gblotter

7 hours ago, David CO said:

Since the LDS are forming a new program, I would imagine that they will be wanting to keep all their camping equipment.

I'm not supportive of our troop purchasing new camping equipment because nobody feels ownership for taking care of it and it usually gets thrashed. For our campouts, the boys bring their own camping gear from home and that works out well.

Our troop closet holds a hodge-podge of old camping gear that never gets used. Generally, it is stuff that families discarded. I will likely do a mass clean-out and throw most of it away.

28 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

So I come from the thread on how professionals are no good to the thread about how Scouters who take Wood Badge are no good.

Oh, dear - we certainly are a cranky bunch today.

45 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

Refusing to give to FoS or sell popcorn because you're mad at National for changing the color of the shoulder loop from red to green only hurts yourself. (I use that example because that actually happened). 

Obviously, some changes are trivial (shoulder loop colors) and some are not (restructuring the program for girls). Responses should be proportional.

When our opinions as volunteers are ignored and disregarded, it seems we have only two ways to object: with our feet and with our dollars. How else to send a message they will pay attention to?

23 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

I try to be humble about our jobs because this truly is a volunteer driven organization

@carebear3895  As a professional Scouter, you have a unique perspective. I'm curious to know your thoughts ...

When BSA National makes membership decisions and program changes that are objectionable to many of us in the volunteer force (indeed, with complete disregard and defiance to our opinions), what do you think is the correct response we should have?

4 minutes ago, Saltface said:

I know a ten year-old that started attending the EYO patrol after getting his Arrow of Light.

After earning his Arrow of Light, my son immediately registered as Boy Scout to start working on merit badges and rank advancement while waiting for his 11th birthday. Our Cub program shuts down at the end of the school year, and it made no sense to idle away an entire summer with no Scouting whatsoever. However, out of respect for our EYO leader, my son did not start attending patrol meetings until his 11th birthday. That seemed like an acceptable compromise for everyone.

4 minutes ago, Saltface said:

It gave the Primary presidency fits, but they didn't stop him.

I make it a point to never cross the Primary President! - lol

16 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I have met some very good Scouters who are Wood Badge trained, and many I feel would be just as good had they not gone through that program.  I have also met some people that makes me question what the heck they actually teach, as these folks are about as in-touch with the aims and methods of Scouting as a tree. 

I do not question the quality of Scouters in Wood Badge. I just know that I don't want to hang out with them - lol. I'd rather spend my Scouting time with the boys.

Would I be better Scoutmaster with Wood Badge? Probably.

Would I trade a weekend of camping with the boys for a weekend at Wood Badge? Definitely not.

2 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

How can a few people chatting online "establish" what was ultimately behind the BSA's decision? Alas, we can hypothesize all we want, but we don't really know what went behind the move.

You are, of course, correct. None except the BSA and LDS leaders can ultimately say what was their reasoning and motivation.

Just now, RememberSchiff said:

If not, imagine the economic impact to the BSA with all us thrifty scouts buying  pre-owned LDS uniforms.

I expect booming sales in framed display cases to hold all those LDS Scout uniforms and patches. Buy stock now!

13 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I kind of surprised the guy asking. He was looking at me as if it was somehow odd that I wouldn't want to do Wood Badge.

Same for me. How could someone be a dedicated Scoutmaster for 10+ years and not want to do Wood Badge? - lol

7 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Is there a published outline of what the young men's program for LDS is supposed to look like?

Nothing published yet.

When LDS dropped Varsity and Venturing for older boys, it was replaced with a flexible church youth program that allows boys to pick from a wide variety of activities (sort of cafeteria style). Categories include spiritual, social, physical, and intellectual. What's missing are the badges and rank advancements (which some here decry as an impure motivation, anyway). If the new church youth program to replace BSA looks anything like that, I think we will be just fine.

11 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I mean if it's gonna award achievement and character in some way like the BSA does, why worry about Eagle?

Eagle Scout will always hold a cachet separate from other youth programs.

8 minutes ago, MattR said:

Why not just run your own troop? Like you already are doing?

That idea was actually proposed by some of our Scouts - just continue the troop but with a different chartering organization. While that sounds fine, I doubt we could find enough adult support without the push of the church behind it.

For my own personal situation as Scoutmaster, I will exit BSA on 12/31/19 over disillusionment with the girl decision. The needs of boys now bow before the god of inclusiveness, and that feels like a betrayal. It's time for me to make way for a new kind of Scout and a new kind of Scouter and a new kind of Scouting.

