cocomax

It's not a lie. It's wishful thinking maybe, creative marketing speak absolutely, but it's not quite a lie to omit the real reason for the new policy. 

   What do you think the real reason might be?

Is it a lie when BSA is asked  "Is this change a result of the BSA’s declining membership numbers?"

And the BSA answers: 

"No. The BSA has experienced renewed interest in Scouting, and we believe that is largely in response to program innovation and a more thorough understanding of what families want and need when it comes to extracurricular activities. In fact, recent surveys of parents not involved with Scouting showed high interest in getting their daughters signed up for programs like Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, with 90 percent expressing interest in a program like Cub Scouts and 87 percent expressing interest in a program like Boy Scouts."

We had a Mom (prob about 40+)  join our AT Crew this summer and did 50+ miles over 4-1/2 days. Included 3,000' ascent in one morning. She said it was hard but did it. I have seen many, many Scouters who seem to struggle from walking to the parking area to Dining Hall. 

Great to hear about the 50 miler mom, I hope the girls will be able to find lots of moms like that when the time comes. 

I know of one boy scout troop where all the adult male leaders are easily over 300 pounds each. . . and that troop does not ever hike.  

I'm not going to quibble about how big a disaster it would be, especially since this is all predictions anyway.  But I think it's a bad idea.  Five miles for boys, five miles for girls.

I am sure Girls can do 5 mile hikes, my 8 year old daughter can do 10 mile hikes with a back pack. I know a 71 year old scout master that has no problem doing 5 mile hikes with heavy pack.  So  11 to 17 year old girls interested in scouting should have no problem. 

Sadly, I do not know of any 30 to 50 year women involved in scouting that could do a 5 mile hike.  I was out with some Cub scouts doing a 3 mile day hike last month and I had slim young women in their 20's that had to quit after 0.6 miles, they were just done. I was shocked.   I am not sure where the girls are going to find adult women leaders that will be able to keep up with them on 5 mile hikes.

It is very likely a Boy Lead troop will do things different than a Girl Lead troop, just because Boys and Girls like different things.  If the Boys and Girls both get to lead their troops and have the same scout requirements for rank then the Girls have equal opportunities.

The Boy Scout rank requires are not that hard, they just take time and lots of paper work. I see nothing in the requirements that a Girl could not do. 

I am a very lucky scouter, the adult leadership of my troop is 100% on point with aim & methods and running a boy lead program. We have a great group of boys as well, all are good friends and they are cooking up some interesting new adventures we have never done before, it will be fun.

I get upset when I see other troops that have become train wreaks well on their way to folding completely, due to the iron fist rule by one adult scouter who is completely off the map,  in one case the adult scouter causing the problem not even the SM or ASM.  

I get upset when for the 3rd year in a row the district called off the camporee due to "weather" 3 hours after it was suppose to start (No rain in the forecast, high of 81 low of 47).  We went camping on our own instead. 

I guess our troop will just have to continue setting the example and hope other troops notice how much fun our boys are having. At least we will get to see other troops at summer camp.  

Thanks HelpfulTracks,  your words give me hope.

Can I borrow your crystal ball?  I'd like to get the winning lottery numbers for next weeks Megamillions and Powerball.

You don't need my crystal ball, I will just lend you my copies of scouter magazine, if you want to see what national has in mind for the future of the "Group Formerly Know As Boy Scouts of America" (GFKABSA)

There are about 1,800,000 Girl Scouts, they are happy with the program, it is designed by women for girls and ran mostly by women I was part of a Girl Scout camp out and it was a much better experience  then the last Boy Scout camporee that I went to. The Girls Scouts ran an amazing camp fire program, while the Boy Scouts had to sit through the most boring and poorly done mess of a camp fire I have ever seen in my life and the camporee was mostly a bunch of flip chart classes with the aim of signing scouts off on different merit badge requirements so that the Boys can get that Eagle out by age 14 before they become interested in girls and cars. . . . . not much fun at all, most boys were just spacing out on their smart phones trying to tune out the screams of all the cub scout den moms in the back ground. . .   I was a Boy Scout in the 1970's and I can see why Boy Scouts is loosing numbers. . . Boy Scouts has become pretty boring.  

The only thing that keeps Girl Scouts from doing the very same fun things that the Boy Scouts are suppose to be doing is their leaders, too many of the women that run Girl Scout Troops, don't do long hikes, don't do snow some do not even like camping so the girls end up with a tame program.

