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Posts posted by gblotter

  1. 6 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

    Im getting more than a little tired of hearing the 'it's all lies" refrain.

    And I'm getting more than a little tired of BSA National claiming popular support for a divisive decision when they crafted a manipulated survey and distributed it selectively and won't reveal the results.


    8 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

    it has been loud and growing in the other 80% of Scouting

    Even in the non-LDS Scouting community, support is spotty at best. The backing of a loud minority does give one claim to popular support.

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  2. 13 minutes ago, FireStone said:

    I'm honestly surprised that there isn't more support for separate books from the single-gender-scouting crowd. This supports the idea of separate troops entirely, doesn't it? A single merged book looks more like co-ed scouting.

    I am ready to criticize BSA National about many things, and I detest the decision about girls in Scouting. But I will defend separate handbooks. I support as much separation as possible.

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  3. The September-October issue of Scouting Magazine makes it clear that BSA is betting the farm on girls.

    Cover photo: Family Scouting

    Letter from CSE: Justifying girls in Scouting with claims that it was all in response to popular demand (his lies just never stop)

    Commissioner's Corner: How to welcome girls into Scouting

    Recruiting Article: How to get more girls in Scouting with Scout Me In

    Order of the Arrow Article: Welcoming girls into OA staring February 2019

    Roundtable Article: Welcoming girls into a pack

    Scouting FAQ: Uniform Q&A with feature photo of a girl Cub Scout

    Cub Scout Corner: How to balance busy lives with a big feature photo of a girl

    Ethics Article: Cell phone story focused on a teen girl

    Main Article #1: Welcome to the Family - 8 page spread focused on girls

    Main Article #2: A New Era of Scouting - 4 page spread about girls in Cubs

    New Leader Guide: Feature photo of a female leader

    Now tell me why boys should not feel they have lost their Scouting program? I predict BSA will lose more boys than girls gained for a net loss of overall membership. Faced with this reality, they'll change to program to make it even more girl-friendly. Boys are the failing segment of our society right now, and nobody cares - nobody.

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  4. 6 minutes ago, MattR said:

    I don't understand why participation can't be a requirement. ... Sounds to me like they just want that last patch.

    The Eagle Scout participation requirement is not being ignored. Eagle has been a long-term goal for them. To meet Eagle requirement #1, they would insist that they had six good active months shortly after becoming Life but not so much recently.

  5. 29 minutes ago, allangr1024 said:

    In our troop scouts meet with a specific person (SM), at a specific time (last monday of the month) and at a specific place (church meeting hall).

    Interesting point. I'm reminded that the Scoutmaster conference can be held at any time while working toward the new rank, and it doesn't need to be the last requirement satisfied before a board of review is held. Would your troop would make an exception to provide alternate arrangements for a Scoutmaster conference if a Scout found himself up against a deadline (six months before turning 18, for instance)?

  6. Adding requirements like that is obviously wrong, but I can sympathize with what this troop might be trying to do (encouraging activity by older Scouts). Right objective, wrong implementation.

    We have a troop of 30 boys (about half are age 11-13 and half are age 14-17). All the older Scouts are grouped into one large patrol. The lives of these older teens get so busy, and we rarely see them on a troop campout or other Scouting activities. I remind those still working toward Eagle that real activity in the troop is requirement #1, and I challenge them to attend at least one campout a year (not setting a high bar). But that counsel never seems to translate to actual campout attendance. I have also urged their Patrol Leader to organize their own separate patrol campouts, to no avail.

    This is a point of frustration (for more than just our troop).


  7. 2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

    I have been wondering if the BSA will grant free use of program material, etc. to the new youth group?

    No need. The church is rather good at program development.

    I expect to see greater emphasis on spiritual development. Less emphasis (elimination) of badges and awards. I’ll be very surprised if a heavy outdoor component (including frequent camping) is not included.

    Or I may be completely wrong.

    We all have plenty of time to speculate about the unknown, as details of the replacement youth program likely won’t be unveiled until late 2019.

  8. My father-in-law is a huge long-time Scouter (past council president even). Because our LDS troop is functioning so well, he has talked of continuing it intact under a different CO (he was even willing to do the legwork to find the new CO and an alternate meeting location). I doubt he will get traction - especially for the necessary adult leadership to staff an independent troop. I told him to count me out - I won’t continue as Scoutmaster under that scenario. Absent BSA’s girl decision, I likely would have supported the idea.

    Scouting has been a truly fantastic ride, but it will be time for me to move on when the church exits 12/31/19. Because of BSA’s girl decision, the program is lost in my eyes.

  9. 2 minutes ago, bearess said:

    I’d say that the fact that such significant changes to BSA had to be made for LDS units means the program was never a great fit.