2 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

I heard many issues that happened at Jambo that made my blood boil.    Swearing was the least of those, but it doesn't make it meaningless.

When LDS parents send their son off to an event like National Jamboree, and then the boy returns home with stories of pervasive swearing (and other unScoutlike behaviors like patch stealing), it creates an impression that this is how Scouting works in a non-LDS setting. You can then understand a predictable level of concern over joining a non-LDS troop. In reality, the concern may unwarranted, but it is still understandable.

To be completely honest, my son expressed interest in attending World Jamboree next summer, but we detoured that pursuit because of these kinds of issues encountered at National Jamboree.

2 minutes ago, gblotter said:

At National Jamboree, my son and his LDS buddy - their ears burned from the constant barrage of swearing from so many boys. They felt powerless in the situation because the adult leaders heard it but paid no attention - the swearing problem was pervasive. As you might imagine, that kind of stuff is completely foreign in an LDS troop, so it felt very strange to them to see it ignored by adult Scouting leaders.

Perhaps Jamboree was a unique situation because the boys were not being supervised by their regular Scoutmaster and other familiar adult leaders. The Jamboree contingent adult leaders were mostly strangers to the boys, so maybe the adults felt awkward stepping in and the boys felt bolder in defiance.

1 minute ago, mashmaster said:

If I heard of any of that, I would address it privately to the scout.  We haven't had to deal pornography, but those in my issues are something that a SM or ASM would address with the boy.  I would not call it out in front of the whole troop.   For Pornography, it would be the boy, then the parents.

Glad to hear it. At National Jamboree, my son and his LDS buddy - their ears burned from the constant barrage of swearing from so many boys. They felt powerless in the situation because the adult leaders heard it but paid no attention - the swearing problem was pervasive. As you might imagine, that kind of stuff is completely foreign in an LDS troop, so it felt very strange to them to see it ignored by adult Scouting leaders.

10 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

We have some scouts that are LDS in our troop and we respect their religious practices like we would others.

Just curious - in your troop, would adult leaders proactively address incidents of pornography and swearing, or only if a Scout is courageous enough to step forward and voice a complaint (or not even then)?

3 hours ago, Saltface said:

Why won't he be able to finish? Technically, can't you wait until June 6th to start? (Which would be a terrible idea).

One example from last night's committee meeting: A Webelos Scout who has already finished his Arrow of Light does not turn 11 until October. He has no path to Eagle before 12/31/19.

A few other boys have very tight timelines. One missed deadline will derail their Eagle efforts unless they are willing to join a non-LDS troop in 2020.

Personally, I hate the pressure of such deadlines (even when it is a looming 18th birthday) because of compromised standards and corrupted motivations. However, as Scoutmaster I am here to support these Scouts and their families to achieve whatever goals they have in Scouting. 

1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

Is there any reason why the boy couldn't be enrolled in a different troop to finish if he really wants Eagle, or is the the parent that really wants Eagle?  Nothing says they are prohibited from joining a non-LDS based troop.

The option of enrolling in a non-LDS troop exists for all our Scouts, and that idea was discussed in great detail during our committee meeting. A few boys may pursue that option if they miss the 12/31/19 deadline.

When contemplating a non-LDS troop, there is some doubt/concern over respect for our beliefs (avoiding Sunday camping, etc). When my son attended National Jamboree last summer with mostly non-LDS Scouts, the adult Jamboree leaders for our council contingent were reluctant to address issues of swearing and pornography. Sure - Scouting is boy-led and all, but that kind of "hands off" attitude doesn't sit well with LDS parents (or their sons, for that matter). In LDS Scouting, the chartering organization relationship with the unit is anything but "hands off". There is a level of oversight, direction, and support that is perhaps hard to duplicate elsewhere.

9 hours ago, ParkMan said:

But I thought this forum had established that the BSA decision to go co-ed was because the LDS church had already the BSA leadership it was leaving.

Let's say though that they hadn't.  The BSA created all kinds of special stuff in the program for the LDS church.  I would imagine that the execs would have gladly said that LDS units were exempt from the co-ed program.

