HashTagScouts

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

We need to transition to a troop is a troop.  Troops can choose to be boys only, girls only OR boys & girls.  IMHO, we're in 2023.  If YPT is address, this should not be an issue.

For me, the biggest mistake from the get go was BSA felt that there was a market to tap of X million girls, but never had a real grasp on just how many would actually choose to register with BSA. They very much overestimated how much the real demand was, and IMO felt it would become much like how we handled male Troops, that each town/CO would just be chartering a girls Troop. In our council, we only have had maybe 3 girl Troops start up that had more than double digit participants, and now just a few years on one of those is already struggling to keep 5 participants after the wunderkind older teens blew through Eagle in 2 1/2 years and aged out. The others started with 3-5, and have struggled to grow beyond those numbers. Only this year council has begun to wake to the reality that they needed to push these units to take a more broad focus and work collaboratively with Packs in other towns that have girls where a girl Troop doesn't exist to make the unit more "regional"- once that girl Troop has grown to a point where it has membership to sustain a break into multiple units, then let them do so, but until then it should be a multi-town unit. I was involved in a few introductory calls to help induce this for some Packs and Troops, and as much as we can knock National that they have a real struggle on how to recruit for Scouts BSA, these Troops were really obtuse that they cannot just rely on a feeder Pack and that older kids that are not/ever have been Cubs are not just going to walk in off the street.  

21 minutes ago, Calion said:

I’m sorry, what’s trolling? You said "Just like any other skill, the SPL discusses the gap at a PLC. They then ask an older scout from a different troop to come in and instruct or they ask an adult volunteer to come in an instruct. "

This implies that some older Scout from a different troop knows what to do to call for patrol yells. But I don’t know why an older Scout from a different troop will know something I don’t know, and that no one here seems to be able to answer. If you know who to look to for this answer, I’m all ears.

 

Meeting opening- after Pledge is said (add in whatever works for your Troop after Pledge- recite Scout Law, Outdoor Code, etc.):

SPL: Time for rollcall- Bacon Ninja Patrol?

BN Patrol Leader: Bacon Ninja Patrol all present or accounted for [salutes SPL]

Bacon Ninja Patrol members [in unison]: Sizzle-sizzle- pow!

SPL: Screaming Owl Patrol?

SO Patrol Leader: Screaming Owl Patrol all present or accounted for [salutes SPL]

Screaming Owl Patrol members [in unison]: Who! Who!

Our troop has done it this way for years, no prompt is needed for the Patrol Yell, but the SPL could have a prompt to ask after the PL salutes them "Patrol yell" as a cue.

1 hour ago, Calion said:

Are you serious? At Wood Badge, the SPL stands in front of the formation and says,  “all patrols, when reporting to a station, the PL confirms everyone is there and has the patrol give the patrol yell”?

 

People here seem to think that patrols giving patrol yells are at least somewhat important.
 

Awesome. Could you reference the page number in the Handbook that tells just when and how patrols give patrol yells? Or a Web page that does the same?

I was commenting on knots.

As far as patrol all, it is nothing more than a "whoop". Not sure why this has been such a long thread on something simple. At meeting opening, when the PL answers the SPL on roll call, the patrol just gives their patrol yell. That's it- a five second "whoop" from the patrol members.

8 minutes ago, Calion said:

And if no older Scouts know how to tie knots?

Sorry, what?

Nearly everything that is needed for rank advancement is contained in their handbook. There are also plenty of resources on the web. Don't just start having an adult teaching ten of them, challenge 2-3 of them to learn, and then have them come back and teach the others.

Chances National wants to advertise something that compete to their own programs? Zero. Many councils operate HA camps. You might check out this link: https://www.highadventurescouting.com/council.html

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

It depends on your goals for the trip.  I'm thinking energy dense breakfasts for long days of activities.  A light lunch gets you to the evening and is quick so that the kids can get back to doing the outing.  I'm pretty sure you'd have to eat a whole lot of oatmeal to get you through a 10 miles hike, upstream swims in 50F spring water, repeated rock climbs after quarry swims, etc.  Are kids just not as active in camp these days?  

If these are kids who just crossed over, those aren't activities I would expect to see on their first few campouts. 5 mile nature hike, some orienteering skill activities, totin' chit and just general fun getting to know the others in the troop would be about what I'd hope to see them working on before summer camp.

Avoid pancakes and french toast. Until they have some skills and experience, those are time-sucks for them. Both on preparation and on clean-up. Avoid homefries for the same reason.

