Rock Doc

On 4/16/2019 at 7:49 AM, Cburkhardt said:

Our own Troop received about $2,000 cash from two Episcopal Churches to help pay costs of under-resourced Scouts.  The volunteers who started the troop absorbed about $5,000 of start-up costs.  Starting brand-new Troops is expensive and time-absorbing.  Our first year budget is $40,000.  There are good reasons why so many new Troops fail in their first five years, but the principal reasons are lack of experienced Scouter involvement and failure to plan.  New Troops need to raise more and charge higher dues, which puts them at a recruiting disadvantage with historic troop with well-build financial stability and low dues.  Our group is well-staffed and has a good plan.  I hope experienced Scouters reading this will step forward and actually assist new Troops now forming.  There is no substitute for direct involvement.

Just curious about the breakdown of the $40,000 annual budget. Our 40+ scout troop probably operates on a tenth of that amount. Are you including the costs for summer camp or super trips?

45 minutes ago, TMSM said:

This has been a problem with our troop for the last few years. Our older scouts did not have this requirement and have no idea how to teach this. Typically they (first class and above) sign off on requirements and we had a few sign off on the use of a car GPS using a street address. As SM I feel that the BSA is an outdoor program and a handheld should be used in the back country or while camping for 4b. Our solution was to have a meeting with the scouts and discuss what they felt should be taught and learned in this requirement. The consensus was to learn waypoints, lat/long, working the interface on a hand held so that GPS skills would be ready for high adventure. We also talked abput maps vs GPS which was very interesting.

 

We were in the same boat - older scouts not having the experience to teach the younger pre-First Class scouts. Our PLC decided to try GPS orienteering, essentially combining a skill they knew (map and compass-based navigation) with GPS coordinates to identify the control points. Hopefully, they will build upon this activity during extended  backpacking trips and start to fully utilize GPS (way points, tracks, analyzing rate of progress over varied terrain to help refine future treks, etc) while retaining map reading skills.

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Pretty good. 

Now, how about those knots?

Barry

My crossovers do seem to struggle with the left handed, double cork 1080 alpine butterfly. Knots by Grog hasn't been helpful. Any suggestions?

Thanks for all the great feedback. Sounds like the consensus is:

• Keep it FUN and don't make the requirement too burdensome!
• Suggest to the PLC that they consider teaching GPS skills using a simple short course at a local park or CO campus (maybe use geocaches as motivators?)
• Smartphones, dedicated GPS units, and fixed units all have pros/cons; learn them
• Incorporate GPS skills into campouts/activities to encourage mastery (not required for advancement)
• See if you can find a pilot to take you flying!!!

17 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

To me, the requirement is intended to teach that GPS navigation is valuable for certain situations, but is not quite superior to compass/map.   Smartphone GPS especially is reliant on satellite and cellular signal triangulation (and in most cases, internet signal to download the map).  If you are in a backcountry area with limited to no cellular signal, it can be pretty widely imprecise.  A dedicated GPS unit is  typically more reliable. 

This requirement itself is just a basic learning experience, so I wouldn't ask a youth to use the GPS and locate a spot 5 miles away and walk the route.  I have used it within a scout camp and within a local park and had the scouts pick a spot that was perhaps a 15 minute walk, which gave them some perspective (much like with a compass/map) that as much as they need to give attention to the GPS, they also have to lift their head and watch where they are going.  I have a pretty high-end GPS unit, with topo maps for most of the Northeast loaded- I used to do geocaching, but haven't in a bit- but most basic GPS units don't have full topo maps included.  So, lesson learned that just because the GPS says to go directly north for 1,500 feet doesn't mean the GPS understands that there is a ravine ahead, or a river, or a building, or a jungle gym, etc.     

I would, in your shoes, not sign that requirement, but offer to the scout we'll take some time on our next campout (or, even offer to meet them and their parent on a Saturday morning at a local park) to do this exercise to get them their sign-off.  Encourage them you are glad they had that experience, as they now understand the basics of how the GPS navigation works, so this will be an easy requirement for them to complete when you get together. 

 

Some good stuff here! We've found an Android smartphone app called "Backcountry Navigator" (free) does a nice job of allowing 7.5-minute quad topo downloads over wifi or cellular for use when there's no cell signal at all (smartphone GPS receiver still works without cell signal). Google Earth (free) is also great for selecting coordinates of features to be used in a GPS course. So, with a little prep it's pretty easy to set up a course in the local park, or even around a shopping mall or other large open space.

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Well, while I understand outdoor adventure of Boy Scouting is a natural influence for your "learning how to use a GPS for backcountry travel", I don't see that much detail in the wording of the requirement. 