LDS Scouting died in July 2015 when BSA announced its decision to admit gay adult leaders. The funeral was simply delayed due to the time required to formulate a replacement LDS youth program. After BSA's July 2015 vote, the strongly worded LDS response was shockingly candid in airing dirty laundry.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is deeply troubled by today’s vote by the Boy Scouts of America National Executive Board. In spite of a request to delay the vote, it was scheduled at a time in July when members of the Church’s governing councils are out of their offices and do not meet. When the leadership of the Church resumes its regular schedule of meetings in August, the century-long association with Scouting will need to be examined. The Church has always welcomed all boys to its Scouting units regardless of sexual orientation. However, the admission of openly gay leaders is inconsistent with the doctrines of the Church and what have traditionally been the values of the Boy Scouts of America."

Co-ed Scouting was a clumsy decision made out of financial desperation upon being notified internally of the LDS exit date. That explains the manipulative surveys to elicit coerced support for an unpopular decision, followed by a rushed announcement of a half-baked idea with few program details available.

@The Latin Scot is absolutely correct in the way he articulates LDS views about gender and complementary roles, but BSA's girl decision did not trigger the LDS exit. The BSA girl decision was quite irrelevant by that point (i.e. do whatever you think is best to secure the future of your movement, because LDS is leaving regardless).

Last night, we had our first Troop Committee meeting since the announcement of LDS exit. As you might imagine, there was full attendance and the meeting ran long with discussion and speculation.

The advancement plan for each of our 30 boys was discussed in detail. With a hard deadline of 12/31/19, the trail to Eagle now suddenly feels a lot more serious (even ominous) to our Scouting families. For some of these boys, just one misstep or missed date will derail their train. One parent was very sad because their son has no chance to finish Eagle before the deadline.

We discussed the difficult financial position of BSA National and its recent desperate moves to admit girls. Our troop has a lucrative annual troop fundraiser that we will run one more time to fund our Scouting activities to the end of 2019. Any leftover money (unlikely) will be donated to FOS on 12/31/19.

One Assistant Scoutmaster spoke postively about the prospect of him joining a non-LDS troop. One boy has already decided he will join the non-LDS troop of his OA buddies in order to continue his OA lodge membership. One parent hoped the council/district would sponsor some sort of outreach expo for LDS Scouting families to learn more about the surrounding non-LDS troops. However, most families acknowledged that their Scouting journeys will end on 12/31/19.

The next 18 months will be an extremely busy time, and we plan to take our troop out with a bang - not a whimper. Several big blow-out Scouting adventures are being contemplated for summer 2019.

42 minutes ago, FireStone said:

The BSA aligns more closely with them now, except for the religious part.

God will be gone from BSA soon enough, but that won't halt BSA's decline anymore than gays/trans/girls did.

42 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Those who left for Trail Life, LDS, Troops of St. George, they won't come back unless the BSA kicks out girls and gay members. That won't happen.

With the departure of conservatives/traditionalists, BSA will become the Scouting choice of liberal/progressive families (who have fewer children). That doesn't represent a broad enough membership pool to sustain the movement. Given the huge debt load for The Summit, I honestly don't see a future for BSA. I expect we'll see some sort of bankruptcy reorganization within the next decade, with possible sale of assets.

3 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

I don't mind having two parallel Scout organizations for 11-17 year olds, but coed Troops probably isn't a good idea.

Parallel Scout organizations are not what is being implemented. Local troops can remain single-gender, but everything else in BSA (every national, council, district event) is moving to co-ed. Where is the parallel organization?

Re-orient Scouting toward building manly self-confidence (ala Jordan Peterson) to attract more boys and shed BSA's wimpy image. Young men require a physical challenge to feel accomplishment - a rite of passage.

Revamp the Eagle-required merit badge list: Less bookwork - more adventure. Drop Env Science, Communication. One citizenship MB should be sufficient. Instead of Swimming OR Hiking OR Cycling, how about Swimming AND Hiking AND Cycling. Make Wilderness Survival MB required.

In addition to an Eagle Scout Service Project, add an Eagle Scout Outdoor Adventure Project to the requirements. Let natural competition kick in to see which Scout can craft the greatest outdoor adventure on his path to Eagle.

BTW: Introducing girls into the program is the antithesis of everything mentioned above.

33 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Then I suppose he was very against Venturing as well?

Perhaps it is better to actually read MIke Rowe's response.

He is not against girls in Scouting. Rather, he doesn't think inclusiveness is going to fix what is wrong with Scouting.

"So I’m not opposed to building a program within Scouting for girls. But I am very worried about the future of Scouting in general."