CynicalScouter
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Posts posted by CynicalScouter
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9 minutes ago, PeterHopkins said:
Since I value your insight on this, is the BSA doing enough today to avoid rising to the level of being negligent?
Here is going to be the problem: what is BSA doing to ensure compliance?
BSA can have all the YP videos in the world, all the training in the world, but if leaders are not a) being reported and b) shoved out the door, who cares?
That's why data is critical: how many incidents of YP violations? What happened to the offenders? How severe was the YP violation? Etc.
One reason I suspect BSA is NOT willing to release this information is that it will show a) abuse is NOT in fact being reported to the police (mandatory reporting language in BSA material aside) b) abuse is not being reported AT ALL.
Like I said: if you find a council that reports 0 YP violations (major OR minor) in a given year, either clone that Scout Executive (because he/she reached perfection) or launch an audit because the data is garbage.
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1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:
- Who is the BSA board?
- Who is in charge of YP for BSA? Either paid professional, volunteer committee members, or both. I'll take any.
- How many occurrences/how prevalent is child sexual abuse in scouting today?
Hiding. Hiding. Hiding.
Hey @fred8033: Rather than just downvoting me, can you answer any of these three basic questions about BSA and YP?
Or is the down vote your only answer?
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5 minutes ago, PeterHopkins said:
Is it possible for the BSA (or any youth-serving organization) to have youth protection rules so robust that they could successfully defend an action in a state court?
Yes.
BSA is NOT being sued or claimed filed because sexual abuse happened in scouting.
They are being sued because DUE TO BSA's NEGLIGENCE scouts were abused.
If BSA can show in a state court case they took all due diligence all reasonable precautions to prevent the abuse (and it happened anyway) that could be a sufficient defense to a negligence claim.
Whether they reached that point in any given case is to be determined by a judge and jury.
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1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said:
Hmm, no mention of him or a Director of Youth Protection in 2019 BSA Form 990.
https://paddockpost.com/2021/08/25/executive-compensation-at-boy-scouts-of-america/
That doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't there. The IRS 990 only requires reporting the highest paid employees and staff. His salary may have been below the reporting threshold.
But the fact that you and I, relatively savvy scouters, cannot even figure this out speaks volumes, no?
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46 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
Who is in charge of YP for BSA? Either paid professional, volunteer committee members, or both. I'll take any.
By the way, to prove my point, lets look at other organizations that have had massive child sexual abuse scandals, shall we?
- Catholic Church: Full committee plus listing of professional staff for Bishops' Committee on the Protection of Children and Young People https://www.usccb.org/committees/protection-children-young-people/committee
- USA Gymnastics: Shelba Waldron, Director of Safe Sport Education and Policy at USA Gymnastics. https://usagym.org/pages/post.html?PostID=22770 and since they also use the U.S. Center for Safe Sport as their outside auditor/monitor https://uscenterforsafesport.org/about/senior-leadership-team/
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Just now, RememberSchiff said:
Sorry about that. Guess I will have to dig further.
From August, 2019
I got his out-of-office-I-no-longer-work-here message in February 2021. I was told he left even earlier than that.
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1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said:
Michael Johnson, Director Youth Protection Boy Scouts of America National Office
Left 6 months ago.
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BSA not exactly being forthcoming with membership numbers. Shocker.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ascouting.org+"Key+Performance+Indicator+Report"
They released
- December 2019 data on January 9, 2020 or thereabouts https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/commissioner/newsletter/2020_fall/KPI_NatlRegion.pdf
- July 2020 data on August 12 or thereabouts http://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/commissioner/pdf/KPI_NatlRegion.pdf
- September 2020 data on October 12 (or thereabouts) https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/commissioner/newsletter/2020_fall/KPI_NatlRegion.pdf
- December 2020 data on January 11, 2021 (or thereabouts) http://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/commissioner/newsletter/2021_winter/KPI_NatlRegion.pdf
And then...nothing.
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7 minutes ago, fred8033 said:
Just wrong. Wrong.
- Who is the BSA board?
- Who is in charge of YP for BSA? Either paid professional, volunteer committee members, or both. I'll take any.