Stick to pre-cooked bacon or brown and serve sausage and scrambled eggs or even oatmeal the first time out when it comes to breakfast. Lunch, grilled ham (or turkey) and cheese and cup-of-soup good starter lunch. 

Just keep it simple. This is not for advancement right now, it is learning to work together and independent of adults. Get that Troop Guide working with them on menu planning. While they should have had some exposure to cooking as cubs, at this level they should be learning to do for themselves. If there is time for some more lengthy prep for dinner, think about something like stir-fry chicken dish. Less grease to worry about. You can have several of them sitting at cutting boards of their own watching you to get practice on cutting vegetables, but don't just do it for them (once they get a few years under their belt, they'll come to realize that buying the pre-cut is better, but don't jade them on that right away  ). 

56 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

That looks pretty luxurious! 

I saw a review complaining about water leaking in during rain and the vestibule being unusable in rain - has that been your experience also?

Even if so, it's so big on the inside that might be ok.

I've used it once in the rain and another time in some light snow, and I didn't experience much of an issue beyond the usual when entering/exiting. I generally give my tents a spritz of waterproofing before I use them for the first time and each spring (heat bakes the waterproofing right out, and I figure these things have been in hot cargo containers or trucks before they end up in my possession). 

This is the newest model of what I use when camping and convenient to go from car to campsite: 

Skydome™ 6-Person Camping Tent with Screen Room, Rock Grey | Coleman

I like having the vestibule for early morning reading before everyone else stirs, and the headroom is my most favorite feature. I prefer to put my pants on without being on my back at my age :). Still rock my backpacking tent at times though, especially as I'm not a "primary adult" these days and camp one night many times.

It had been 5 x 10 and then a 20 miler. The past several years they did the 5, 3 x 10, 15, 20. The newest is 4 x 10 and then a 20. It is a jump to go from 10 mile to 20 mile. I would rather they dumped the 5 miler and kept the 15 miler as a conditioning opportunity- then again, it wasn't unusual that at least one of the 10 milers ended up being longer than 10 miles (unfortunately, not always planned to be that way).  

Swimming is always more popular than either cycling or hiking. You can see the 2022 rankings here: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/02/28/2022-merit-badge-rankings-a-new-chart-topper-emerges/ 

I'd say go for it. If you'd count the camping night(s) done for say Tenderfoot as part of the 20 nights for Camping MB, then why not allow this?

43 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

If National BSA would like to partner with Native Americans, they cannot go to 500+ different tribes.  They would need engagement & agreement from the largest Nations.  If they are on board and see benefit, then I think something can be done on the national level.  If this group isn't interested, then BSA is probably better off just breaking the relationship. 

 

The easier and more likely path is for BSA to simply stop all NA imagery.  Before doing that, I think reaching out to 10 leaders who represent nearly half of all Native Americans could provide an alternate solution.

I've said to just about anyone wearing a sash for several years now- the only group you should need buy-in from is on of the tribes that is part of the Lenape heritage. Every lodge around the country is representing the Legend that is claiming to be of the Lenni Lenape, so we all should be using regalia that fits into a certain standard. At that point, anyone who has issue with what we are doing has issues not so much with us, but with the group that was the inspiration for all of it. 

15 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

I do  not mean this as an insult, but there is nothing in my own personal experience with Scouting (I joined in 1975) that leads me to believe that BSA is the right organization to handle a sensitive issue like this successfully.  I mean that from National to local. I don't doubt that some professionals and volunteers could navigate this minefield successfully, but, again, my own personal experience leads me to disbelieve that such success would be across the board. I know National can't do it, and inconsistent results across councils or districts, or among different MBCs, will just cause BSA problems. I can think of a million ways I'd rather the organization spend its time and treasure than on trying to thread this needle, especially because I view it as being chiefly to appease adults, not youth. While I'd love for there to be a happy consensus of including NA elements into our program, I just don't see that happening.

National made a mistake IMO on forcing the issue to have every council have an OA Lodge. I was encouraged the question was asked if suspension of a Lodge is appropriate if they don't correctly follow policy. Resoundingly, I would say yes, every fraternal organization would take action if a local club/lodge/chapter was not following policy. Sadly, I don't see the BSA ever doing this. If they won't ever suspend a unit that they know is not following advancement policy correctly, doubtful they'd suddenly dig in when it comes to the OA and they'd just as soon end the OA. My free-form comments on the survey was do what they feel is necessary, but if taking out all of what is done today in the OA ceremonies, then let the Order of the Arrow end and give whatever comes after a new identity. Let the past be preserved, and let the future be an entirely new course.   