    For many decades, the Scouting program was a wonderful fit for LDS boys. It is BSA  - not the church that has changed in its values and focus. Thus, the program is not the great fit now that it was for so very long. It makes many of us LDS Scouters and Scouting families very sad.

    Watch this inspiring video produced by the church just a few years ago to commemorate the 100 year partnership between LDS and BSA. Then tell me that Scouting was never a great fit.


  10. 27 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

    Under those circumstances, will there be a Church defined discouragement for girls to join the program?

    Certainly no church prohibition for girls in BSA. The church does not prohibit participation in GSUSA, either. Sunday collisions with scheduling of Scouting events in a non-LDS troop may surface as an issue, however. Our son avoids many sports teams for the same reason. But that is a separate issue that affects both girls and boys.


    27 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

    what is it about the Scouts BSA model as its supposed to be run: a single gender, outdoor based, character and citizenship development program, that would make it inappropriate for young women to participate in?

    Boys are different than girls - period. Boys learn differently and develop differently than girls - period. If this is not obvious, then let's just end the discussion here.

    My son faces this reality on a daily basis at school where his behavior and performance is constantly held up to the girl standard. In Scouting, he was free to be a boy among boys - but no more starting February 2019. BSA is not proposing a single-gender program. Except for an individual unlinked troop, every BSA program at the district, council, and national level will be co-ed. Tell me where is the single-gender program? Imagine next summer at BSA camps. You have 11-13 year old boys and 11-13 year old girls sitting in the same merit badge classes. Which group do you think will be focused and attentive, and which group do you think will be rowdy and distracted? As in school, the boys will come under that same spotlight and questioned about why they can't behave like all those wonderful girls. Unlike school, the boys have an easy option to quit a Scouting program that it is no longer tailored to their needs. How is this not obvious to everyone? I will exit Scouting with the LDS church, so my opinions are not important for BSA's future - not worth the energy to argue these points.


  11. In our council, Sunday collisions with scheduled Scouting events is very common. I don't view it as being hostile to religious observance in any way - I just think the organizers are unaware because the faithful don't speak up (go along to get along).

    I have chosen to speak up whenever I am presented with a Sunday collision in scheduling. Each time I have been graciously offered an accommodation by the organizer that works for all.

    BTW: I agree that a Scouts Own religious observance is insufficient for my personal belief system, so that is not the kind of accommodation I'm talking about here. Usually, I am granted permission for an early departure from the Scouting event on late Saturday night - just fine with me.

  12. 48 minutes ago, bearess said:

    LDS troops also limit camping for young scouts, rarely have elected PORs for scouts, and are often known as Eagle mills.  There are many differences.

    Yep - no argument. Some, but certainly not all. My experience is that program quality varies widely between LDS Scouting units. I'd like to think that our troop of 30 Scouts can hold its head high when comparisons are made. Just next door is another LDS troop that is barely functioning and struggling to even maintain critical mass. Generalizations are hard to make.


    48 minutes ago, bearess said:

    I think their willingness to bend/change the rules for one group has negatively impacted the program, making it exclusive and divisive.

    You have a strange perspective if you believe that LDS is the only opposition to BSA National on these divisive issues.


    48 minutes ago, bearess said:

    I think BSA will be better for this change.

    In terms of program purity and consistency, I agree. The accommodations for LDS Scouting units will vanish, of course. In terms of the membership drain and financial loss, this is a huge blow to BSA - no question.


    48 minutes ago, bearess said:

    For the LDS Church, I think it’s a loss.

    The replacement youth program from the LDS church has not even been announced, so such speculation is unfounded. Given that some LDS Scouting units have not been functioning well (example above), the bar is not that high for a replacement program to be honest.

  13. 3 hours ago, mashmaster said:

    I will be interested to see how many join other troops in the area.

    Based only on our troop of 30 boys, the crossover into non-LDS troops will be less than 10 percent. There may be some initial interest by Scouts seeking to finish off Eagle, but even that level of participation will wane within a year or two. Scouting among LDS families will be an esoteric interest like oboe lessons or fencing.

    I can't speak for Cub Scouts - there may be more interest in Cubs for LDS families, but I doubt that too. Church activity programs keep LDS families quite busy - too many balls to juggle at times.

    Very few LDS girls in our area participate in GSUSA, so I can't imagine why girls in BSA would be any different.


    3 hours ago, mashmaster said:

    In our area, the LDS troops operate much differently than the non-LDS troops.

    Correct (and I'm talking about more than just the Patrol Method). The LDS integration of spiritual components into Scouting activities is intentional and enriching and unique. For example, scripture readings and teachings from church leaders are routinely included in evening campfire programs. Prayers are a common practice at every LDS Scouting function (not just saying grace at mealtimes). My experience is that non-LDS Scouters bristle in awkwardness at any mention of moral cleanliness and reverence and spirituality and even Duty to God (the general implication of their raised eyebrows is "how dare you raise such a personal topic"), while those things are central to the LDS Scouting experience. Take away those elements, and Scouting becomes just a camping club to many folks. I doubt LDS families would find support in non-LDS troops to avoid camping on Sundays. My son came back from National Jamboree last summer appalled that adult Jamboree leaders made no attempt to curb the non-stop swearing by Scouts - foul language was everywhere. I wish my comments didn't sound so self-righteous (apologies), but these are true and frank accounts. So yes - LDS troops do operate differently, and that's one reason why there will be relatively little crossover.

