UncleP

I know that my question sounds foolish, since merit badges are such a big part of scouting.  However, I have noticed that my nephew and many of the other scouts in his troop seemed to concentrate on them to the exclusion of other things.  My nephew tends to be obsessive complusive, so it is worse with him them most.  I also think he is using the merit badges as an excuse not to deal with parts of the program he is unused to.  Retreating into reports and defining terms (things he is used to), to avoid dealing with the others (things he is not used to). 

I know merit badges are required to get promoted above First Class Scout, but is promotion really that important.  I was hoping that my nephew would learn from scouting 1) how to relax and enjoy himself (because of the way he was raised this does not come naturally to him),  2) to get used to being out in the world rather than holed up in his room with a TV and a computer (being a quite as possible, so he does not disturb his parents nabs), and 3) how to deal with people (not so much leadership as just getting used to be around people).

I would like to give him some good advise, but I do not really know what to tell him.  I know the decisions are all his, but he has such a limited perspective, that I would like to try and help him.  He has shown some improvement just from being outside of his room, and I like to continue to see that, but I am afraid of saying the wrong thing.

I would appreciate any feedback that I could pass on to him.

Thank you

I just got an email from Amazon with suggested books, and one of them was Donn Fender's book about his experiences.  I have not read, but here is a link to the Amazon page for the book in case anyone is interested:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DB365QG/ref=pe_851940_214197970_em_1p_6_ti

They also have a YouTube channel where they post their videos:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEmQR5W4PkcSLfLV96SOH7w

It is a good channel, and for a boy who learns best on his own the videos give him a chance to practice in between troop meetings.

This story appeared in my new feed, and it seemed so positive that I decided to share it:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/the-only-boy-scout-troop-where-age-doesnt-matter-it-was-like-coming-home/

Home sick, so I have been net surfing.  I found this movie about the Jamboree in 1953 at Irving Ranch, CA:

I certainly highlights how much the world has changed. 

I know you stated in a different thread that your nephew is not on the Spectrum, but from all the traits you've described, I think he might be. You said the dyslexic special education teacher would have mentioned something, but that isn't necessarily the case. Not sure about your state, but in California most school districts try their hardest to not identify the special needs that some kids have because then they are forced to spend a boatload of money and resources to help the child. Especially when it comes to autism. I know of parents who even had to sue the school district to get the help their autistic child needed. Children on the spectrum need special attention. Not everyone is up to that task, especially not a volunteer Boy Scout leader. The challenge becomes trying to educate yourself and others in the troop on how best to understand and deal with your nephew's quirks rather than just labeling him as weird and ostracizing him. Dropping him off at meetings and expecting things to work themselves out is not going to happen. You are going to need to do some research and work with your nephew to improve his social skills. Without outside intervention, these issues aren't going to go away on their own.

Than you for your suggestion.  I will look into it further, and see if this could be an issue.  My nephew has excellent verbal and written communications skills, but just does not get much of a chance to use them.  I still think that a great deal of his problems stems from his environment.  It is like growing up in solitary confinement.  You do not develop any social skills, because you are never given a chance to.  I know, because I was brought up pretty much the same way.  It was only when I started working and got kicked around by life that I learned how to work with people.  The world today is a lot rougher than 30 years ago, so I would like for my nephew to learn these things in an easier way. I a trying to teach him some of the things I learned, but I want him to get all the help he can.

Uncle P,

 

The description you're giving of your nephew is of a child who needs professional help, as wonderful as scouting can be, what your nephew needs is even more.  If you can find any way to help him get some counseling, either by intervening yourself or by working through his school please do whatever you can to get him involved with some mental health professional as soon as possible.

Thank you for your suggestion.  At his school's psychologist suggestion he is already seeing a counselor, but it is a long process.  It was the counselor who suggested they try and get him into some outside school activity.  I thought scouting would be a good fit, because he likes animals, the outdoors, and always wanted to see the places other ids were talking about.  Unfortunately, I did not really understanding scouting.  I thought you just went camping and hiking, and that the adults ran everything. 