Regalia should imply a faithful reproduction of a Native American in attire they would wear in ceremonial events, whereas costuming should imply an attempt to represent what is perceived as Native American- often as day-to-day wear. Unfortunately, we've all too often mixed the two, and for anyone who has a firm historical understanding of Native Americans, all too often it has left some very caricature results. I don't believe there was intent in the hearts of most to do so, but it is appropriate to course correct when the differences become understood. Unfortunately, there has been little "policing" of regalia, and not a whole lot in the way of education to aide in the course correct. Our Section is on the fifth volunteer advisor, and I've lost count on how many have been in the staff advisor role, in five years. They are not spending time on what regalia each Lodge is using. The "mixed results" we see today are a problem, and one that needs some real effort to ever improve.

That they are asking questions in relation to Indian Lore MB doesn't surprise me. My own experience as a youth working on that MB at camp was discouraging in how pedantic the approach to "counseling" was, but I think many could say the same about a number of MBs earned at summer camps. I would prefer it was more structured into specifics, similar to how Citizenship in the Nation is- we give actual specifics we want the Scout to learn about in that badge, rather than a free-for-all. 

I had the sense this would be a broader review by the BSA. I don't take offense to a camp that bears a specific name of an actual Native American indigenous to the area the camp location, but fictitious names are an issue. Fictitious phrases/words that "sound native" are a problem too. I expect at minimum this is going to be a certainty that the BSA addresses as a result of this endeavor.  

39 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Well, what are you trying to do?   If the originators of Scouting saw it as a Christian thing, and B-P (and others)  sought to keep a spiritual component, but not a specific religion/faith,  and you seem to want to allow  (?) atheists and agnostics to still "do my best",  without acknowledging that spiritual component (or am I misreading your purpose here),  as I said:  "I am not sure what he (B-P) would make of the new movement to make Scouting un-religious.  The Scout should not be "required" to acknowledge that component?   Should she/he have to?  If others do not want to acknowledge any such component,  would that mean the other others would not have to acknowledge their belief in that component?  

I am HERE not merely because of some biological result.  There is more to my life (and yours!) than that..... 

If that is what you believe, then you are perfectly fine to believe that. You may well believe there is an actual answer in there, but others may not. You may well have convincement in that, others very well may have an entirely different point. The problem is - where is the ironclad proof that one view is right and the other wrong? The question for me is not should we allow or not allow atheists/agnostics, it is why do we need to even have it part of Scouting, especially when Scouting takes every possible step to avoid trying to "take a side" in this element? The BSA clearly doesn't believe that a side must be declared, considering that they have allowed Buddhists to be members for over a hundred years, have no issue with Hindus being members, or even wiccans. I know three individuals who earned Eagle as a youth that are atheists or agnostic today. Leave the twelfth point of the Scout Law, but if we aren't declaring an "arrival point" or consensus on what that spiritual point is that must be reached by age 18, then we need not make any declaration on it other than accepting that we are all trying to understand our purpose and it very well may be a true lifetime journey for us to have an understanding of what it is we believe.          

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Actually, if you search moral definition, most link it to religion.

But, to your point, if there is no source, then every SM has claim to moral definitions. Chaos. Units can teach whatever behavior they like and call it morality, and nobody could argue. The Oath and Law would have no foundation to stand on because behavior would depend on the emotional mood of the SM in that moment. 

The BSA points to one source, god.

So, where did the 10% come from?

Barry

Since 2014 Scouts UK allows atheists. The Scout Promise | Scouts

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I hadn't considered this. I cannot fathom starting a business meeting with a prayer.

Unfortunately for my child perhaps, I don't have very much experience navigating these situations with grace myself. It isn't a needed skill in Sweden, and in the US I hadn't experienced any until I moved to the South, and my method for dealing with it is avoidance. It probably helps that I work with people from all over the Earth and so it is plainly never a good assumption that most people present are Christian. The few times when it's happened I am so taken by surprise that this is really happening that I feel like a deer in headlights. Once I can run away I do. But that obviously isn't handling it with grace.

Any tips?

