Troop75Eagle

5 hours ago, David CO said:

It is not very realistic to expect parents in a scout unit (or any youth activity) to all know each other.  Many parents are very busy.  They just don't have the time.  

I think it is a healthy thing for kids to develop a life outside the family and away from their parents.  The family should be the most important thing in a kid's life, but it shouldn't be the only thing.  

You are correct, but some sort of greater vigilance is required considering the scope and depth of what has occurred over time.  That is, what is known about what occurred.  As in most statistics, they always seem to be a fraction of what happens since embarrassment, fear, shame and pressure silence a lot of these crimes.  

50 minutes ago, David CO said:

Downplaying the horrific child abuse scandal at BSA isn't going to do anyone any good.  It certainly won't stop the lawsuits or the bankruptcy.  

I have two kids, now adults, that were gymnasts. They were not subject to Nassers pedophilic claws but they know others that were.  Gymnast parents and kids know each other very well.  The parents watch like hawks and take notice of oddballs with no kids in gymnastics but seem to relish taking photos of the kids.  The parents watch social media because there are a lot of strangers who want to be ‘friends’ with the kids.  Obviously, in Nasser's case, the system failed.  He was good friends with some, went to parties and had trust.  Some of the parents must have had willful blindness or were just fooled.  There is likewise precedent and concern about high pressure sports and vindictive kids versus coaches.  That is insidious and difficult.

svouts may not have the added dynamics of gymnastics but parents can take a page or two from their experience.  It’s evident that whatever form National and local councils take, trust must be rebuilt and safeguards constantly reviewed.  Parents might do well to be sure they all know each other and be open to the possibility there is a renegade amongst them.  It’s an appalling and depressing thought but it seems it’s warranted.  If we are going to have diversity training, teaching kids the signs of abuse to their person and others needs to be taught along with encouragement that it’s not only ok, but a must to speak up in an appropriate way.  To my way of thinking, this has become more important than diversity training since the consequence would be diverse victims.  
 

one could see how a system could be weaponized against scouts reporting on scouts or scouts against Adults but that is something that has to be accepted and carefully scrutinized.  Having scouts look after each other on social media is a must along with adult review but that’s no easy task either.  Considering the long long history of abuse over millennia, it’s transparent this is an ongoing obligation anywhere kids are involved.  
 

National has a long way to go to rebuild trust, councils are on notice and troop leadership cannot feel exempted.  It’s an ongoing problem that is always under threat just as much as thieves will always be attracted to treasure. 

2 hours ago, yknot said:

I'm also not that worried about the PC aspect unless it''s something that is truly offensive but the scoutmaster title has always given me pause well before I ever heard of issues with it.

I'm probably repeating myself but I have always thought that for an organization with a history of child abuse, any title with "master" in it is maybe not the best choice. I've heard too many jokes and snide comments over the years. It's also headline fodder, like the most recent, horrific one this month in Overland Park. 

I also agree with your opinion that the title encourages certain types of personalities to take the title literally and become authoritative and dictatorial when dealing with youth. Advisor, mentor, guide is more in keeping with what I think the job description is in my opinion. I wouldn't think it matters much but we seem to have ongoing issues with units that struggle with scout led. 

Please also Understand, I mean no pointed attacks towards anyone here in particular. As I have gotten older I see the disdain for change come out in me and dislike for social and cultural upheavals. I certainly know the importance of dignity usefulness of change.  I suppose I rail into the winds but one has to offer rebutted to a cultural energy of constant change that has a lot of negatives. Perspective and measured steps can be useful.  But everyone here exhibits this regularly. 

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I'm also not that worried about the PC aspect unless it''s something that is truly offensive but the scoutmaster title has always given me pause well before I ever heard of issues with it.

I'm probably repeating myself but I have always thought that for an organization with a history of child abuse, any title with "master" in it is maybe not the best choice. I've heard too many jokes and snide comments over the years. It's also headline fodder, like the most recent, horrific one this month in Overland Park. 

I also agree with your opinion that the title encourages certain types of personalities to take the title literally and become authoritative and dictatorial when dealing with youth. Advisor, mentor, guide is more in keeping with what I think the job description is in my opinion. I wouldn't think it matters much but we seem to have ongoing issues with units that struggle with scout led. 

Then we’d best look to a couple more examples to be sure the nuance is well fleshed out.  With  regard to PETA:

...the animal rights organization feels “pet” is a derogatory term and suggested people should stop using it since it is not animal-friendly language. She stated, “A lot of people at home who have dogs or cats will call them ‘pets’ and refer to themselves as ‘owners,’ and this implies that the animals are a possession, like a car, for example, When you refer to animals, not as the living beings they are, but as an inanimate object, it can reflect our treatment on these animals.”