- How many occurrences/how prevalent is child sexual abuse in scouting today?
Hiding. Hiding. Hiding.
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6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:
Heck, they made the Pinto. They negligently killed thousands and hid the facts. They should be humiliated further for it.
Let's take that example. I am not asking for BSA to release HISTORICAL data, Pinto-era data
But if BSA really, really is taking sexual abuse in scouting seriously NOW, prove it. Show us the data for NOW (or this year and the last few, Catholic Church is 5, I think USA Gymnastics is 3)
BSA shouldn't have to be ordered by the court to do so.
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3 minutes ago, fred8033 said:
show me youth serving organizations that are posting those numbers on their home page?
Show me a youth serving organization with tens of thousands of victims. Catholic Church? Yep, and they put it in an annual report. USA Gymnastics? They have agreed to do so as part of their bankruptcy. BSA? No way, fighting it tooth and claw.
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15 minutes ago, fred8033 said:
TCC statements sound like self-hype to misdirect away from the negligent revictimization of promising huge settlements.
TCC never did that. You are mistaking them for the Coalition. TCC never promised huge settlements. They simply promised to do what the are legally required to do as appointees of the U.S. Trustee: maximize benefits for all similarly situated (read: child sexual abuse) claimants.
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15 minutes ago, PeterHopkins said:
Each council should have a web page that is easily linked from its home page. That page might read: During 2020, we proudly served xx,xxx youth members. While it is our goal to keep safeguards in place that minimize the risk that a youth will become a victim of abuse while participating in Scouting activities, some participants may deviate from the barriers to abuse set by the BSA and perpetrate crimes against our youth members. The following summarizes incidents of sexual abuse during Scouting activities reported to us during 2020:
I'll say this: while I would LIKE that level of detail (council by council) I would at LEAST like the Catholic Church model of those data points reported NATIONALLY and historically (Catholic Church goes back 5 years, that's fine).
BSA says "No way! You don't get data from us (without a court order)! Child sexual abuse is being addressed in BSA, but you don't get any data. TRUST US."
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12 minutes ago, PeterHopkins said:
THAT is what CynicalScouter (I think) means by reporting. (If I got it wrong, I hope he will politely let me know. I think HelpfulTracks is sincere about wanting to address this, and we should take this opportunity to get him to run this up the flagpole.)
You got it exactly right.
BSA is in hide mode.
- Who is the BSA board? No listing on the scouting.org website. The ONLY and let me repeat ONLY youth serving not for profit that is true for that I can find.
- Who is in charge of YP for BSA? I can find that information for every diocese in the U.S. I can find that info at the national level as well. BSA? Nope. Hide, hide, hide.
- How many occurrences/how prevalent is child sexual abuse in scouting today? We know the IV files have not gone away. We know there is a reporting system. Will BSA share the data as the Catholic church does (at least at the national level)? Nope. Not without a court ordering it to do so.
But remember. BSA's learned its lesson about child sexual abuse. It's being open and honest.
So I have a challenge for @HelpfulTracks. Here, now, today, this minute: can you answer and of these three using ONLY resources available to the general public? Not any insider knowledge you may have.
- Who is the BSA board?
- Who is in charge of YP for BSA? Either paid professional, volunteer committee members, or both. I'll take any.
- How many occurrences/how prevalent is child sexual abuse in scouting today?
Show me how transparent and open BSA really is about child sexual abuse TODAY. Not in the past. TODAY.
Let's see if BSA learned any lessons other than "hide, hide, hide".
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4 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:
No the legal case is not about punishing BSA...it is about the BSA looking to survive via bankruptcy by giving the least amount they can legally get away with to survivors.
Yep. And remember: the BSA plans including NOTHING about how to prevent future abuse. The BSA had to be forced by the TCC to include these provisions.
That's why I am saying BSA still doesn't get it and still doesn't take YP seriously. They have convinced themselves they are perfect.
They are in for a court-ordered rude awakening.
Thanks again to the TCC.
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30 minutes ago, fred8033 said:
"inform parents" ... does not follow. I've been a member for my whole life without seeing any of the reported numbers ... even in the last few years. The reported numbers are reported to channels; not members. ... Are you saying the Catholic church numbers are sent directly to each member?