I am seeing an increasing number of Boy Scout leaders are just like the Girl Scout Leaders, who do not want to go do the more interesting things that the Boy want to do. I have seen Boy Scout Troops do nothing but car camp with the adults doing all the cooking, everyone bored out of their minds playing with their smart phones, adults included.  Not a fun time at all.

I am sure bringing girls in will make the Boy Scout program more family friendly, bring more car camping, bring more smart phone apps, more safety, much less adventure and it will not be the fault of the girls at all, but with the new leaders that will be coming in with them in massive numbers. . . 

The problem that Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are having is NOT caused by the kids, it is caused by bad adult leaders.  Yes, I have meet some great adult leaders, but there are too many bad adult leaders out there.  I have see too many good leaders driven out of the program by the bad ones gunning for them, it is heart breaking to so the good ones walk away, and end up stuck with horrible leader in a high position that no adult wants to follow, because they know they will regret it. 

Instead of making arguments about what is best come back to the real world and plan out what would be the best course of action to use the BSA brand to increase money flow to get the salary of the BSA CEO at national back up to $1,600,000 a year.

You have to think more like a well paid businessman that wants to keep the board happy so he can keep his job, maybe get a raise, after all that is who is making the decisions, not the volunteers.  

The Boy Scouts of America brand name is one of the best known brand names in the world so keep the name.

Increase membership fees from $24 to $33, that will bring in at least $18,000,000 more each year.  Now don't raise it too high we do not want too many scouters and scouts to quit over too high fees.

Bring in the girls, marketing research shows that only 10% of boys have any interest in Boy Scouts, but 90% of girls are interested joining cubs and 87% want to join boy scouts. That is almost a 900% growth rate!

BSA Quote:  "A recent surveys of parents not involved with Scouting showed high interest in getting their daughters signed up for programs like Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, with 90 percent expressing interest in a program like Cub Scouts and 87 percent expressing interest in a program like Boy Scouts.  Education experts also evaluated the curriculum and content and confirmed relevancy of the program for young women."

Boys? Best for the boys?

I do not think boys are the main focus of BSA anymore. Girls and single moms are more important to the BSA now.   The boys and scouters need to just accept that and be cheerful as they help the girls, single moms, and  families. 

I am convinced now the plan all along has been co-ed.  Which is why national does not have a name for the girls program.

I expect that sometime before 2019 national will announce that they have decided to go full co-ed.

I hope I was clear that I was not actually suggesting it, and I have no expectation that it will even be considered, I am just using it as a placeholder, tongue-in-cheek-like.  (Though I do realize that what I find humorous, many other people might not.)

 

But when you suggest that the WAGGGS and Girl Scouts (GSUSA?) have ownership of that name - in the United States - you have piqued my lawyerly interest. Do you have a source for that?

Here is a list:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Association_of_Girl_Guides_and_Girl_Scouts_members

GSUSA is a member of WAGGGS

Calling the Girl Boy Scouts           Girl Guides would be all sorts of problems with the GSUSA.

Personally, I think the Boy Scouts should be extra brave and call the new program   GIRL SCOUTS OF AMERICA  ( GSA )   That would be a BOLD move.

We cant use the term "Girl Guides", the name "Girl Guides" belongs to the Girl Scouts and the WAGGGS.

Currently, can one person be the scout master of two troops? Does BSA allow that?

Can one person be the scout master and be a pack master at the same time?

Look here:

http://scoutingwire.org/commitment-values-make-scouting-accessible-families/?utm_source=Volunteers&utm_campaign=94ffa056dc-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_10_25&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9777d746fe-94ffa056dc-204165641

People in the comments are pushing hard to make Boy Scouts Co-Ed. . . BSA is going to take a lot of heat over this.

Maybe national will never have to think up a name for the girl program, maybe they will just decided to go co-ed over the next year due to overwhelming public pressure, maybe that was the plan all along. . .

Will existing scout masters be expected to run the girl troop as well as the boy troop?

Why do they need to develop a new girl's program?   If the girl's are going to be eagles why can't the girl's just use the existing boy's program?

Step 1: Come up with a name for the Girl's program.

Step 2: Girls can use the existing Boy's program materials with no changes.

Step 3:  Make a Girls application form

Step 4:  Start forming Girl Only Troops

Done 

Things are very confused right now, last week I was asked while at the grocery store by someone who knows I am a scouter, who heard girls are joining Boy Scouts. 

            "Will the Girl Boy Scouts be selling cookies this year as well as popcorn?"

That honest question from a member of the public sums things up pretty well.   Since national has failed to actually name the new girls program the general public has been calling it the by the logical name of Girl Boy Scouts, I hear that all the time when people ask me about the new changes in Boy Scouts.