I had never heard of "boy led", "positions of responsibility", or the "patrol method".  So scouting may not be as good a fix as I originally hoped, but I want him to keep trying.  If he quits he will feel bad about for now on.  His counselor still thinks it might be helpful, and at least give him more in common with other boys. 

Problems seldom have one cause, and almost never have one solution.  The scouting and the counseling both increase the chance of him improving.  I just think now with all the changes he is getting a little overwhelmed.  I am trying to convince that "less is more", and that the less he tries the more he will accomplish.  If he could just relax, that would be half the battle.  I am starting to think that maybe I am causing some of the problem.  If I show some confidence in him, and take my own advise, I think that would help him to calm down.

Given time, he'll figure it out.  He's smart and it will take only one or two boys to break the ice with him and then maybe things will start to normalize.  He won't be the center of attention, but maybe some of the fear will subside.

 

You're on the right path and it sounds like you're doing everything correctly for him.  Even if the scout thing doesn't work out in the long run, he will definitely remember the effort you have put in for him and that will count more than anything else for him.

Thank you.  You are so right about time.  As long as he keeps at it, he will get there.  If my nephew has any one special talent it is being a hard worker.  I would like him to stick with the scouting until he makes First Class.  He can then decide what he wants to do.  That way he will have given things a fair chance, and if he decides to try something else he will neither be quitting nor failing.  If he thinks he succeeded (at least a little) that ca be something positive he can build on.

UncleP, thanks for the update.   I know it's difficult for the time being, but things are bound to get better.    Your insights and support are invaluable.  

Thank you for your kind words.  I think things will get better, but it is like stitches - as they heal they start to itch.  As we deal with all of this it brings up a lot of "garbage" that we normally do not deal with.  But it is better to deal, with it now rather than later.

I took the advise I was given and emailed my Nephew's Scoutmaster.  I explained to him my nephew's situation, and pointed out some pitfall that occur with him.  The main one being to overestimate him.  In school because he is a good student and mature, they are always trying to use him to tutor another kid, or so other duty.  The results are always the same - disaster.  With each disaster he becomes that much more misanthropic. 

I acknowledged that my nephew has to meet the same requirements as everybody else, but asked him not to push him too hard on the social items.  I thought that just sticking with something, getting out of his room, and maybe having a little fun was all that mattered.  That he would never be a "Normal Rockwell" type of scout, but that he would never be a burden.

The scoutmaster replied, and said that he had already noted some of the things I told him.  He said he never seen anyone so little people skills. He said that even after just a couple of months his relationship with the rest of his patrol is so bad, that for all practical purposes he is not really a member of it. My nephew's scoutmaster said that he would take into account my nephew's situation. 

The scouting experience so far has been a mixture of good and bad for my nephew.  He loves he camping, hiking and biking (as well as just getting outside an being able to move around).  However he finds the troop meetings and being part of a patrol to be almost more than he can stand.  When I pick him up after troop meetings, he looks like he has been ill. 

I made my nephew promise me that he would stay with scouting until at least he got to First Class rank.  In the meantime, I am trying to get him to concentrate on the positive parts of scouting, so that it will keep his spirit up. 

Yah, @@UncleP.  I forget... is the lad on the Spectrum?  

 

I'm in the "don't worry about it right now" camp, but not the lie camp.  At some point, yeh can drop a note to the SM and tell him what you've told us, eh?  That the lad really doesn't have friends at school or in the neighborhood.  Most SMs will understand and work it out with the boy.  Really good ones will chat with his Patrol Leader and encourage some other boys from the neighborhood to ride by his place and invite him out on things.

 

Beavah

Thank you for your response.

If by "Spectrum" you mean autism, then no he is not autistic.  He had dyslexia, but received special education and over came it.  They say he is hyperactive (but what boy isn't).  If he suffered from autism the special education teachers would have found it.  The problem is the environment he is in, and how he has over-adapted to it.  Being silent, solitary and emotionally unresponsive is required to deal with his family life.

I am going to work with him, about taking things one-step-at-a-time.  The problem he is used to planning everything in detail just to get out of the house, and it carries over.  He may also have some obsessive compulsive disorder.  I have told him that nobody is going to make him do anything he cannot do, or does not want to do.  I told him that if he spends years in scouting and never gets beyond tenderfeet but enjoys himself, he has succeeded.  A sense of having some control over his life would do him a world of good.

