bearess

2 hours ago, gblotter said:

Of course boys need to respect and learn how to work with women. Who disagrees with that? These days, boys are surrounded by women in every aspect of there lives. During 7 years of schooling, my son has had a grand total of one male teacher so far. You don't think the idea of working with women as his superiors is getting pounded into his head hard enough yet? The great thing about Scouting was that boys could learn from male role models (for a change) as they negotiate a path through life. *sigh*

Is that really any different than when you were in school?  Elementary education is a pink-collar profession, and has been for the last century.  

And I think working with women as an adult is vastly different from having a female elementary school teacher.  Look at the #metoo movement— I guarantee every man being named had female teachers when he was young.

You know, we attend church regularly, and I suspect my older son (Boy Scout) would identify as an atheist if you pushed him.  But he goes to church with no fuss, doesn’t argue, easy breezy.  My BF goes with us, and I have no idea what his inner spiritual life is (I doubt he has one!!).  I suspect more on the agnostic side??  

It honestly never comes up in a Scouting context.  I know they have a brief religious service at Council camp outs, I’m sure my son goes without a peep.  I suspect there are lots and lots of Scouts and leaders like that— their personal faith (or lack thereof) is just not a big deal to them.  They don’t give it a lot of thought and go with the flow.

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

Well, not really "led", it sounds like Cubmaster is just hovering around his son's patrol, which I'm guessing is mostly a misguided effort to make sure his son is happy.  And along the way, expressing his juvenile resentment of the fact that someone else is PL, in the form of snarky comments directed at a 10 year old, brand-new Scout/brand-new PL.  It also sounds, from the original post, like the actual adult leaders of the troop are TRYING to have their New Scout Patrol NOT be "Webelos III", but they are being undermined by this parent.

Yup, exactly right on all points.  I’ve talked with the COR for the Troop quite a lot— we know each other outside of Scouts, his son is in the Troop too, he was the CM before this one, etc.  The adults in the Troop were aware this was going to be an issue (CM hovering), and they are working on it.  I have heard them correct him/interject many times— but they can’t be everywhere.  I think they are doing their best.

I did talk to the SM— he said that my son was goofing around when he shouldn’t have been, but SM spoke to him privately at the end of the trip and son owned up to that.  Fine, it’s a learning process!  SM said he’ll speak to the CM about his interactions.  So, a perfect resolution!

Sigh.  Talking more to my son, it seems the issue is he felt CM picked on him all weekend.  Apparently he kept calling him “Mr. Patrol Leader”, which really bothered him.  For example, son forgot to pack a flashlight— which he should have remembered!  So he was asking another boy if he could borrow a flashlight, CM overheard and said “Oh, Mr. Patrol Leader forgot a flashlight.  Well, you won’t borrow mine.”  Now, I’m not defending him forgetting the flashlight— live and learn.  But I can see how, after a weekend of that, you would be frustrated.

What’s challenging here is sorting out what is good advice/helpful from CM vs son’s frustration at feeling picked on/mocked.

In this instance, the Pack and Troop do not share a chartering organization or Committee.  There is some overlap between the two in terms of committee members/leadership— for example, the Troop COR is also a Den Leader.

Thanks for the feedback.  It’s a small Troop—just two patrols, so no SPL.  I’ll encourage my son to speak to the SM or ASM.

Quote

15 minutes ago, David CO said:

This is none of your business. Stay out of it. There might be a good reason.

 

There’s no reason.  We did four years of Cub Scouts with him, he was my sons den leader as well Cubmaster— hes just a helicopter Dad.

My son, 10, is a fairly new Boy Scout.  He is a patrol leader of a group of new Scouts.  Their Troop is transitioning to being more Boy-led— I know it’s important to the SM and ASM, and they are working hard on it.  He just went on his first camping trip with Scouts, and he worked hard to make it a success— and I think it was!

The issue is his old Cubmaster, who has a son in his patrol. CM and his son are very close, almost enmeshed.  CM grinds my son’s gears for various reasons, some of which are legit, some of which aren’t.  So, on the trip, the boys tented together—except for CM and his son, who tented together.  My son also made a “chore list” for his patrol, which had CM’s son and another boy doing dishes.   My son’s chore (cooking)  was done, and he was playing catch with another boy while dishes were being done.  Apparently CM came over to him and said “Mr. Patrol Leader, you can’t play till all the chores are done.  You need to go help with dishes.”  My son felt annoyed, felt that CM wouldn’t have said anything if it hadn’t been his son doing dishes.  CM does not currently have a role in the Troop, but I believe he will soon transition to ASM.

So... would you say anything to the SM or ASM?  Was CM out of line?  I wasn’t there, so I’m getting one biased perspective!  My son feels frustrated, like CM’s son always gets special treatment— which maybe he does, but that’s life!  OTOH, it seems absurd for a ten year old to eat/sleep with his dad, rather than his patrol.