Encourage them to handle themselves showing respect - that can be just drawing themselves to the back and standing silently while others do their thing, explaining if anyone inquires that they practice a different faith but did not want to be a distraction to others. Hopefully they will find some that are open to asking them to help to make any future observance more interfaith, where your child can share some of their own religious practices. I've not had too many experiences of folks ever questioning my actions when it comes to religious expression, and I hope that you and your family are always shown the same respect. As long as you help them to not go into seizures if they experience someone of a different faith practicing that faith, and be prepared to explain why they believe differently, I like to hope they will be fine. If the unit they intend to join has a Scouter that is the unit Chaplain, engage with them. If they have awareness that your scout observes their faith differently than other scouts in the troop, they may have some suggestions on what the typical occurrences that the troop holds Scouts' Own, or wha the routine at camp typically is, etc. that can help you and your child prepare.   

1 minute ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I think I will contact them, thanks! I would love to strengthen our mahasangha by simply connecting. I know BCA has done a lot for Buddhist scouting. Bobby Tanaka with the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting is amazing. Actually, I should talk to him too.

Wait, they pray Christian prayers before meals, too? Well, at least there we have a form I could ask to substitute, our lineage meal chant or Plum Village's meal gatha.

When it comes to grace, it takes all forms. The summer camp my son attended one year had a dining hall steward that used only Native American prayers for grace. Another year they had a dining hall steward that only asked people to bow their heads for a moment of silence. Generally, I've never experienced any moment in Scouting where grace was said that went beyond what is found in the Philmont Grace:

For food, for raiment,
For life, for opportunity,
For friendship and fellowship,
We thank thee, O Lord. Amen.

4 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

This whole letting it all hang out is difficult for me, and part of that is definitely cultural.

https://satwcomic.com/the-easy-way

So they really do do Christian services at camps regularly? Sigh.

Does this mean I can practice my Buddhism as if I was at home? I've sat outside my tent, hoping that people write it off as trendy nonsense, but I try to hide my land spirit offerings and such because I don't want any questions. It's private. And I don't want to accidentally be seen as proselytizing to others' children! I don't know that I would be comfortable doing even foundational and Mahayana practices in public view even if others wouldn't mind, but I can't help but suspect that they would in fact mind. I'd hate to find out that they do, and ruin friendships.

Not sure what my scout will want to do, but it will be good to be clear from the start that they don't have to go and that it really is ok to be different.

We have CO's here in MA that are Buddhist. You may even want to contact them for advice on handling interaction with other faith traditions in a Scouting context.

https://sites.google.com/bliascouts.org/blia-scouts-boston

I am a deist that doesn't believe that God is a metaphysical entity in the way that Abrahamic religions do, or that it is even possible for humans to ever comprehend such an entity, but respect the right of others to believe as they do. As such, I generally do not participate in Scout's Own services but I will stand in silence out of respect to others during grace at mealtime. 

44 minutes ago, SPG said:

If you can provide a reference to BSA documentation supporting this definition, then I will gladly pass it on to the leaders in our unit. However, I will refrain from enforcing any such a rule as I believe that would go against the intent of the uniform. Per the insignia guide, the uniform is intended to be a medium to display "what each youth or adult member has accomplished with program opportunities...".  I fully encourage scouts/leaders to wear a complete uniform, but I would much rather a scout/scouter wear a 90% correct unform than get hung up on such details and discourage them in the process. I tend to apply Mark's statement that "No Scout is turned away or publicly admonished because he or she isn’t wearing the right thing."

Without evidence to the contrary, I assume the term "non-uniform wear" allows such pin/awards be worn without a uniform, essentially overriding the following rule. "It is the responsibility of all leaders of the Boy Scouts of America and especially of all commissioned officers and chartered councils to cooperate with the Boy Scouts of America in preventing the use of the official uniforms by those who are not registered and in good standing."

Finally, there are a number of items that are allowed to be worn on the uniform that are not explicitly approved in the insignia guide. I see no difference with the mentor pins.  Here are just a few examples:

• Wood Badge beads. They are explicitly allowed to be worn on the Sea Scout Uniform (which is typically cleaner than other uniforms) but no mention is made of them for other uniforms.
• Belt fob and camping beads. These are sold by the scout shop and are worn by many troops but are not mentioned anywhere in the insignia guide. 
• Several lodges have pocket patch sets that cover the entire pocket instead of just the pocket flap (as approved by insignia guide).
• The insignia guide outlines that "all members" are to wear nameplates with white text on black plastic. No other reference to nameplates or nametags is made. However, commissioners wear red nameplates, the scout shop also sells leather nametags, and many wood badgers I know wear wooden laser cut nametags.  Not to mention the countless scouts/leaders that do not wear nameplates.