“This isn’t the first time PETA suggests using a new word or phrase for it to be less animal-centric. PETA argued words and idioms that involve meat products are offending vegetarians and vegans. For example, instead of saying “flogging a dead horse” or “killing two birds with one stone,” the organization wants people to say “feeding a fed horse”, or “feeding two birds with one scone.”

So livestock is next, then the word Animal because someone might use it in reference to savage behavior.  
 

Then, let’s look at a corollary to ‘master’ .  We’d best tell the churches and families that the word ‘father’ is no longer acceptable because that too is an authority title, notwithstanding its acceptance across the epoch of time.  Plus, those children’s who lost their fathers or have abusive fathers might be offended or embarrassed and thrown into deep depression when others use the word. we can’t risk it.
 

Boss?  Well, forget that.  Boss man is certainly a throwback to slaves and chain gangs, and prisons.  In fact, prisoner and convict are tools for oppression so they go out too.  I don’t know if anyone who wants to be called prisoner or convict especially if it’s a tool of the oppressive system that puts people down in a judicial and police system that is supposedly so bad that it has to be overhauled.  
 

the examples are countless and the point is that anyone anywhere will find reasons to mangle meaning and words to make themselves feel better and speak for others whether they want it or not.  It’s the idea of claiming the progress is based on the acceptance of a new word without accepting that ANY word can be made and used to sound ugly.  Humans have this odd disconnect between thinking they can change human nature by changing words.  Degenerate-lunatic-imbeciles-maniac-retarded-and so forth.  Psychiatry changes it’s diagnostic manual to capture the evolving understanding of mental disorders.  Each generation changes terms.  If, we, outside of psychiatry, use any of the terms on an everyday basis directed at someone, there is no mistake behind the meaning and intent:  mentally there is something very wrong with them.  Context is certainly important and what makes English complicated.  Certain 4 letter words can be used across the spectrum ranging from hate of a person to sex to admiration of a new idea and so forth.

 I suppose that scoutmaster has consistently meant, the leader of the group  but let’s look at alternatives:

 bossman, Pontifex Maximus, father- scout, fürhrer (which just translates as leader), grand marshal, pasha, sultan, how about king scout (queen scout might be a slap at cross dressers), headman (long accepted term in certain tribes around the world, Shah, Rajah, I would say chief but we know that’s dead in the water in American politics. 

Maybe if we go to the more egalitarian model the communists used in WWI when they had units in France during the revolution of 1917.  They had group elections on whether or not to fight.  Officers were ignored.  So if we do that, nobody is in charge because there is no respected hierarchy.  You see, the second you use words like advisor and mentor they become applicable to adults.  That’s authority and power tier one.  Well, someone has to make decisions, arbitrate and ultimately be a decision maker and arbitrator.  
That means you have to give them some type of easily recognizable designation (presumably that fits into scouting tradition...tradition as a word seems to have become profane in PC culture equaling tyranny, bigotry and narrow mindedness but never mind that).  
 

once you’ve got the designations in place, Bingo!  You’re right back to where you started.  You’ve only swept away understanding and function of one set to start over again because of sensitivity or criticism of others.  The relationship is what is attacked, the system is what is ridiculed, the uniforms, the symbols, the spirit all of it.  The words are a convenience and passive aggressive.  Are you seriously going to change your title as an American because of history and actions of others and the rest of the world mocks you as an American?  Are you going to start saying, maybe I’ll be accepted if I call myself a North American so they’ll think I’m one of the good guys? 
 

scouts is being dismembered make no mistake.  Piece by piece little by little sections get condemned and made into something different and it’s not alone.  I certainly can’t stop it.  But I don’t have to like it or accept it.  It’s an ongoing transmogrified experiment in a Frankensteinian lab run by destructive people and duped lab assistants. 

But I’m a little biased and irked by the whole mess.

3 hours ago, David CO said:

Dress as modern as you wish.  I will still refuse to purchase blue jeans with holes in them.  I don't care how trendy it has become. 

Fashion is a poor example.  Versace and Levi’s come and go because the public taste is fickle.  You might as well try to predict costal sand bar formations.  Its true that words no longer become acceptable: faggot is a piece of firewood, Queer is odd, gay is happy and niggardly apparently is no longer acceptable at all though it has never had and still has no association with anything but the meaning of stingy.  It’s true that language is dynamic and ebbs and flows.  Curiously, however, I’m suspicious who decides what words no longer are valid.  I certainly wasn’t consulted about any changes and resent being told what is and isn’t a valid use of words and language.  Writers in history we revere and respect use language that may be arcane in some cases but that hardly means a whitewash is needed.  Too much of that is going on.  
 