One of the things we had to promise his parents to no one would come to their house.  His father has such a "tough job" that when he comes home he wants to be comfortable, and he cannot do that with people in the house. 

I hate to say it, but does any of this border on abuse?  If some was throwing rocks and dirt at my kid, I'd have the police involved.  This dysfunctional situation is way beyond a normal upbringing for a child.  Your call, but I would be VERY concerned.

Thank you for your concern.  I checked and though it is bad parenting, it does not meet the definition of abuse.  I am afraid that dysfunctional family life is the norm in my family.  I am concerned, that is why I am trying to help him. 

The world is full of bad people.  At this time, my nephew has no skill set to deal with them.  I want to help him develop people skills that will allow him to deal with people in a positive, socially acceptable manner.

Thanks to everyone for their comments.  I think it helped.

To clarify things:

1.  I did not mean any criticism of the Scoytmaster.  I think he is a fine man, putting a great deal of time and effort i nto a job, whose only rewards are intangible.

2.  I have been trying not to ask too much of the scoutmaster, because I do not want my nephew treated as special.  I do not want him to grow up and be a "snowflake" that as an adult has to be given a teddy bear and crayons, because someone says something he does not like.

3.  He literally knows no one -

      a.  SCHOOL: He goes to public school, but I do not think he knows the name of one of the other kids in his class.  At recess the other kids throw rocks and dirt clods at him.  When he told his mother this, she said that he should be grateful that they were paying attention to him, and should thank them.

      b.  FRIENDS:  His only friends are his dog and his cat.

      c.  OTHER ACTIVITIES: He has none.  His mother is afraid he will "spend money", or that the all important neighbors might not approve.  His father does not want him to make any noise, and disturb his endless series of naps.

      d.  RELATIVES HIS AGE:  The closest one he has is his sister who is 6 years older and, though I should not say this, is as mean as they come.

      e.  CUBS:  He once asked to join, but his father thought it would cause noise, and disturb him.

When not at school he has to stay in his room, so that he does NOT make any noise that will disturb his parents.

I think the best thing is to do as suggest and do not overthink things.  Also my nephew takes everything very literally, and has an all-or-nothing attitude.  To tell the truth, I told my nephew to lie and say he did it when he had not done it.  But his honor means a great deal to him. 

I have been encouraging him to not concern himself with advancement, and to just concentrate on the things he enjoys.  He has already taught himself so much.  Being outside and getting to move around is like a dream for him.

 

3. Only SM can sign off on the 1st Class "invite a friend" requirement since that one was troublesome in the past.

Excuse my ignorance, but could someone provide some detail on this requirement.   His Scoutmaster is always asking the boys to invite a friend to scouting, and when my nephew tells him that he does not know anyone, he will not take "no" for an answer.  I am certain that he means well, and is probably required to do this, but he seems to have trouble accepting that my nephew cannot do it. This has become sort of a "boogieman" for my nephew.  I want to help him deal with it, but I do not know what to tell him.

I thought the "invite a friend" things was just a "throw away" item.  Something they put in, because it looks good but nobody really takes seriously.  If he cannot do it, will this cause a problem?

I have told my nephew not to be concerned with advancement, and to just do the things he likes.  He loves the outings and learning new skills, but things like this requirement "vex" him more than I can describe. 

The Boy Scout fiction of the pre-WW II period is very inexpensive on eBay,

You can get a great many of these books for free on "archive.org".  They even have recorded readings of some book:

https://archive.org/details/librivoxaudio?and[]=boyscouts

Much of this literature is before WWII and even WWI, and some was done with the Boy Scouts authorization.

I found this odd bit of history and thought I would share it.

This film starred Randolph Scott and was shot in 1936.  When they did location shooting in Sherwood Forest, CA, the studio hired and Eagle Scout to show the actors playing Indians how to start a fire with flint and steel.  The link below is to a source for this information.

Just an interesting bit of trivia.

http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/80897/The-Last-of-the-Mohicans/notes.html

Finally, I get to use my management degree.

