Cburkhardt

The thrust of my concern is that the tort industry will have a roadmap to suit the going-forward BSA organizations at the council level. They will know which ones have accessible properties, how much those properties are worth and what the YPT records of those councils were pre-bankruptcy. When one of these lawyers hears about disgruntled volunteers or employees on just about any civil rights or other issue, the suits will flow against the councils known to have assets. I am nothing other than a Scoutmaster these days, but if I were on a council executive board I would be encouraging an eff

The Continuing exposure of the properties to lawsuits is a huge issue as well. Bankruptcy will force us to close and sell some properties. Local councils will do their best to keep our best properties. After the bankruptcy is over the tort lawyers are not going to lose interest in BSA assets. Post-bankruptcy suits will continue. Every time someone has a complaint against the Bsa for just about anything, a suit will be filed in an attempt to liquidate our remaining assets. Smart councils will not wait for those suits to be filed, because it will be too late at that point.

Good point WIW. The councils would have to transfer properties with extensive trust conditions to prioritize Scouting uses. I think of the summer camp programs as being operated by council camping program committees and the land/facility management companies as focused on maintenance and off-season uses to build maintenance-specific endowments. Council executive boards don’t typically have the bandwidth to focus on generating revenues that way. One result is maintenance backlog. Another is allowing the camps to become financial burdens when they could generate revenues.

National Staff Reductions. Great questions. Under both possible outcomes I posted, the national staff reductions are near-total. If there were a liquidation, “national” could essentially be a program research, development, supply and licensing service unit owned and operated by the larger go-forward councils. That might mean 15-20 program development staffers and a similar amount of supply division staff (most of that would be contracted out). Under those outcomes there is no national field staff. The mega councils are on their own to do as they please and for practical reasons don’t rep

How would the national liquidation potential outcome affect rural units in small towns? The unit leaders and youth participants probably would not feel much difference, except their registration fees would plummet. They would have on-line access to all program materials and the licensor would sell recognition items directly to them. These items would also cost less, as the licensor would only seek to break-even on its program research and development efforts. There would be no volunteer or professional structure above the unit level in these geographies. The chartered organization con

How would ownership of properties be handled? Under any of these potential outcomes, it would seem wise to separate ownership and management of properties from the councils in order to protect the assets from future suits. Under the hypothetical, I might suggest that a separate property organization be formed to own Big City Scout Reservation and the training center. Between the investment bankers from the former Rich Folks council and the members of the former council camping committees of predecessor councils, there would be plenty of talent to get that done. It would be best to establis

Parkman: Great points, all. My second potential outcome was designed to show how a new BSA organization could fairly easily emerge even if there was a national liquidation (which I don’t predict will occur). The dynamic is that the resource-abundant geographies will be able to move forward. The surviving entities that would lead the movement in those areas would be the ones that have the best financial, property management and volunteer leadership resources. Smaller councils will only survive if they have some unique attribute that allows them to continue. The best will pal in with t

Here is a different potential outcome, perhaps more consistent with the views of some commenters: A March, 2021 announcement by the Bankruptcy Court that 26,000 claims filed had been determined to be credible caused the national BSA reorganization bankruptcy case to teeter on the edge of conversion to liquidation. After a series of hearings and decisions, the Court ordered that substantially all non-designated assets of councils would need to be applied to the Victims Trust Fund in order to raise a sufficient total to allow a national Chapter 11 to move forward. Or, the national orga

There are some similarities, but if you look at my "first version" result you will definitely see differences. Chicago/C7 is a microcosm of a lot of the challenges and provides all sorts of examples of things done well and poorly. I love the "cage match" fundraising idea!

One Solution: Two councils dissolve, two council merge and one council gets new responsibility. The Big City and Happy councils must have some positive program things happening, because maintaining reasonable membership amid the difficult overall circumstances is a leading indicator of success. They will turn out to be the key local organizations that survive. The Rich Folks council is kind of a mystery. Dropping membership could be an indicator of program difficulties there, but they seem like they can choose to attempt anything they want because of their endowment. Th

That said, the OA youth at the national level have a rule that when councils merge, a new combined lodge is always formed. That sometimes aggrieves folks who would like to be a member of their childhood lodge.

I suggest we leave aside the more specialized topics like OA, Wood Badge and things like that for now and try to concentrate on the overall situation for our pretend Area. I also suggest everyone concentrate for at least a week on posting their predictions and answers for the problem, rather than commenting on what is posted. It would be just great to see the variety and categories of solutions first. Then we can have fun. And yes, I will put out my grand plan eventually so you can all “have at me”.