We have traditions, such as the military with titles and ranks that mean something and that are recognized.  We have elected officials and their titles. On a trip in Africa, one lady was aghast when I said “stewardess in the plane” in telling of our trip.  I was asked what century I was from.  For whatever reason, hyper sensitive people sit around thinking up ways to change words because someone, somewhere might not like the sound of it, might be offended or because the might think it sounds better.  Worse still, some think up reasons to change words because others should be offended even if they aren’t.  The trouble with all these changes is that in this day and age and in this country in particular, individuals outdo one another in speeding up the changes.  
 

He and she Now have subcategories all the way down to referring to human beings as ‘it’.  No gender, no identity, only an expressed desire to be an ‘it’.  I’m not starting a debate on the topic of transgender, but that subject reflects the hyper radicalization of identity politics and language evolution on a meteoric scale.  Not everything ought to be subject to the fickle changes like fashion or, apparently, gender.  Scoutmaster ought to be good enough without linguistic tinkerers going to town.  We might not choose Gruppenführer for good reason.  But scouts has traditions and names just like the military and elected offices.  It’s ok to have some predictability.

On 7/18/2020 at 1:01 AM, yknot said:

Is it being disenfranchised or is it an opposition to everything that is part of Western culture, which the BLM website actually states?  I have colleagues from overseas whose diction over the phone is indistinguishable from anyone else who shares their nationality. You would only know their skin color if they were sitting in front of you face to face. In the United States, that is not the reality.  Students come here from Africa where their only classroom is a dirt yard underneath a tree, and yet they are able to succeed in our educational and university system where native born students struggle. Here, we have spent trillions trying to improve educational outcomes and yet we still have failing school systems.  BLM wants us to divert billions away from law enforcement to community services. Some of it makes sense. Police are ill equipped to deal with mental health issues, which is a growing crisis in our country. But the idea that more money will truly solve the issues that plague our disenfranchised communities is worthy of skepticism.  I despise that this is constantly framed as a race issue. To me it is an American issue. We cannot continue to leave generations of young Americans behind and expect to be a functional and thriving country. I just do not think that BLM's strategies will solve anything other than further divide us. 

Embracing long established Scouting tradition, working one on one with individuals and groups to bring friendship and change and desiring social stability do not equal bigotry.  Being called Narrow minded certainly smacks of that.  Having the opinion that the BLM organization has become a type of malignancy that is metastasizing into something that is very unhealthy for ALL us not narrow minded or bigotry.  
 

An Organization might start with a just or worthy cause, but they can morph into something that delegitimizes itself based on actions, statements and patterns.  In recent years, any statements of caution, concern, alarm or opposition to groups that have different ideas (just basic ideas) are met with hysterics and brands of bigotry being hurled by social groups.  Any dissent is somehow an existential threat to their collective whole that cannot even be permitted to be voiced without swift and immediate opposition.  Rabble rousing Groups can play that game for a while, but they gain no credibility and after a while, they are just laughed at and ignored.  They torpedo the very people they claimed to help and thoroughly alienate the vast majority of citizens.  They certainly do not set good examples for scouts except as an illustration of what not to do and how chaos is not the best guide. In this limited application, they do prove useful.

2 hours ago, MattR said:

@TAHAWK, why are you shouting? I can read regular sized font more easily than the large font.

Could be cut and paste

On 6/28/2020 at 8:04 PM, skeptic said:

I say again, "nonsense".  Let me add, "rubbish", and "give me a break", and "stop building mountains from molehills".  Tradition has its place, and this is one that deserves to remain.  

I agree.  This is how political correctness takes root and flourishes.  I mean no disrespect to the previous commenting author. It’s true that terms come and go.  Psychiatry has marvelous examples of this.  For whatever bizarre reason, people or rather some individuals begin to decide that a term no longer is suitable.  There is a PhD thesis somewhere waiting to be made on this linguistic phenomenon.  Search and destroy gets changed to sweep and clear, soldier of fortune and mercenary get changed to contractor, problems get changed to challenges and opportunities, in Tampa, now the word ‘thug’ is alleged to be racist (though looking in the history of the word and synonyms I have yet to understand how that is possible)...the list goes on and absurdities have mounted.

the only reason I can think of that scout master is somehow wrong, is that the term master has become the newest target.  Master Blacksmith, master blade smith, etc all have the distinction of...mastery at ones craft.  Master craftsman, journeyman apprentice.  Master of ceremonies, master at arms, master sergeant, master chief, and as you know it goes on.  How the word master has fallen afoul of a solid meaning and use is beyond me.
 

 I get that people project meaning into terms. Here,  It could be master and slave, and couple that with sex abuse...well you get the idea.  What I fail to understand is how certain people of groups hijack the English language and take it upon themselves to redefine what is acceptable or not.  The very fact that people have to quibble over the title used successfully and without nefarious meaning for all this time demonstrates the human propensity to simply try to re-invent the wheel.  Humans can and  will take any word and make it sound ugly.  The problem often isn’t the word, it’s the intent and manner of the user. We have numerous multiple meanings and uses of the same words and ideas for all sorts of situations, often in contradiction.  People might say that words matter.  They certainly can, but it’s how they are used.  Why scoutmaster?  Sounds to me like people took a look at scouting after all these controversies and saw an untouched paradise of ways to arbitrarily tell others what terms mean, should mean, or could mean.  Heaven forbid that it is continually used as it is understood. 