In summary, a lot is left up to interpretation. I have no issue if someone wears something that they earned and supports scouting ideals.

 

I know an Eagle coach who's been at that role for nearly two decades. He has received numerous mentor pins over the years, but only wears a single one on his uniform. I wear my father's pin on my uniform, and I'd sooner quit than be told I have to take that off. At the end of the day, my feeling is if we're focusing on pins or knots on uniforms, then we must have absolutely nothing else wrong with our organization or units that could better use our attention.

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The best source for current knot line up is the Guide to Awards and Insignia page 64-66 in the 2022 Revision.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Scouting_Honors_And_Special_Recognitions_WEB.pdf

https://www.scouting.org/resources/insignia-guide/

To find the requirements for each knot, start on the official BSA Awards Central page, and look up by name...

https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/

I recommend you only use "official" BSA requirements sources (if you can find them).  Requirements and criteria do sometimes change...

As for the Wearing-of-the-Mentor-Pins on the uniform, I do not... my shirt would weigh about eight pounds 😜

I do like the "Proud Parent" type ribbons for displaying these.  They are "non-uniform" wear, but I wear it with my uniform at Courts of Honor.  (Here's my current...)

 

 

https://www.scoutshop.org/bsa-proud-parent-multi-program-neck-ribbon-620092.html

https://www.scoutshop.org/bsa-proud-parent-ribbon-643292.html

(There are no parent pins for Summit or Quartermaster... that I know of)

As for service stars... I kept losing them, so I don't wear them any more... the clutch (or back... we called them "frogs" in the military) would come off frequently.  I have littered many a camp parade field with them 😜  

I'll start correcting adults' (and Scouts') uniforms for those when 100% of them can do any First Class skill upon demand (knots/lashings/map & compass/first aid/swimming/lifesaving/etc).  (I've been working for that goal many years... come close a few times, but then some newbie comes along and ruins it!!!)

 

I highly endorse these:

https://www.amazon.com/Butterfly-Backings-Keepers-Replacement-Uniform/dp/B07PGVCDVX/ref=asc_df_B07PGVCDVX?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80058245652837&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583657823895553&psc=1

20 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I haven't seen any mention of GPS in either the wolf or bear adventures - did I perhaps miss it? Or can cub scouts perhaps earn merit badges? I thought you had to be in Scouts BSA for that. I'm not intending this to be for an award or an adventure, though, just think I see an opportunity to practice core scouting skills while having fun.

Cubs do not earn merit badges. There are Scouts BSA rank requirements for Second Class and First Class that require map and compass skills, and there is a rank requirement for First Class that requires GPS navigation skill. Good to get them some awareness of map and compass, but it wouldn't hurt to expose them to GPS as well.

19 hours ago, cmd said:

Thanks.  The charter org is pushing us to just make a google calendar to reserve the space, but it's hard enough getting the correct time on things in ONE calendar.  I guarantee we'll have things in the troop calendar at different times from what the room reservation calendar says and that when things get canceled or rescheduled they'll end up staying on the reservation calendar much longer than necessary.  Our units rely on the eBlast feature of our website to communicate upcoming events, so using JUST Google calendars seems like it would be unpopular. 

If troop web host can help with that it would be amazing. 

We tried to use our website for the source on notifications, in conjunction with the Crew and Pack, but it just never really was in synch. We didn't want to use FB, as youth are technically not supposed to have FB pages along with all the other host of issues FB can bring. We did start using Band, so it has a social media feel to it and allows us to have both the boy troop and girl troop in one community and send out notifications. You can set it up different ways so that notifications/events/sign-ups can go out to the whole community, or just to one troop, just youth, etc. https://band.us   

What Is dislike is it just breads more opportunity to dumb down program. Consider that for many a weekend troop campout would mean arriving at camp at 7:00 PM on Friday. Pitch tents, get gear organized, and you are in for an hour or so before hitting your sleeping bag. Cubs could get up and strike camp at 7:00 AM and never have actually participated in any cooking or meaningful activity, but ✔️ they did an overnight.

FWIW- I'll at least give credit that they are actually putting clarifications into the actual source that folks should follow. We asked questions to our Council to clarify the transportation policy update in 2017, and were pointed to a Bryan Wendell article that contained responses from Richard Bourlon, the BSA Health and Safety team lead, and told that was the guidance National indicated we should follow. Never saw the items we asked about ever get into the GTSS (and still isn't).