I am saying here, now, I can determine whether the Catholic Church is doing better/worse at preventing and reporting child sexual abuse. Right now. Just a click away. https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/2019-Annual-Report-Final.pdf
I am saying here, now, I can determine the professional in each diocese/local level whose sole purpose is to ensure the safety of my child from sexual abuse. Right now. Just a click away. https://www.usccb.org/node/25794
I am saying here, now, I can determine the list at the national level of who it is that is responsible for reviewing and implementing child safety from sexual abuse the the Roman Catholic Church in America . Right now. Just a click away. https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/2019-Annual-Report-Final.pdf
And BSA? Hide. Hide. Hide.
Data? Not collected or if it is collect it isn't reported. Hiding.
Professional in each diocese (local council) dedicated to making sure the child sexual abuse of the past doesn't happen again? Nope.
Who at the national level are those responsible for YP? No names. No contact information. No listings. Hiding.
82,500 claims of sexual abuse and the BSA still doesn't get it.
That's ok, the TCC is going to make sure they do.
30 minutes ago, fred8033 said:If TCC lawyers wants to protect children, TCC should focus on legislation for all youth organizations.
First of all, it isn't the TCC lawyers. It is the 9 survivors of BSA-induced child sexual abuse that are pushing this. You want to tell those victims to go away? Ignore them? Go ahead.
Second, the TCC is NOT legally obligated and has no authority outside the realm of the BSA bankruptcy to pursue anything about legislation.
Third, the individual members of the TCC in their personal capacities have made clear that they will be pushing for legislative reforms.
Again, thank you TCC. BSA wasn't about to do anything without you and a court order.
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1 minute ago, Sentinel947 said:
I do love his sense of humor. Any idea what they actually asked him to produce?
Not precisely. We know what other parties involved with how the claims were generated have been asked for and I would assume Kosnoff was asked many/most/all the same questions.
We may eventually see a copy of the subpoena, but not yet.
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2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:
Well at least I take comfort in your confidence and affection for the Catholic church. I do appreciate that.
What I am saying is that from my perspective, the Catholic Church is using a reporting system that BSA should emulate.
Like BSA, the Church only got there after thousands of abused children, bankruptcy, and court orders.
It is a shame it will take a court order for BSA to do what is necessary to protect children and inform parents.
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Kosnoff got hit with a subpoena!
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Back to the topic: YPT Changes in TCC Proposal
I am really, really looking forward to the Evaluating Entity going and cleaning house in BSA.
I've already shown what that can look like in the context of the Catholic Dioceses. But USA Gymnastics and its bankruptcy has some ideas as well.
- The appointment of a Director of Safe Sport Education and Policy with broad, sweeping authority to investigate accusations and remove people.
- ALL accusations must go to an independent entity: the U.S. Center for Safe Sport. No more insiders/cronies. Real, external oversight and review. That scares BSA so much it had to get a bankruptcy court to order it.
- Local audits of USAG member gymnastics clubs. Again the Catholic church does as well. I'd LOVE to see BSA forced to see 10-15% of local councils randomly be subject audits each year.
- USAG will work with a Survivors committee. BSA is going to be forced to work with a committee that includes survivors. No more hand picked BSA insiders (and again, I'll note that it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to find out from BSA who is on that Youth Protection Committee, whereas the Catholic Bishops and USAG post on their respective websites)
Again: thank you TCC for making BSA take YP seriously.
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45 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:
Not only is that blatantly false, it is accusing many good people of violating the law.
I never said they were not reporting to law enforcement. Read what I wrote.
QuoteHow often does BSA report the number of YP violations? Answer: 0.
Sure they report to police. But do they provide data so parents and others can make informed decisions? So we can see if the much vaunted YP training is actually being enforced? Nope.
As I said: the Catholic Church got the message. Annually they report this data. BSA? No way. Hide, hide, hide.
BSA: "YP violations? What YP violations? Nope. No YP violations here."
Again, the Catholic dioceses do this annually at the national level. BSA mean while is only going to do it thanks to the TCC making them do so as part of a bankruptcy court's order.
That's openness I'll tell you. Yep.