14 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

"I said," Newsome told the host, "if this country doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it. All right? And I could be speaking ... figuratively. I could be speaking literally. It's a matter of interpretation."

"I just want black liberation and black sovereignty, by any means necessary."

 

I just love that "by any means necessary."  Like they invented it.  Do they know why Malcolm X was murdered and by whom?

 

Having been sentenced to hang for "treason" against "our one true Republic of Ohio" by the "common law" "True Supreme Cpourt of Ohio,"  I take a dim view of "sovereign" types of any color or ethnicity. 

Given history and the other systems, I believe we are on the right track in the U.S. and oppose "burning down this system" in favor of the  Red Terror.  But that's just me and some tens or hundreds of millions of others. I would never get elected to City Council in Portland.  

Sixty years ago,  I thought I would never live to see a Black President, the collapse of the Soviet union, the end of Boy Scouts, or theoretically sane people calling for eliminating police departments, courts, prisons, and the entire concept of "crime."   Not to mention a statute of Frederick Douglass toppled by "woke" White college "virtue signalers," who don't even know who he was or what he did.   Yet here we are. 

I know the older are traditionally not always pleased with the younger.  I am an old fogey.  Plus, I taught history.  Ignorance seems to me to be a prime requirement for our young  "enlightened" revolutionaries.  Here's a clue from 1970.  Riots don't always end well for the rioters, and I don't mean just  your lower face, neck, and chest covered with your own mucus from CS gas, but really bad endings.

As Saddam learned, make credible enough threats and someone may take you up on your offer and "move forward."  

 

 

14 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

"I said," Newsome told the host, "if this country doesn't give us what we want, then we will burn down this system and replace it. All right? And I could be speaking ... figuratively. I could be speaking literally. It's a matter of interpretation."

"I just want black liberation and black sovereignty, by any means necessary."

 

I just love that "by any means necessary."  Like they invented it.  Do they know why Malcolm X was murdered and by whom?

 

Having been sentenced to hang for "treason" against "our one true Republic of Ohio" by the "common law" "True Supreme Cpourt of Ohio,"  I take a dim view of "sovereign" types of any color or ethnicity. 

Given history and the other systems, I believe we are on the right track in the U.S. and oppose "burning down this system" in favor of the  Red Terror.  But that's just me and some tens or hundreds of millions of others. I would never get elected to City Council in Portland.  

Sixty years ago,  I thought I would never live to see a Black President, the collapse of the Soviet union, the end of Boy Scouts, or theoretically sane people calling for eliminating police departments, courts, prisons, and the entire concept of "crime."   Not to mention a statute of Frederick Douglass toppled by "woke" White college "virtue signalers," who don't even know who he was or what he did.   Yet here we are. 

I know the older are traditionally not always pleased with the younger.  I am an old fogey.  Plus, I taught history.  Ignorance seems to me to be a prime requirement for our young  "enlightened" revolutionaries.  Here's a clue from 1970.  Riots don't always end well for the rioters, and I don't mean just  your lower face, neck, and chest covered with your own mucus from CS gas, but really bad endings.

As Saddam learned, make credible enough threats and someone may take you up on your offer and "move forward."  

 

 

You post good information, but it won’t make any difference I suspect.  I’ve seen a lot of his replies over time and the terms apologist and provocateur come to mind.  Naturally, he would disagree. But I’m not the first to make this observation.

It’s a pity. There are many people that care about scouting, it’s traditions, it’s mission and it’s people.  There are so many people dedicated to making one on one differences in the lives of others of all social classes and ethnicities.  I and those I know are among those who are many of those traits.  Yet, because we disdain chaos and destruction that groups like BLM have come to symbolize and through their actions, even if not at first, we are branded narrow minded and with the mark of Cain.  It’s no wonder scouts is being torn asunder.  
 

You are a satisfactory apologist for BLM.  I’m sure they would welcome your analysis.  You speak meaningfully for a portion of their reality. For many many others, they and their ilk will become a social rabble eager to disrupt increasingly For disruptions sake.  There will be sighing, shaking of heads, and standing back indifferently as they do their thing as one more instance of an out of control portion of the population.  Not everyone of course, and I make no common cause and have no patience for alt right reactionaries either.  But the actions will increasingly reflect a lack of discipline and sloppy impulse control that garners the reaction, ‘well, what else is new. What did you expect?’ 