I think back of the compass skills I learned as a youth, I was pretty good. Yet, I learn those skills on compass courses in town. I later got to apply those skills on adventure trips and enhanced my skills.

I can't say you are right or wrong, but I think adults should model honesty in the respecting the rules.

I think what set our troop program apart from many programs around us is that we broaden the experiences of many requirements by adding adventure. If you want the scouts to gain more from any requirement, set up an activity to give them that adventure. Hey, maybe even figure out how to use a drone to add fun. Be creative.

Barry 

I hear you and agree with your sentiment - not everything has to be geared around high adventure and skills are scaleable. I keep harping on the use of car-based GPS because Second Class scouts are almost always not yet driving and therefore couldn't independently apply the skills. That's why I'd lean towards teaching GPS skills at a local park or even the CO facility if it's reasonably large. A simple course could be set up with way points/coordinates to help scouts learn the device's input interface and understand the level of accuracy of different devices in different settings (tall buildings, tree cover, etc).

7 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

a better choice of wording to the requirement would be helpful.  As first Class scouts aren't going to be typically of driving age, and that the navigation requirements follow a progression from previous ranks, I would say the intent is land-based navigation and plotting course.  if you read the first part, I feel the author of this requirement was trying to distinguish from using a car navigation setup:

4b. Demonstrate how to use a handheld GPS unit, GPS app on a smartphone, or other electronic navigation system. Use GPS to find your current location, a destination of your choice, and the route you will take to get there. Follow that route to arrive at your destination.

Agreed! So, how would you react if a scout showed you a video of him being driven along his chosen route (using handheld or built-in system), and asked for credit for requirement 4b?

15 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

To answer question, it would depend on the knowledge he gained from the experience.

What exactly do you think are the minimum skills that are intended to be learned? What do you think are the additional skills the scout would enjoy experiencing to broaden his knowledge and enjoyment from the requirement. My previous post still stands, guide and advise the scout to broaded the experience beyond the minimal requirement so that the scout not only learns the minimum skills, they also have fun. Scouting should be fun and adventurous. Help the scout have fun and adventure.

Barry

I think that your comment "it would depend on the knowledge he gained from the experience" captures the problem precisely. We should not be making judgment calls to determine completion of rank requirements. It should be black and white.

As to my perspective on the minimum skills that are intended to be learned, I'd lean towards learning how to use a GPS for backcountry travel rather than car-based travel. So, selecting a route between trail side campsites using coordinates rather than street addresses. I completely agree with wanting to promote the spirit of fun and adventure, and would never create abitrary roadblocks or hold scouts to higher standards than required. I just see the example I cited (programming a car navigation system and having a parent/guardian) drive the scout along the route as more befitting a Cub Scout, where it would be shared experience, but would not pose much of a challenge to a 11 or 12-yr-old (who is likely already coding, etc)

Barry,

You are correct, although this is a rank requirement not a MB. The text for 4b just seems a tad vague for a rank requirement. Would you give credit if a scout programmed a route into their parents/guardians car navigation system and were then driven along the route?

1 minute ago, MikeS72 said:

4b only specifies using some type of GPS device, making a scout use it in conjunction with a map would be adding to the requirements.

We frequently travel several hours for backpacking, kayaking, camping, etc., and always use GPS to plot those routes.  One caution we give our scouts about being overly dependent on GPS, is that sometimes construction is going on that temporarily changes where an exit on the highway may located.  We also remind them that if the GPS device they are using is a phone, it's usefulness ends when the battery dies, at which time you better be well acquainted with map and compass skills.

I agree that we can't add to the rank requirement. However, people frequently end up driving into rivers, lakes, dead end streets, etc., by blindly following GPS directions, so truthing the chosen route using a map is a helpful cross check, even if not required. Also, scouts should understand the limitations of navigation devices that don't include a pre-loaded base map, for example many geocaching devices, that function more like an electronic compass.

First Class requirement 4b reads in part:

"Use GPS to find your current location, a destination of your choice, and the route you will take to get there. Follow that route to arrive at your destination."

I'd be interested to hear your opinions on what you believe the underlying intent of this requirement is meant to be. For example, GPS can be used in a variety of environments and settings, including urban/suburban/backcountry/surface water bodies, etc. Since the last sentence requires the scout to physically follow the route chosen, would it be acceptable to follow the route while being driven from point to point with the scout calling out directions? Or is the intent to use GPS in concert with maps to plot a backcountry route avoiding difficult terrain or bushwacking? Or anything in between? It seems that the first option requires little to no skill and could be as simple as parroting an automotive GPS' verbal directions, while the latter could be quite challenging.

Thoughts?

2 minutes ago, malraux said:

Certainly the way the local council reads it, it’s 72 hours at the location/event. Ie resident webelos camp is designed to last exactly 71 hours to avoid the issue. But if you include travel time you will exceed the 72 hours. 