  14. 2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

    I find it interesting that he speaks about a desire to have his grandsons become Eagle Scouts, but seems to preclude the possibility of his granddaughters following that trail.

    Simple. He realizes that girls in BSA is a radioactive topic and he is trying to avoid stirring controversy as he encourages LDS families to continue on with Scouting. Dahlquist doesn't want to remind people of more reasons to dislike BSA and their recent decisions (even while he himself helped craft those decisions).

    Nobody should assume that having daughters or granddaughters makes one a supporter of girls in BSA. Nobody should assume that being female makes one a supporter of girls in BSA. I dearly love my wife and three daughters, and we all disagree with this decision to include girls. Can we leave the identity politics behind, please?

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  15. 19 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

    Congratulations.  You win.  You've been trying to drive me out of these forums with your personal attacks on me for years.  Your bullying finally worked.  This will be my final post.


    The quote below is from @CalicoPenn posted on March 9, 2018 telling me to quit Scouting.

    If you're one of these conditional scouters, which I define as "I'm happy to volunteer as long as nothing ever changes and the BSA does things the way I want them to do them", then do us a favor - stop talking about quitting - just quit.  Do it now - don't wait until 2019.

  16. 51 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    It may take several years to really see the impact of all recent changes (YPT, G2SS, girls, etc).


    Admittedly, individual viewpoints shape our overall vision of future trends. I personally see a large number of Scouts who plan to complete their march to Eagle and then quit BSA altogether. Many folks are in denial about the impacts of co-ed Scouting on existing boy membership. Boys are not stupid and they will easily discern that the program focus has shifted away from them and their needs. BSA can't bully and shame people into staying with labels like "unScoutlike" and "conditional Scouter". Most who leave will walk away in silence rather than loud protest. The "get done and get out" mentality will accelerate next summer when boys are faced with the reality of co-ed BSA summer camps. But you are absolutely correct - only time will tell.

    However, we can rely on BSA National leadership to deflect blame and responsibility about the true reasons for any membership losses.

  17. 12 hours ago, ParkMan said:

    Isn't that part of being a good leader?

    No doubt there are plenty of agitators and activists who would agree. However, open defiance and boastful disobedience is definitely not how I define good leadership in Scouting.

    Some Scouters on this forum are quite particular about following every guideline and regulation issued by BSA. This scrutiny and hair-splitting can sometimes reach levels of absurdity (e.g. to wear a neckerchief over the collar or under the collar). Then I read threads like this where other Scouters brag about breaking fundamental rules. Such a fascinating discussion.


    12 hours ago, ParkMan said:

    Finally - why do you really care if someone disobey's national.

    In truth, it doesn't matter to me. I am an LDS Scouter, and our troop of 30 Scouts will be dissolved at the end of 2019. I'll be continuing along straight ahead as BSA takes a left turn. I'm not surprised that BSA's recent changes are still not enough to satisfy the detractors and dissenters. I don't expect they will ever be satisfied. I have accepted that this is no longer the Scouting program that captured my heart and imagination as a youth. Do what you want with it. The bumblers and liars at BSA National have made quite a mess of things in my view. I'm the last person who will be running to their defense at this point, so defy, disobey, and dissent all you like.

  18. From a different forum thread, a Scout has been denied Eagle by BSA National because he missed the age deadline by two months. There has been community outcry and petitions over this.

    See https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/greenburgh/2018/08/15/boy-scouts-no-eagle-rank-greenburghs-hari-channagiri/996348002/

    So if the CO,  CC, and SM have a thoughtful organized dissent with BSA National over this issue, I guess it's ok for them to just go purchase some Eagle badges on eBay and award them to the boy anyway, right? We are justified in disobeying BSA National (over any issue I suppose), so long as we are thoughtful and organized in our defiance, right?

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  19. At least the Scout is handling this with honor and maturity.

    "I knew from the beginning that I might not get to be an Eagle Scout because of the timing," the 18-year-old said Wednesday, after the Boy Scouts of America's (BSA) National Council reaffirmed its decision not to promote Channagiri. "I wanted to build a bridge, and I decided to do it anyway. That was my choice. I did it for me, not just because it might help me become an Eagle."

    Bravo to his attitude.

    See https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/greenburgh/2018/08/15/boy-scouts-no-eagle-rank-greenburghs-hari-channagiri/996348002/

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