2 hours ago, Navybone said:

Right, but you can protest it and bring attention to it.  Not all protest are riots.  Most are not, most are peaceful.  

You are correct.  The right of protesting is not at issue.  But what comes with this particular group, it’s allies among anarchists and politically correct culture certainly is at issue. People will demand change without useful or reasonable  suggestions. When the actions of a group and it’s affiliates and associates, embraced or not, resort to torching and looting, they are branded.  That is what is remembered. The shop keepers who watch their livelihoods wipes out because people decide to take their down payment on this generations desires for reparations rather than protest.  Insurance doesn’t cover it.

when hysterical shrieks about methods of policing are made but little is done to cross the divide:  eg. not joining police or  suggesting useful policing changes that don’t lower standards for officers to the point of absurdity.  Or, additionally, they  ask for special dispensation from the laws...don’t pull over certain groups for speeding because we get pulled over to much.  

statements about getting what we want or burn the whole system down.  

when situations like Seattle’s CHOP episode where police were withdrawn and crime spiked 525% including shootings, rape and sexual assault.  This paints the picture and brands the group.  It sticks and becomes the expected result of the group.  It makes no difference who is at fault at this point.  People see the consequence of the out of control protesters.  People see the mob violence and the name that goes with it.

the consequences might be that even more people get gun permits, expand castle doctrines and stand your ground laws.  It’s-just as much their right to address the threats head on.  But really, it becomes something different.

 There is cause for complaint, the right to seek redress, the right to protest, but tantrum behavior de-legitimizes all of it.  Instead, you’ll get situations like Seattle.  The adults will pull back and form a ‘play pen’ for the protestors, now  turned renegades, to burn themselves out, savage and defile entire neighborhoods then go away feeling self righteous.  What follows after is a much more potent tool and successful method of managing a problem since generations of social and policy changes, laws and funding have not achieved much.  Well earned indifference.    

3 hours ago, David CO said:

The key to propaganda isn't in telling 20,000 lies.  It is telling the same lie 20,000 times.  BLM keeps repeating the boldfaced lie that the United States is, at its very heart and soul, a racist country, and that everything we do is motivated by bigotry.

Indeed, That is far beyond just the trait of expressed racism.  That suggests that the whole system from inception is so flawed (and anti black) that it has to be destroyed and rebuilt with them in mind in whatever self image they have.  (Far be it from me to try to guess what that image might be).  Suffice to say, that the very unique institutions of our government which we are familiar with:

Rule of Law

Free and Fair elections

Separation of powers

Independent Judiciary

Houses elected bodies and executive 

Clearly defined transition and successions of power 

Civilian oversight of our military 

And Bill of rights, among many other traits,  are so bad and twisted as to be required to be scrapped.  

When you look at every other system of government, the choices are such that the narrative and choices BLM would suggest are puzzling. (if indeed they could Articulate a comprehensive one on a rational basis with reason, logic and foresight)

As we know, The institutions and processes we have were not designed for hysterical knee jerk and orgiastic tearing up of systems in order to achieve a status for one living generation.  Instead, the system was designed to gradually allow changes over time among successive generations in a smooth way.  The trauma of the French Revolution was enough to warn enlightened minds of the dangers of the mob and destruction it always brings.  The French, Russian, Chinese and Iranian Revolutions demonstrate just how chaos and a grabbastic desire for rapidly changing the status quo made lives worse, greater oppression for all and the end consequence of pariah states.  

Zimbabwe showed how a revolution resulted in decades of incompetence, starvation, hyper-inflation (really too generous a word for it), and political oppression set the new standard for excellence.  Now, after expropriation and ‘reparations’ they can’t even work the fields to feed themselves after decades of apparently being incapable of learning how to do it and have tried to woo back the farmers they ran out of the country.

of course, the argument will be immediately fielded that nothing has changed, people are discriminated against and when they are dying they have nothing to lose.  When one looks at 1776 &1779 to the present, I think that history reflects just a few changes here and there.

But in all this, I may be a little biased towards our system.

I’m reading about the fall of the Roman Republic.  If this paragraph isn’t a commentary on our time, I don’t know what is.  This is not the formula of balance of powers, power sharing, and the calm head of a functional government.  Such a state of affairs is the product of hatred.  How this can work with teaching citizenship and American institutions that have made our republic more successful than dictatorships and other forms of govt is a big question.  

14 minutes ago, Navybone said:

Stone Mountain is literally the largest monument on earth dedicated to honoring the men who betrayed their country to enslave an entire race due to their skin.  The taliban blew up statues because Islam considers any representation of the human as offensive.  Both of these instances illustrate how narrow the thinking of a culture or people can be.   Are you in agreement that Stone Mountain should be preserved because is it something the US wants to celebrate or honor.   That the South’s effort to break away from the United States over the desire to preserve slavery is something we want to solemnize, and that is it is something we want our children to commemorate and recognize in anything other than repudiation of racism? 