Hey! My boyfriend wrote this article!

I've seen the model many times in the library (I don't live in Barre, but do live in the area). I never realized it was a scout, although a closer look would have clued me in.

Barre has done a really cool campaign lately to get more "modern" granite statues throughout town-- gargoyles on the end of bike racks, a granite "zipper" on the ground with flowers coming out (like you are unzipping the earth), etc. My boys' favorite is a life-size granite chair and couch!

I agree, denominations/COs get to vote with their feet. So do parishioners/girls. It sounds like the diocese is being responsible and giving troops a long time to find new COs. Around here most GS troops are chartered by schools, anyway.

I think they are all bred in captivity now, too. I'm a big fan of zoos, and I think they offer a lot of education around animals/threats that circuses don't.

I'm biased, because we have a great circus come to our town every summer that is only human performers-- kids love it. Heck, I love it!! So Imdont think a circus has to involve animals.

I will say, I took my older son to some small "travelling zoo" That set up in a grocery store parking lot when he was 3 or 4-- it was terrible. A tiger in a cage so small he couldn't turn around, etc. After that, I have made an effort to avoid anything where I have any concerns about animal welfare-- I still go to large zoos, but I avoid small zoos and circuses with animals like the plague.

The thing is, we don't know if kids are burning out because of extra years in cubs or not. I'd assume the biggest drop off in membership happens between Webelos II and Boy Scouts. It seems like that is the place to look.

I think, too, that it's really easy for us, as adults, to look at the Tigers or Lions (or, really, even Wolves) programs and feel like they are watered down or babyish or whatever. But they don't feel that way to 5, 6, and 7 year olds. To them, they feel like a big deal. Our Lions had to do a service project for one adventure. It was right after winter storm Stella, so they spent an hour walking around a residential neighborhood and shoveling out fire hydrants. They were so excited. Now, empirically, that's not the most exciting project ever. But, if you are five, it apparently is!

I'm also dubious of the idea that the older Cubs are bothered by younger kids being there. In my experience, they could care less. They aren't around them that much. They see them at Pack meetings, but those are pretty dull anyway. They are present at pack events (hikes, campouts, etc), but the older kids are doing their own thing while the younger kids do theirs. Unless the older kids seek it out, there isn't a lot of interaction.

This is our first year doing Lions. It's been great so far-- boys and parents like it and are enthused. It obviously remains to be seen how it will go long term-- I think all the Lion boys plan to stay in through Tigers. I suppose time will tell in terms of retention, but for this year, it's going great!

Can you just tell them that your pack isn't doing a Lion den? How long have you been doing Lions?

I see the arguments against Lions, but as a parent of young kids, most people I know aren't looking to add a new activity in third or fourth grade. Kids/families get set in their routines. Sure, some kids will join at those age groups- but I bet those are outliers. It seems like doing Lions/Tigers is going to get a lot more boys than starting later.

I think the report is accurate. But my point wasn't really about the accuracy- simply that, locally, I see lots of stories like that, as do most Canadians, so that's some context for the decision.

I go up to Canada frequently to visit family, and I find the crossing fairly easy both ways, although the Canadian border guards tend to be more relaxed/jokey.

Leaving the politics travel ban out of it, I live in a Canadian border state, and we have seen a lot of local news lately about Canadians being detained at the border/denied entry to the US. In a few cases, this has been because they didn't have their documents inorder, but in most cases it has been people who have crossed the border many times before with no issues. Here's an example: http://www.wcax.com/story/34459430/muslim-canadian-woman-turned-away-at-highgate-springs-border

With so much of Canada so close to the US, these stories are going to be more prevalent in Canada than in most of the US. I can't say I'm surprised by the decision, although I don't know if it was the right one.

Yeh, I had to put the stop on the boys going into the bar and getting the free popcorn there.  The image issue was a concern.  I told them that if they wanted popcorn, buy some and we can make it up in the kitchen.  They never questioned it after that. 

 

There was a second bar in the banquet hall were the boys met and although the boys used the stools to sit on during patrol meetings, they never went behind the bar.

 

The only concern I had is when the IH would come to "see how the boys were doing." and would be a bit over-consumed with a high-ball in his hand...... and the boys knew he had had too much.  We discussed it amongst ourselves and that was the end of it.

 

I think there is a direct ratio between adult hysteria and youth curiosity.

 

I agree, and I didn't grow up to be hysterical about alcohol (or guns). My kids see me drink, and they occasionally have a (very small) glass of wine or beer. BUT I'd be very concerned about the liability of having unsecured alcohol around underage kids. If the bar is in sight- but adequately secured- I'd have no issue. But in sight and unsecured- that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Love this.