You Solve it – A Likely Bankruptcy Scenario Ten years ago a city of 1 million had its own council, the “Big City Council”. Surrounding it were three smaller suburban councils. In a ring surrounding this metropolitan area were four rural councils. This combined territory happens to comprise an “Area”, which at the time was a national BSA organizational structure. Over the decade and prior to the bankruptcy filing, two of the suburban councils had financial and membership problems and combined into Big City Council. Their property was sold and the cash went into the camp endowment

My last posting on this thread. The stage of resolving fundamental conflicts within the BSA will soon be upon us. What is different is that an external decision-maker will determine the fate of our resources and opine what is "core" and "not core" to our written governance documents. There will be little discretion whether to keep or sell properties or end valued services in order to fund council purchases of bankruptcy discharges -- the decision makers' hands will be forced by the judge and trustees. Councils who can afford to will protect generations of individuals (like commenters on

I hear you. I noticed that when COVID caused a big downturn in our bankruptcy case prospects, some began enforcing a purely negative orthodoxy on this site. This reminds me of my years on camp staff in the old Northern Indiana Council when a Scoutmaster named Igor used to be condemning of everything and everyone associated with the camp, council, district or whatever. I'm sure he was beloved back home, but to this day I cringe when recalling the intensity and regularity of the negativity. I ran into a guy I served with on that staff who I had not seen in 44 years and he brought up hilariou

I'm looking forward to a couple of things right now. First, planning our Troop open house for new Scout families to have their child join our 38-Scout Troop. We had a couple of new Scouts join us over the summer and they, along with their parents, love our unit. A safe place to learn about how to grow into a confident citizen and have fun in the process. I'm also looking forward to our late September outing, when our four patrols will go on separate overnight outings at our local Scout Reservation after satisfying our physician-ordered testing and distancing process. The families that hav

Very interesting conversation. People are not born evil. Some adopt very advanced and evil tactics as they grow. Those who abused children rightfully deserve the punishment and perpetual shame meted-out by today’s society. Not-for-profit youth service agencies are not essentially evil. They are as effective or flawed as the individuals involved. Many in the BSA were surely well intended when the so-called “ineligible volunteer list” was devised, but the inconsistent success of that effort and the insufficiency of protection must have been apparent to some in positions of responsibi

Our PLC Verdict on the Summit: The Scouts loved summer camp there. We had our Zoom meeting of all incoming Troop and Patrol youth officers to finalize plans for the fall and review our summer. The Scouts loved their week at the Summit. You will be surprised to hear that not once were the cold showers, lengthy distances between program areas or mandatory-mask policy mentioned. I finally raised those issues and got the "what are you talking about?" look back from them. The only constructive suggestion they had was to make the food a bit better and fresher. That would be a good idea,

I have not been part of the Summit effort and do not know the plans, numbers or other particulars. I only shared what I observed about the place during our summer camp week as a Troop. It provided a solid summer camp experience for our Troop and our Scouts loved it. If it is within reasonable transportation distance for a one-week Troop summer camp experience, I recommend the program they offer. My attitude is that since the place is there, priced appropriately for a week of summer camp and includes the unusual additional experiences, Troops might as well use it. If the place survives the

The cost to attend summer camp is always a reasonable issue. I calculated the difference in attending our council's Goshen Scout Reservation versus summer camp at the Summit. For us, that meant driving 1.5 hours further and a $20 higher price. Accounting for the cost of the extra fuel across our scouts is about $4 each. So the marginal additional cost to out Troop per Scout is about $25 (an increase of about 7%). Because $25 means a lot to many people, the Troop picked up the total $500 difference. My view is that this is not a significant cost difference issue. The Summit is used for j

Smart Phones at Summit Summer Camp. One thing I failed to mention is that while it is not necessary for a Scout to have a smart phone at summer camp at the Summit, it is really needed on the part of at least one leader. Announcements regarding the schedule and other matters are made on-line and during COVID the campwide events were replaced by custom-made videos the Scouts could watch. The base has an extensive wifi network donated by AT&T for use during the jamborees. Our Troop policy is that the Scouts can have a phone at camp, but are only allowed to use it in connection with progra

Undoubtedly NCAP standards increase construction costs. I don't know too much about the program, but I presume the standards are meant to require longer-term capital improvements that will need less repair, be safer and last longer. What I was thinking of are operating costs like salaries, benefits, environmental requirements, maintenance and insurance The increase in all of this is almost freakish.

I agree entirely. Fortunately, it appears the "fix" is relatively easy. In the adult shower house I used, they essentially used the space of one of the seven shower stalls to install a hot water heater. They did not really have to alter the physical construction. I probably should have mentioned that these shower houses/toilets are indestructible because of the bears. Thick, well-poured concrete walls combine with heavy industrial lighting, fixtures and roofs. Shelves are made of 1/4" thick angle irons bolted to the wall. Wooden uprights are 10 x 10 hardwood that attach to steel fastene

Our national bases and the best of our larger council camps can be opened to non-scouting users during the off-seasons under proper tax circumstances. The cash flows can subsidize Scouts attending summer camp and maintain and boost endowments. The costs of operating and maintaining camps has skyrocketed during recent decades. We need the cash flow to preserve these places for future youth.

Again, a great observation. The New River Gorge National River property is directly adjacent to the Summit, and we have unlimited access to it. It effectively expands the 14,000-acre Summit into an additional 70,000 pristine acres. The Park Service loves us and the OA has really helped develop that trail system in the park. Another factor that is going to make that happen is the staff culture that has rapidly built-up at the Summit. It is not a duplicate of the Philmont Rangers -- but is a distinctly different and cohesive group of people that will be able to pull off the kind of experie