I believe destroying monuments is absurd on its face.  The Taliban destroyed them because it was offensive to them. The idea is that it was offensive to their sensibilities.  The fact it was idolatry in Islam is irrelevant. It was just as important to them as a sensibility as others find Stone Mountain offensive or Mount Rushmore.  
 

vultural and artistic achievements have been Swept away and destroyed because of cultural relativism and people in one era.  They deny the future the concrete understanding and review of what was done. Destroying culture and art because it offends people is outrageous.  If one wants to do that, then every neonazi is fully justified in defacing everything they don’t like.  

8 minutes ago, Navybone said:

There are 17 different items BLM is supporting In their mission.  You have identified one and disparage the rest of the organization and their goals for that?  And it does NOT call for the destruction of the family, rather it calls for recognition that extended families and villages have a significant pace in today’s society.  Do we not want equality under law for all Americans, regardless of race?  Do we not understand that a significant portion of our population is disenfranchised and there is room and opportunity to heal the Division that occurs.  
 

And for Duckworth, her comments are for being willing to having a dialogue.  Do we not want open discussion and debate?  Are we so closed minded?  Cultural Marxism is a new-con wet- dream to encourage right wing conservative government, not an engaged government willing to talk to the people, and understand their concerns. 
 

what are you listening to?  

There comes a point, right or wrong, good or bad, that organizations are too controversial to be taken seriously.  The Nazi Party, Communist Party, Red Arrow Party, Black Panthers, and a host of other political parties and movements become branded.  BLM is rapidly approaching that status whether they want it or not. They get the distinction of being a lightning rod and all that comes with that.  
 

fo a lot of people, they are no longer credible.  In this circumstance, it doesn’t matter whose fault it is.  Perceptions are powerful and stick, often permanently,  so when one asks what are you willing to listen to, that is a question that isn’t always easy to answer.  
 

a group can have all the most reasonable and sensible ideas in the world. But if they are perceived as an enemy trying to rip apart social order, then none of that matters.  

1 hour ago, Navybone said:

There is a huge difference between whose who loot/riot and those who protest.  And why are the riots occurring?   And for the monuments, specifically the ones honoring confederate leaders or soldiers, do you not understand why they want them removed?  Is it too much to ask they they want a statue of a person or representation that honors, or remembers, or celebrates the subjugation is a single person due to the color of their skin removed.  

Understanding why they want them removed is all well and good.  But that is a slippery slope for several reasons:

there is no limit to hurt feelings and desire to eliminate symbols placed in a public forum.  Native Americans despise Mt Rushmore and want it gone, the protestors apparently don’t want symbols of anyone having anything to do with slavery around as the destruction of Jefferson and Washington clearly illustrated.  Stone Mountain is one of the biggest monuments in earth but protestors would just assume blow it up.  
 

Like it or not, this is cultural purging and a point when one group attempts to erase public display of history in a whirlwind of action riding high on emotion. Frankly, they could take a page from the Taliban playbook.  They blew up ancient Buddhist behemoths because it was offensive to Islam.  The various churches over time have destroyed or marred art because it was offensive to sensibilities,  

religate them to museums, some say, well that isn’t the point.  Public display where anyone can see them at anytime is what is important. Statues that invite thought, good or ill is the idea.  Cultural revolutions happen and sweep away history and art in an orgiastic frenzy certain of their righteousness. 
 

this gets to a point where it’s no longer about protesting figures and the history with it, but denying anyone else The chance to observe and reflect on their own time in public places.  This denies those individuals whose families are steeped deep in American history on different sides of the equation back to colonization a chance to see their ancestors and markers in an open public place always accessible. 
 

this creates a festering and gangrenous problem that will only antagonize dudes over time. 

28 minutes ago, elitts said:

Well, in the context of what BLM is arguing for, I think that's measurably true.  My grandmother's generation (Silent Generation) was "accidentally" racist enough to be horrifying sometimes (and that ignores any deliberate racism).  My parent's generation (Boomers) were better, but if you look at the time period they've been "in power" they certainly haven't spent much time or effort to fix or work toward fixing the issue; but at least the Boomers started to be cognizant that there is actually a problem.  Gen X is only just now getting to the high table of politics, so we don't really know what they'll manage once they can overcome the existing political inertia.  The <40 folks (maybe even <30) are the ones that are fully engaged on the issue and energized about it, so from the viewpoint of "Who is most likely to drive us towards fixing this" standpoint, they are "the best hope".

 

I’m one of the Gen x’ers at 52 y/o.  From a Cynical standpoint, my generation will inherit a massive amount of wealth.  In fact, the biggest transfer of wealth in history I’ve read.  Society at large has thumbed its nose at X’ers for a variety of reasons.  I can say that we, among anyone with a lot of ‘skin’ in the game asset wise have a certain tolerance for social justice but also severe distrust of institutions and established religions.  Sympathy is free, but when it comes to political change to grab assets....