Our council handles resident camp the same way, and travel time is only 30 minutes. We're looking at 6 hours round trip, which makes things a little different in my opinion

7 minutes ago, Chisos said:

I'd include travel time if we were traveling as a group.  So, if we said, "Meet at the Scout Hut at 4pm to drive to the campout" then the start time is 4pm.  But if it was "meet at the campsite at 6pm" then that's the start time.

I agree with your approach. The issue we're discussing is for a Webelos/AOL scout den campout 3 hrs from home. Most scouts will travel with their own parents, but a couple will be without parents and carpooling. Given the distance involved and ride-sharing, I see the travel as part of the event.

Looking for input to help with an on-going "discussion". To determine if an event is greater than 72 hours in duration (requiring Health Form Parts A, B, and C, and 100% registered adult participation), do you include travel time to and from the event? The GTSS doesn't address the matter and neither did the old Tour Permit/Plan. My personal opinion is that travel typically poses greater risks than the actual on-site event, and should be included as part of the event. But I'm interested in your thoughts...

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

The time commitments you mention are interesting. The local BALOO starts at 6 PM and ends at noon the following day. The IOLS & BALOO event starts at noon and ends at noon the following day. Both end up being overnight.

I have no current plans to be an ASM/SM in the near future but I thought it might be nice to still have the training under my belt in case that changes in future years. I would imagine that it is once and done - that it never expires?

Currently, I am a Webelos/AOL Den Leader and I am not sure what I will be asked to do come 2019.

If you are a Webelos/AOL Den Leader then you should absolutely take IOLS, as it prepares you to function as a patrol and will help you better prepare the AOLs for life in the troop.

Long overdue!

https://oa-bsa.org/article/2018-membership-update

Our PLC meetings are also open to all youth who want to participate. It's usually just the SPL/ASPL, PLs, Scribe, and QM who attend. However, I think it's helpful for the APLs to attend occasionally to see how decisions are made and prepare them to become PLs in the future

I never bought into the corner clipping scene. Our scouts saw it as a badge of honor to have corners missing... We just take the card and require that they go without for a couple of events, and then re-earn the privilege. This seems to get the message across, and we rarely have repeat offenders

On 1/28/2018 at 4:22 PM, Back Pack said:

With which groups. There are many groups that offer wfa and I have taken it twice which was taught two very different ways. I know bsa works with ecsi but their course is different from the Red Cross which is different from nols. 

I just completed the Red Cross version of WFA and found it to be more of a First Aid refresher with an introduction to triage, and very theoretical. I was hoping for a more in-depth experience showing how to adapt to situations where you may not have all the resources you'd like, and ways to improvise. Additionally, our instructors kept skipping over certain skills shown in the handouts saying that Red Cross no longer required them, which was confusing and occasionally contradictory.

So, my question is which flavor of WFA has provided the best overall experience?

4 hours ago, JoeBob said:

The easiest way to avoid OA election drama is to not have OA elections.

From a Scoutmaster's point of view, renaming free council labor as an 'Honor Camping Society' doesn't justify potentially driving away quiet scouts who have been active enough to be eligible.  There is no upside for the troop.

Ini-To. 1969

From this Scoutmaster's point of view, it's a shame that your OA experience has been so negative. The scouts in our troop who are active in the OA are by far our strongest leaders, and bring fresh new ideas to continually develop our program, which leads to better scout retention (and continued interest in the OA).

Done properly, the OA is far more than free council labor...

Scoutmaster approval is required to be placed on the ballot, but the Guide to Unit Elections does not provide for alternate election procedures. I recommend following the advice in the following link https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/30/keep-oa-elections-popularity-contest/

Just now, ItsBrian said:

What does that mean?

I take it to mean an event like summer camp, where you spend 2 days at camp at the beginning of the week, go home for a couple of days and then return for another couple of days. So, you've spent over 72 hrs at the event, but over two or more visits.

"Effective June 1, 2018, adults accompanying a Scouting unit who are present at the activity for 72 total hours or more must be registered as a leader, including completion of a criminal background check and Youth Protection Training. The 72 hours need not be consecutive."

https://scoutingwire.org/updated-youth-protection-training-now-available/?utm_source=scoutingwire&utm_campaign=SWVolunteer3142018&utm_medium=email&utm_content=A

Our council gives out annual "God Send" awards to recipients nominated by each unit. It's a great way to publicly recognize key individuals within the units who may not have an impact at the district or council level, but are nonetheless invaluable to those they serve.

Before launching a top-down, District-sponsored training program, I'd meet with current and past Webmasters (and any other youth leaders) to hear their experiences, and then involve them in the development of training materials - they are our clients, they need to be heard.