The management phrase is "span of control".  This refers to how many people report directly to a leader.  Most organizations prefer to have as broad a span of control as possible, so that they will require fewer manager (less costs).

A narrow span of control is preferable for boy scouts for the following:

1.  Creates more leadership positions, so more boys get a chance at these positions (since scout are not paid salary costs are not a concern).

2.  Capability of Workers:  The less skilled the workers, the narrower has to be the span of control.  Since scouts are perpetually in a learning phase, this would justify a narrower span of control.

3.  Capability of the Leader:  The less capable a leader is, the narrower should be his span of control.  Since a Patrol Leader might be new to the position, this again would justify a narrower span of control.

4.  Variety of Tasks:  The more varied the tasks that a worker has to do, the narrower should be the span of control.  Scouting requires a large variety of tasks, so a narrower span of control is justified.

5.  Person-to-Person Contact:  The greater the person-to-person contact, the narrower should be the span of control.  Many large organizations have increased the number of people reporting directly to a supervisor, because of the increased use of information technology.  Since scouting relies on person-to-person contact for the majority.

So the conditions of scouting dictate a narrow span of control.  The "6 to 8" size is pretty classic and has been around forever.  It just seems to be a natural number for a group.  I read some of Baden-Powell's writing and he cited this as the number of boys who naturally form into a "gang", and he was trying replicate this with the patrols.  Any more and you get lost in a crowd, any less and it stops being a formal group and becomes a collection of individuals.

Full disclosure, based on my own personal experience, I have problems with the Patrol Method.  I favor the Pareto Principle (that states that 20% of the people do 80% of the work).  All small groups do is get in the way of the one-or-two people actually doing something.

Just for fun, I found a video done by two YouTubers one an Eagle Scout and one a former British Boy Scout discussing the differences between the two organizations.  Both men are now adults.

Warning some of the the discussion is a little irreverent (?). 

Apparently, the former British scout was surprised by the religious aspects of BSA and the merit badges involving shooting.

The American Boy Scout was surprised by the length of the hikes.

From their discussion, it looks like British Boy Scouts does not have a rank similar to Eagle Scout.  From what I have learned, some of the information given in the video is incorrect.

I am speaking as an interested outsider to scouting, so I am speaking out of ignorance and about to make a fool of myself.

I have read the other comments and agreed and disagree with parts all of them.  When my nephew got interested in scouting I did a great deal of research on the organization.  Obviously I did not look on things as a scouter or even an ex-boy scout – having never been one.  I look at it from an organizational level, and as someone deeply concerned about the way boys are treated in our society. 

First the treatment of boys:  In my impression boys today are all treated like criminals who have not yet been caught.  An episode of “The Simpsons†titled “Girls Just Want to Have Sums†satirized this attitude.  When the elementary schools is split between boys and girls.  The girl’s side is all unicorns and flowers, and the boy’s side looks like “Mad Maxâ€:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vpiMo4FEAA

Oddly, Lisa when she pretends to be a boy uses the last name “Boymanâ€, and boy man was a term used to describe Baden-Powell in some of the literature I read about scouting.

I think that the problem that most people have with the Boy Scouts is not so much the issues of gay scouts, but with boy scouts.  I noticed that in all the discussion on BSA’s gay issues, was that what was best for the boys themselves was seldom if ever discussed.

I think the issues is not opposition to boy scouts, but opposition to boys.  Unfortunately, the BSA can do little if anything on this issue.

Organizationally:  BSA faces one of the greatest challenges an organization can face.  To adapt with times, without losing its core mission.  Doing either one is hard, but doing both is almost impossible.  As an example of an organization that adapted, but loses its core, look at the store “Abercrombie & Fitchâ€.  A&F started out selling outdoors clothing and equipment to professional outdoorsmen.  The store was the outdoors goods store.  It was used by Teddy Roosevelt, Admiral Peary, Charles Lindberg, and Admiral Byrd.  Today it exists and is profitable, but is basically associated with anything but the outdoors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Abercrombie_%26_Fitch

The BSA from my research maybe making a similar decision.  I recently read about the STEM Scouts.  The article cited as its big selling point that the program would be co-ed and would help eliminate the gap in women’s employment in STEM fields.  Boy Scouts main goal is to help girls?  What about helping boys?