22 hours ago, yknot said:

According to the laws, ICE detainees may contact pro bono legal advisors, consulates, and certain nongovernmental agencies free of charge. Fees often apply for calls to family, which is where some of the problems occur if detainees don't have access to cash. Each detainee is also assigned a case officer. Detainees don't disappear but they can be left twisting in a dysfunctional and overloaded system. Situations like Guantanamo Bay however are completely different. People have been held there incommunicado which is why there was such pressure to close it. 

That’s good to know.  It is continually a frustrating state of affairs to not be able to strip away subtle hype or slightly different meanings of words to get at the true picture.  Still, no matter how one slices it, getting caught up in such a system is a grim prospect.

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

 " It's ironic that a country founded by rebels now has such a strong contingent of folks who think conformity is what we should be teaching in schools.  I can't think this is really an isolated issue though, since pretty much EVERY generation in every country throughout history has thought their younger generations were full of silly liberal nonsense."

 I lived through "No freedom of speech for Communists," to see "No freedom of speech for anyone other than us [SBLM, Anarchists,  and/or socialists.]"  I think conformity to an authoritarian paradigm, right or left, or racial, should NOT be taught in schools.  It should be THE place where opposing ideas are compared - not repressed.  Now university professors are fired for expressing opinions as shocking as "All lives matter" or "captalism is not inherently evil."  Berkeley was the center of the "Free Speech Movement" during the Vietnam blunder.  Now any speech not conforming to the current PC is met with Molotov Cocktails and clubs.  

The current political silliness-de-jour is about as illiberal as possible.  NOT " I disagree with what you say but defend your right to say it" INSTEAD: " I disagree with what you say, so you are not allowed to say it."  And this obscenity is tacitly support by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"LIberal,"like "progressive" and "blue,." is makeup on a pig.   Woodrow Wilson, THE 'liberal" "progressive," imprisoned political opponents and encouraged mobs to attack those whose ideas he disliked.  Sound familiar?

Meanwhile, the Black-on-Black slaughter in the cities -  run for decades on a one-party system  - is merely background noise for the "Woke" and their political, media, and entertainment allies. 

The statute of Frederick Douglass is torn down by the "enlightened."  FREDERICK DOUGLASS !   An ignorance so profound in the young is not "silly."  

 

It’s always remarkable to see and hear those people that want to censor content. I must add that the seemingly endless capacity of the web to bring a tsunami of news, the ability of people to cut paste, hijack, make fake accounts, troll and who knows what else without accountability of any kind is beyond the capacity of mortals to sort through.  
 

upon a time, intellectual, philosophical and academic study and publication was lengthy, in depth and had to be defended one on one.  There was a long stretch of time when professionals dedicated to investigative journalism and history were respected and brought greater clarity to perspective and understanding.

True, there have always been anonymous publications like the Federalist papers, Pseudonyms and the like.  True, the rumor mills are as old as speech itself.  And other creative avenues of disinformation like, “subsequent intelligence found after a military operation that happens to square nicely with justifications but that has to be classified.”

upon a time, critical thinking, logic, reason, and other skills were important.  Now, however, those skills and accountability appear more impediments and irritations that upset a perspective.  I have come to see fanaticism and intolerance as true enemies of this society.  I have seen the resurgence of anti-Semitism and anti-Catholicism awaken again like a bout of sleeping malaria which shocks me.  I see now forces and borderline anarchy wanting to dismember the fabric of the entire social spectrum and crazy talk of civil wars. ( a topic I write about elsewhere as absurd).  
 

This response I’m writing here isn’t so much about the Academy ideas as it is about the strange and toxic mixes of disinformation, social order and our capacity to sift through it.

 The threatening nature of ideas, the desire to silence speech and its content, the immediate categorization of those who might disagree as reactionary, racist, oppressive and mean spirited (among many other colorful metaphors) all point to a type of fanaticism that must constantly be tempered.  That seems a tall order for now.

19 hours ago, thrifty said:

I don't know anything about ICE but this just sounds like media spin.  FBI.gov FBI Citizens Academy  says "Our Citizens Academy programs are engaging six-to-eight-week programs that give business, religious, civic, and community leaders an inside look at the FBI. Classes meet in the evenings at FBI field offices around the country. The mission of the FBI Citizens Academies is to foster a greater understanding of the role of federal law enforcement in the community through frank discussion and education. Candidates are nominated by FBI employees, former Citizens Academy graduates, and community leaders. Participants are selected by the special agent in charge of the local FBI field office. To find out more about an FBI Citizens Academy in your area, contact your local field office"

edit: I'd like to add that with regards to the FBI, it's not a new program created because of the current unrest.  I can only assume that many civic leaders have had the opportunity to attend the program if they chose to.