Uhhhh.....no. I'm far from a teetotaler. My family is far from teetotalers. But there is no way Id have tweens and teens meet somewhere with a possibly unsecured open bar. If the bar is secured, maybe. But, honestly, probably not then either. That's for your protection and the COs. If a boy somehow gets hold of a bottle and harms someone while drinking, I suspect the CO could be held responsible if they hadn't taken reasonable measures to prevent that.

I'd also find the litter pickup a little off. Again, I like to drink. If I'm hiking with my kids or friends, sure, I'm bringing a few beers. But I'm not throwing back drinks on a Scout hike! Nor am I going to drink on a public service project. Just weird.

I realize the specifics of camping that far from adults isn't appropriate for all boys, and therefore it isn't appropriate for BSA.

But I think the general theme applies- boys (and girls, men, women) love to have a challenge that pushes them to the edge of their comfort zone and still allows them to master it. I think when BSA takes 'high adventure' to mean rock climbing walls and zip lines, boys miss out on the experience of mastering a genuine challenge, not a manufactured one. For some boys and some troops, lighting a fire with an dults twenty yards away is a sufficient challenge. For some boys, pitching a tent with an adult one yard away is enough of a challenge! But any experience where boys get to provide something 'primal'-- food, shelter, fire-- is always going to have a u ique thrill that doesn't exist in a more manufactured environment.

This comment has more to do with the co-ed scouting thread, but it see,ed like it belongs here. I think it is so easy for us, as adults, to forget how 'big' a relatively small event can feel to kids. And, weirdly, I think safe scouting deprives kids of real adventure and substitutes manufactured adventure.

Last summer, I went camping with friends and my boys. We were at a state forest on the edge of a lake. Our older boys (both nine years old) wanted to camp alone. There was an island about 200 yards from our campsite, so we let them pack their stuff for the night in a canoe and paddle over/camp alone. They got to build their fire, cook their dinner, and sleep alone. To hear them talk about it, you'd think they had summited Everest. But they can't do that in Scouts- everything is very controlled. Maybe that will change as they hit Boy Scouts, maybe not. But it's an area where I feel like Scouts is failing. Kids have so many opportunities to go on cool trips- after school clubs, parents, etc. They have few opportunities to really feel like they've had an adventure on their own. Scouts should provide that, but often doesn't.

Sorry but bsa COULD have ignored the gay and TG issue. Nothing was compelling them do change other than a minority opinion that change was "required".

No, not changing your policy as cultural norms change is still a "change". Were there any "out" gay Scoutmasters or Scouts in the 50s or 60s? I doubt it. By the 90s/00s, there were. That had to be dealt with in one way or another.

Look at the Dale case. The BSA was taken to court over its policy. Once that happens, you can't ignore the issue.

When one is in a downward spiral one has a few options to reverse it.  But first of all one has to quit doing what is causing the downward spiral.  Then either go back to what one was doing before the spiral started, or try something new to see what happens.  It's sad to say that the only one with a track record of working would be to go back to the way it was while it was fine before someone decided to "fix" it.  The other hand is a crap-shoot guess as to what might stop the spiral,  It may work or it may not.  It's sad, but one could keep trying to find new fixes, but by then it might be too late.

The trouble with this idea is that BSA can't just go back to what was working in its "heyday". There were many social factors that have changed-- BSA has to address those in some way.

People have referred to the increased popularity of camping in the 50s/60s vs today. There are more options for kids today as far as activities. An increase in the divorce rate and single parent homes means getting kids to adults ctivities is more challenging for some families. Our society has changed as far as gay/transgender individuals. In 1950 an organization could ignore that issue. By 1990, it couldn't. These things had to be dealt with.

Going back to what BSA was doing in p, say, 1955 isn't possible. They can do what they did then- but cultural changes have made it so that it wouldn't be the same program.

LOL. My boyfriend is 19 years older than me- we occasionally joke about the point when our age gap became OK. 38 and 57? Fine, who cares. 15 and 34? Eeewwww.

I know the YMCA does have origins as a youth program, but in my experience, it has always just been a gym. Occasionally they offer after school care as well. I don't really have a judgment on whether that is better or worse, but it is the reality.

As to changes, I guess it depends on what you see as the mission of BSA. as I've said on other threads, I think boys need a place to define themselves as men without girls around- otherwise their whole identity is wrapped up in performing for women.

However, the argument that any award is changed/lessened by the inclusion of females strikes me as absurd.

I can't imagine Lions are beating down the doors to sell camp cards!!

I think the pack camping and Pinewood issues need to be revisited, and I've provided that feedback to National. It's also important, though, to remember just how variable kids at that age are- lots of kinder boys are just not ready to camp, especially if it isn't something they are used to. A fun day event is much more their speed.

I understand that some may feel this means they aren't ready for Cubs, but that's a whole other discussion!