How the BSA can resolve this issue without either becoming extinct or changing beyond all recognition, I do not know.  I would be interested in what others think.  I know that a continued commitment to a strong outdoors program has been mentioned in previous discussions.  How this can be done in a world of over-scheduled boys with decreasing familiarity with the outdoors I do not know.

Finally, to get back to the original issue – is boy scouts thriving.  I hope so, but think it is too soon to say if the change in policy will have any effect.  I think ending the controversy increases the potential that scouting will thrive, but not make that happen all by itself.

The mantra I repeat to the new guys every year is "Scouting is about leadership.  Leadership is about responsibility.  The first step in learning responsibility is being responsible for yourself."

 

Maybe as a congratulations for a good week at camp, you can get him a book on knots and some paracord to practice on.  Ask him to show you how to use a knife safely to cut it into lengths that he can practice knots with and ask him to show you how to fuse the ends of the paracord so they don't unravel (otherwise you would have a frayed knot... get it "afraid not"?) .  He should have learned those skills at camp.  I've found that learning knots (and lashings) are great for kids like your nephew because it is something they enjoy learning and because at some point someone will ask "does anyone know how to tie a bowline knot?" and he will feel empowered.  You could even ask him to teach you the knots he learns using the EDGE (explain, demonstrate, guide, enable) method.  Notice that everything I'm recommending is turning the tables -- he is showing and teaching you what he learned by himself.  How empowering is that?

Thank you for the suggestions.  I think I get the underlining theme.

I will get him some paracord to practice knots with.

He has already located a website "Animated Knots" to learn knots from.  It even has a specific webpage for "Scouting Knots":

http://www.animatedknots.com/indexscouting.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.png&Website=www.animatedknots.com#ScrollPoint

He likes learning knots, because he can work on it by himself and at hos own pace.

I wanted to thank everyone for their kind words, encouragement and advise.  It all helped me to help my nephew a little more.

You cannot imagine how much it meant to him to be able to go in-and-out a door without having to sneak through, so he does not wake his father up.  To talk to someone without his mother acting like it is a mortal sin.  To even breathe air that does not smell of his father's flatulence. To him it was a miracle.

I think he is having trouble dealing with the other boys, but that was to be expected.  He has not had much of a chance to build social skills.  I cannot help him there, because I have been described as having the people skills of Count Dracula

But that might be a good thing.  I think what I need to do is keeping supporting him, but to back off.  To show confidence in him, and to let him try, fail and succeed on his own.  I know he will do good, I just need to act like it.  The most important thing for him to develop the initiative and self-reliance he will need to make it in this world.  I am a control freak, so this will be my big assignment.

Thanks to everyone again.

When my Nephew joined scouts, I made a donation to the San Francisco Bay Area Council.  They use "Rally.org".  I put in the "notes" section that if possible the funds be used to support scouts who could not afford scouting.

Maybe you can start up a page like the San Francisco Council.

Below is a link to their page at Rally.org:

https://rally.org/SFBAC

I should state that I do not know anything about Rally.org other than that the San Francisco Council uses them.

I would be willing to donate.  It would be purely for selfish reasons.  The way things have been going lately, I need all the good karma I can get .

​

I want to thank everyone for replying to my question.  I have learned a number of things:

1.  I will never be able to completely internalize the way scouting works, it is just too different from my own life experiences.  It's like the old Marx bother's joke - "Are you going to believe me or your lying eyes".   I am just too much of a loner, and too used to living in my own world.

2.  It is not necessary that I understand, because my nephew is the one doing things. 

I think I need to do the following (in order of importance):

a.  Have confidence in him and let him try and fail and succeed on his own,

b.  Give me emotional and spiritual support, so that he will stay in scouting long enough to get the benefit from the program, and

c.  Help him with his expenses, so his parents (with 900 cable tv channels) will not make his life miserable about "all that money".

My hope is that the experiences will make my nephew "more normal".  By that I mean give him a few good memories, make him happier, and able to function in the world.

I know he can do it - he is smart, has an incredible talent for hard work, and a good soul.

Thanks again