        I get asked, "When can my daughter sign up with the Boy Scouts?"

After I explain that it will be an as of yet unnamed girl only program that is separate from the Boy Scouts coming in 2019 I then most of the time get asked.

       "Will the current scout master be the leader of the Girl Boy Scouts?"

        or

        "Won't the Girls get to do stuff with the Boys?"

        or

        "If you have a troops of all girls with moms leading won't it end up all messed up like the Girl Scouts, the last few Girl Scout troops we had in town broke up quickly due to "mommy drama", shouldn't the Boy Scout troop run this new program since they have been around for more than 50 years with no drama issues to speak of?"    

I have to honestly tell them, I have no idea what is happening yet. The girl's program has not been written yet.

   Then I generally get asked.

"Why do the Girl Boy Scouts need a different program, why cant they just use the Boy Scout program as it is? Why can't the Girls just join the Boy Scout Troops, wouldn't that be easier?" 

I am seeing lots of angry push back in the news and on non-scouting message boards from the general public and from women in my town about the BSA's decision to allow girls to join has not gone far enough.

There is a lot of anger that the girl boy scouts will be segregated into girl only troops.  There is a hard push now to mix girls in with the boys in the same way schools are a mix of boys and girls. . . after all boy scouts do is camp and learn to tie knots and girls can do that right along side of the boys.  . .

Whatever the claimed motivations of national are do not matter.  The path BSA National is on is one of survival by any means necessary, money is the life blood of the BSA National. Anything in the way of making more money will be thrown overboard.  Anything they can think of to make more money they will do.  The dishonesty of national over the last year is a mountain of proof that they do not care one wit about being trustworthy. Money is more important then being trustworthy.

Just being up front and honest with the scouters would have been a much better way to do things.

I can not even get a straight answer from any of the higher ups as to what they mean by "family camping" and "family scouting".  They claim it does NOT mean co-ed scout camping, but they can not tell me what exactly it does mean.   We are living in a fog of lies, left wondering what national really means and what they are planing to do next and not tell us, what mind games they will be playing on the scouters to get them to go along with the plan.

This is all about money.  BSA is just a business.

The scout law and scout oath is being used to shame scouters into toeing the line for national as they use the BSA brand to maximize profits.   You can count on national to make more decisions to increase income down the road.

The only time you will see the pros do anything that will make the program better for the boys is when such a change will increase their bottom line.

They have picked money over being trustworthy and loyal to the current members.  

We believe this nation needs and deserves more youth focused on the foundations that still serve as bedrock of our movement — duty to God and country with a desire to help other people at all times.

Based on this way of thinking Mike Surbaugh has a free hand to change the Boy Scouts in any way he wants as long as he can claim it is helping girls or single moms or families or any other people. 

My question is how have the changes helped the Girl Scouts, if it is hurting the Girl Scouts then BSA National has broken the scout oath.

Therefore, while we have expanded the reach of our programs among today’s youth and their families, our name remains the same, and our brand will continue to be a source of pride that we will protect and foster as we look to extend the reach of our promise to more families. 

 

 

I think what he really means is the BSA BRAND is the best name that can be used to produce maximum profit, so we get to keep our name.

Pride?  I do not remember Pride being part of the scout law.  I am not sure being prideful is a good thing.

While our curriculum is relevant both to boys and girls, our commitment to single-gender offerings remains the same. Our decision does not make our programs co-ed.

 

I see, your decision does not make our programs co-ed. . .    but Mike Surbaugh could make a new decision at any time and instantly make BSA co-ed.

If you read what he said carefully the door is wide open to switch to co-ed at any time they wish to make a new decision.

They have made no promises to not go co-ed.   

How do you get 14-15 year old boys to come up with new fun ideas?

Good question. . . 

The answer, the scouter has got to be a scout and do some scouting.  Grab some books about interesting placing near your location and go and scout them out. Look for odd and interesting places with a story, great places to hike to and camp at. Then when you are sitting around the campfire with the boys tell them some stories of your grand adventures, get them inspired with ideas of what is possible. . .  I have seen this method work wonders. . .

or 

Make a big list of possible things your troop could do and give it to your SPL and PLs have them research the list themselves tell them they can add to the list.  They simply might not know what is out there that the troop can do and can not come up with any new ideas. They might have the idea in their heads that they can only do the thing that the troop has done in the past because that is what the adults want and they want to please the adults.   