Just look at this Catholic annual report.
- Lists the individuals responsible for enforcement of child protection (pages 8-10 and then 13). Does BSA list who is on its YP committee? Nope. Hide, hide, hide. https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ascouting.org+youth+protection+committee
- 10-15% of dioceses are audited annually (page 19). BSA? Nope. Hide, hide, hide. Don't collect that data, you don't have a YP problem!
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Reports on the following data points
- Total Allegations in the previous 5 years (page 27)
- Status of allegations as of reporting year, number (page 28)
- Status of allegations as of reporting year, percentage (page 29)
- Number of accused leaders and their positions (page 29)
- Status of accused leaders as of reporting year, such as removed, resigned, etc. (page 30)
- List of audited dioceses and on-site visits by an OUTSIDE INDEPENDENT auditor, as opposed to cronies and insiders (page 32)
- Survey of allegations and costs (pages 37-45)
- Type of allegation (page 38-40)
- Age of victim (page 40)
- Costs, including settlements, payments to victims other than settlement, attorneys fees, etc (page 43)
And as noted: this entire report was generated and created by an OUTSIDE auditor, not cronies and insiders.
I'll start to take BSA seriously about YP when it does even a FRACTION of this. And it will: ONLY due to the TCC's insistence and a COURT ORDER.
Yet one more reason to say: thank you TCC!
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2 hours ago, fred8033 said:
We have mandatory reporting. IT's THE LAW !!!!!
- How often does BSA report the number of YP violations? Answer: 0.
- How often does BSA report the number of adults removed from or disciplined within the BSA system for YP violations? Answer: 0.
- And when the TCC (and I'll give them credit here the Coalition supports) the requirement for annual reporting of this data? Tons of opposition.
And I'm not even asking to take the step the Catholic dioceses have taken to annually report that names some of the offenders. I am simply asking for BSA to report at the LC level number per year.
Again, the Catholic dioceses do this annually at the national level. See Appendix I.
QuoteBetween July 1, 2018 and June 30, 2019, 4,434 allegations were reported by 4,220 victims/survivors of child sexual abuse by clergy throughout 194 Catholic dioceses and eparchies...
Chart 1-2 below summarizes the status of the 4,434 allegations as of June 30, 2019...
The number of clerics accused of sexual abuse of a minor during the audit period totaled 2,982.
Etc
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14 minutes ago, David CO said:
I am not in favor of having such an undemocratic BSA.
BSA has never been democratic. There's never been a vote of all registered leaders or scouts on anything.
And the fact that you want to subject child sexual abuse rules to a vote says a lot.
But if we are going to have a vote, I vote AGAINST children being sexually abused.
What about you?
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8 minutes ago, David CO said:
Just like an activist Supreme Court, we will have an activist CPC.
Activist is simply short hard for "render a decision I don't like".
And when it comes to child protection, I'll rely on the experts (the Evaluating Entity) and victims before I listen to BSA cronies.
8 minutes ago, David CO said:No discussion. No vote. Just an edict from the committee, and that's it.
Yep. That's how rules work in the real world. You don't get to decide. BSA is not a democracy. Don't like BSA's child protection rules? Leave.
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Chapter 11 Announced - Part 6 - Plan 5.0/TCC Plan TBD
in Issues & Politics
Posted · Edited by CynicalScouter
Schedule and ballots was set last week.
ORDER (I) APPROVING THE DISCLOSURE STATEMENT
AND THE FORM AND MANNER OF NOTICE, (II) APPROVING
PLAN SOLICITATION AND VOTING PROCEDURES, (III) APPROVING
FORMS OF BALLOTS, (IV) APPROVING FORM, MANNER, AND SCOPE OF
CONFIRMATION NOTICES, (V) ESTABLISHING CERTAIN DEADLINES IN
CONNECTION WITH APPROVAL OF THE DISCLOSURE STATEMENT AND
CONFIRMATION OF THE PLAN, AND (VI) GRANTING RELATED RELIEF
https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/beb124f7-e931-4b0c-97cb-006a315622e8_6438.pdf
I honestly cannot remember what is on for tomorrow. Odds and ends related to discovery I think?