I am no so sure, govt has a website on it:

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ice-hsi-tampa-graduates-latest-citizens-academy

I do think the citizen academies are an excellent idea, but how much oversight and stern warnings are given is pretty important.  I didn’t know about FBI but I’d love that.  Civilian involvement itself is a good type of oversight.  Walled off, police agencies can take on the unsettling character of secret police.  Conversely, subtly incorporating the citizens to do some of the ground work that evades the scrutiny the agencies are under can be a dangerous thing too.  All in all, I think civilian involvement is a good opportunity for patriotism and a watchdog on govt.  seems like many civilians are really good citizens and not ideologues, but the danger is there.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/ice-launching-citizens-academy-course-how-agency-arrests-immigrants-1516656%3famp=1
 

seems we have the offer of Posse training available.

40 minutes ago, yknot said:

You really can't compare EU to the US, or US to China or US to Russia. The cultures and experiences are very different. The EU in general is more tolerant of such things as drugs, prostitution, and other soft crimes. There is a debate whether the US should be as tough as it is. In addition, European and Asian societies are generally more orderly and respectful of authority figures than the US. But one of the reasons why our incarceration rate is higher is because our rates of hard crime are higher. The murder rate in the US is three times that of the EU; our burglary rate is four times as high. We have seven times the burglary rate of China. When it comes to capital punishment, however, we rank the same. The other problem when trying to compare international statistics on anything whether it's crime, education, or economic indicators is that the US is far more transparent than virtually all other societies. In our legal system, for example, if you are arrested, it becomes part of the public record. People do not just disappear the way they do in places like China and Russia. 

 

My understanding is that with our immigration service  ‘ICE’, being arrested and held incommunicado for some length of time is actually allowed.  That puts a deep chill on things.  If we nab people overstaying visas like the recent student directives and not staying here in to attend class in person a certain % of time, we invite reciprocation.  That is akin to the infamous and obnoxious preventative detention used by police states.  Non us citizens and green card holders are exempt.  Students overstaying allowed time and not understanding what is going on and with weak command of English, let alone comprehension of laws, could be in a bad way.

2 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

"So now they wander the streets,  get arrested in droves and get no treatment til they are jailed again briefly and released."

 

Every Winter around here, several are found dead from hypothermia.  

There was one in OKC a few years back.  That shocked me.  I guess I just never heard about such things yet thinking on it, it must happen all the time.  They just get carted to the medical examiner and it’s marked hear disease, complications from diabetes or such like.  Unless the word leaks out that it was exposure, one wouldn’t notice.  I don’t think I’ve ever heard of starvation being one

Although I tend to be libertarian, this is one of those areas that free markets has a hard time appropriately dealing with.  Having custody over other human beings who are not able or allowed to do anything creates an unsettling opportunities for exploitation and profit incentive that minimize of ignore the social benefits.  If prisons and mental hospitals simply warehouse people for payments from the state, the rehabilitation, training, therapies and re-integration is too expensive to achieve profit margins.  
 

This isn’t especially about scouting Or it’s current myriad dilemmas but as a matter of civic and ethical responsibility for ones fellow countrymen and women, it can set the example of human worth and how to deal with issues the young will face.

16 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

Cuyahoga County, Ohio, [Cleveland and suburbs] murder capital of Ohio, once had a "farm" out on the east end of the county (AKA "Workhouse").  Prisoners worked in the gardens, learned landscape gardening and learned how to farm .  It was closed about twenty-five years ago on the grounds that, as most of the inmates were Black, it was a 'slave plantation."  Of course, no one asked the inmates, becasue they didn't matter, as is the case with those slaughtered by civilians in today's urban "centers." The acreage was turned ointo large office buildings, hospitals, and an "up scale" shopping center, to the great enrichment of politically-connected "developers."  The "developers" wear masks today, as they should have back then.

Slave camp huh.  Well, that doesn’t surprise me.  There will never be a shortage of people ready to destroy things and replace them with nothing or replace them with more cynical objectives.  The closest comparison outside of jails and farms are the big state mental hospitals that closed up.  The idea was to cut costs, preserve civil and human rights and curb abuses.  The alternative was to create community outpatient centers for treatment and support.  The places were shut down but the latter never was achieved.  So now they wander the streets,  get arrested in droves and get no treatment til they are jailed again briefly and released.  
 

I think the state hospitals were also self sufficient.  But they too were labeled as unfair competition.  Private institutions don’t have the same structures in place and I suspect zero incentive for self sufficiency which would give residents focus, structure and some purpose.  Once again, a public interest has been swept aside.  The consequences have been stigmatized people, transformation to habitual criminals and anything but preservation of a dignified and productive life.