The boys in our troop came up with the idea taking part in a "MUD RUN" this last week and that is something we have never done before, they came up with that idea all on their own and the adults welcomed it.

I was a scout in the 1970's. I was in from age 11 to age 17 and I made First Class, I earned only merit badges that interested me. I was not at all worried about advancement, I was too busy having fun with my friends and going on adventure after adventure. Quitting never crossed my mind back then, scouting was too much fun to give up. Scouting changed my life and made me a leader, it happened naturally, without me even realizing it at the time. There was no EDGE method and exact methods of teaching.    It was just a group of Boys making the adventure happen, our adventures that we picked and we shared leadership naturally.  The eagles in your troop didn't quit, they stayed around, they were having fun.

What happened?  What is this Cyberchip thing? What does Cyberchip have to do with Scouting? It is nothing more than an extension of what is already taught in schools.

What is with all this paperwork, powerpoint, flip charts, lectures? Did scouts turn into a school program?

What happened to the merit badge system?  How are scouts getting cooking merit badges without cooking? How are scouts getting welding merit badges for using a welder for no more than 5 seconds? And then not knowing what type of welder they were using let alone the first thing about welding.  Why are there merit badge mills that will pass out 3 merit badges to anyone that sits through a weekend of lectures and does some paperwork. . .

Advancement for advancements sake is boring, no wonder Boys are quitting and joining sports instead, at least they get to do something when they are part of sports.

If it is all about advancement then when you are done advancing then you are done.  

Scouts need to be outside doing scouting things.  Advancement and learning leadership should come naturally and joyfully as just part of the game of scouting.

I was a scout back in the 1970's I remember driving to Camparees listening to Disco on the radio. . .  We all had tons of energy and camparees were all about companion between patrols and lively campfires.

It was boys doing scout stuff for fun and it was really fun.  I was scout from 11 until I was 17 and I made First Class, it changed my life for the better. 

Just last year I went to a camparee and what did I see .  .  .  

Hundreds of scouts and scouters sitting in lawn chairs looking at smart phones most the day.

Scouts moving slow and looking bored with nothing to do. 

Three young eagle scouts trying to teach a class on knot tying, but did not know how to tie a bowline or taunt line or how to lash two poles together. They were fumbling around with their cell phones trying to figure it out. 

Lady scouters yelling at their boys lined up in a row at the top of their lungs for 5 minutes or more.

Scouters trying to convince scouts that scouting is fun and they should stay in.

Scouters frantic about pushing their boys to get their eagle by age 14 because cars and girls will distract them and pull them away.

Merit badge classes where scouts just sit around listening to someone talk and talk and talk. . . . school style.

Instead of normal campfire they had something called a "beading" that consisted of a group of crying adults insulting each other for 45 minutes with random patrol yells thrown in, they spoke of feelings and visions and leaving a legacy. . .  but the scouts and cub scouts watching this had no idea what was going on because it was all inside jokes, insults and expressions.   

This is what a camparee has become?  Really?

It appears to me the Boy Scouts has been damaged badly.  It has been transformed from a fun outdoor adventure into a boring advancement driven school setting.

The program has been changed to fit the needs of the current local leadership, leaders that don't like camping, don't do hiking and anything the least bit adventures is too dangerous.  What our local leaders can do is run a smart phone,  run a school style program with long boring powerpoint presentations, and push advancement.

The Boys Scout program is so broken that all we really have left is advancement, so that is all scouts do anymore.

Adding girls to Boy Scouts will make scouts seem even more school like, adults will have to take more control of the situation.  We are on a path from the old idea of the "Boy Lead Troop" to now form of scouting that will be nothing more than a "Class of Children in a Troop".   I see that even wood badge is now teaching that "Boy Scouts are Adult Lead".

I do not think the Girls themselves will be much problem. I do not think they can hurt Boy Scouts much, if at all. I think the big problem will be the new influx of leaders and parents that girls will bring with them that will push to make Boy Scouts a safe space for girls,  and bring to Boy Scouts the adult driven interpersonal drama that we already see in Girl Scouts.   It will require more control from the adults over the "children" to keep the peace.

Advancement is mostly boring, it that is all you do.

Boy Scouts has become boring.

Girl Scouts has become boring.

Being boring is why Boy Scouts is in trouble.

My question is has Boy Scouts become boring because of the program or because both the Boys coming in and new Scouters are boring and they bring a lack of energy with them. . .

I am a 51 year old Scouter (First class scout) that wants to go on long hikes, hike to strange and interesting places, go caving, explore ghost towns, go to Death Valley. . . lets go!

A Scout should be Scouting!