Rock Doc

Cutting corners from Totin' Chip or Whittling Chip for infractions 

Thanks TAHAWK. What was your impression of the level of comprehension of your students given only 60 minutes of instruction/awareness? Seems that the majority of the IOLS skills are required long before troop level activities - fire, cooking, sanitation, knots, navigation, first aid, etc. I'd really like to see application and development (not awareness) of these skills taught to troop and crew leaders. Think of it as the G and E of the EDGE method.

 

Fortunately, we have a strong backpacking culture in our troop, and train from within, but new troops starting out must struggle without these types of resources. So, just curious how others handle this issue.

Personally, I'd like to see Den Leaders take BALOO in the Tiger/Wolf years, IOLS in the Bear/Webelo years, and then develop a new course for SMs/Senior Scouts/Venturers focused on backcountry camping, including intro to canoe camping, backpacking, etc.

It seems that courses don't always fill up, so "exceptions" are made...

Just learned that our council's Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills (IOLS) course (required for Webelo Den Leaders and Scoutmasters) has been significantly watered down due to changes in National's policy. I've always felt that the old IOLS course didn't go far enough, and that a separate backpacking-specific course was necessary to adequately prepare SM/ASMs. Is this occurring elsewhere, and if so, how are your Councils training scouters for anything beyond car camping, or is it all handled at the unit level?

Powderhorn  is suppose to be a pin now.

That would be helpful, because I'm not a fan of anything hanging (not stitched) from a uniform. Far too easy to lose.

A lot of that can and should be done in this situation depends on the skills of the leadership, both youth and adult.

 

I have "taken back" disruptive boys and had no problems.   Disruptive scouts who quit are still notified of any and all troop/patrol activities until their registration runs out and they don't recharter.

 

I tend to think outside the box when dealing with such situations and when the boy can't second guess and figure you out, they are at a disadvantage.  Peer pressure along with adult guidance goes a long way to make up for poor parenting at home.  The discipline and boundaries provided by Scouting is usually what these boys need more than getting punished, kicked out or told they can't return.  How does one work that out in light of the Scout Law?  We can't all be dealt 100% well adjusted, politie scouts all the time.  Some of the boys are going to be Tom Slade.

You are correct in saying that we should be Loyal, Courteous, Kind, Cheerful and Friendly to this scout, and we have, but there are limits to our patience. And we now feel that making continued accommodations to the potential detriment of the 30+ other scouts who are not causing problems is simply unacceptable. We'll work with the DE to find him a new troop (there are plenty to chose from in our area) if he wishes to continue in the program.

 

Again, thanks for all the feedback.

I wish NYLT spent more time on "Talking to Adults."  It's good material, but given the problems role-playing would be helpful. ("But things are not as smooth as when I did all the planning.")

The default response for a NYLT-trained SPL could be a courteous, "With all due respect sir, have you considered Wood Badge training?" (seems like there should be a T-shirt  )  Levity aside, you're probably correct in suggesting at least an awareness of potential issues when working with Scouters, especially the old guard who may be entrenched and unwilling to relinquish control.

 

Personally, I enjoy the ebb and flow as each newly-elected PLC takes the reins and charges off in a new direction, to prove that they know best. Sometimes they do, sometimes not, but the journey is invariably enlightening and mostly fun.

Question - how do the other adult volunteers feel about his rejoining?  How do your senior-level Scouts feel about it?  This shouldn't be a decision you make on your own.  You have other adult leaders that you can get advice from, and you should make an effort to talk to a select few senior-level Scouts (SPL, "Leadership Corps" (I really wish the BSA would bring that back) for their advice as well (I've seen Troops start to tear apart when a Scoutmaster or Committee Chair allowed a disruptive Scout back in to the unit without discussing it with the boys or other adult leaders (When your SPL hands in his resignation the night the former Scout comes back and tells you he is going to find another unit, and half the boys walk out with him, you'll know you just made a huge error).

 

Talking to the other SM is a good idea - talking to the DE?  I wouldn't bother - his job is numbers - they don't want to see anyone leave Scouting, and they are good at talking people in to taking in problem scouts when those folks are hesitant to say no.  You're all volunteers, if you don't feel you want to deal with this lad, then just tell him no - but remember, you don't have to take that task on yourself - you aren't telling him no, the unit is telling him no - and that's how you put it to the lad and his parent(s) - the Troop made a decision and the answer is no.

The adult Scouters and senior scouts are all in agreement that we would rather not let him rejoin. There's just been no precedent in our unit for such measures.  You're correct about the DE, as his sole purpose it seems is to keep the numbers up and create new units.

Thanks everyone! You're all saying what I believe to be true, but have struggled with simply saying "No". 

I agree that it is a long and hard road to get to a strong boy-led troop.  Our troop when I joined was boy led... well it was sort of boy led for the weekly meetings.  The outdoor program wasn't.  Being the new ASM on the block didn't keep me from objecting when the Troop committee planned the first couple of months of the outdoor program.  The next week, the new SM (who just took over), pulled me aside and said he agreed with me.  Since then, we've worked together to push the troop to being strongly boy-led.

 

The PLC now decides on the outings.  The adults used pack the gear in their cars.  First the scouts did it under the leadership of the SPL and now it is being done by patrol under the leadership of the PL and PQM.  I would do research regarding places to go and thing to do as part of the outdoor program (e.g. finding out where we could go whitewater rafting, finding trails where we could go backpacking) -- the boys are now starting to do that.  The adults handled the cooking for the Troop on the campouts.  We now do patrol based coooking with me advising the scouts who are doing the cooking via e-mail.  The advising role is going to be moved to the more senior scouts.  On outings, the adults told the scouts what to do.  Now, we camp 300 feet away and the boys are in charge.  At the last Court of Honor, the SM had the SPL run the program... not the adults.  

 

At our weekly meetings, the boys have always run things.  We break out into patrols and each patrol runs the troop portion of the meeting.  It is controlled chaos with the adults standing on the side of the room watching.  We don't do merit badges at meetings.  The boys teach the skills they want to using activities they come up with.

 

The key is the commitment to boy-led.  Those in charge need to be committed and those the adult leaders and the parents of the kids that join the troop need to be sold on it.  If you sell it to the adult leaders and the parents, they boys are easy.  The one thing we hear about the boys who join our troop is how much they like the fact that the meeting they attended was boy led.

 

It is a journey of taking many small steps forward.

This sounds very similar to how our troop functions today. As you said, it's a long journey of many small steps. But key to this journey for us was National Youth Leadership Training for senior scouts serving as PLs and SPLs. This training gives the SPL the extra boost and confidence to lead, assuming the adults keep their distance.

How long has it been since he left the troop?

How serious was his misbehavior in the first place? Did he pose a threat to the safety of others? 《He left 18 months ago. No physical threat, but a foul-mouthed bully, with a habit of stealing》

Has anyone spoken to see if he recognizes the error of his previous ways, and has changed his behavior accordingly? 《He was dismissed from NYLT this summer》

How was his behavior in the other troop, and why does he want to leave them? 《Can't speak to his behavior, but he wants to return because our troop is more active》

I guess all of these questions (and maybe others) are part of a larger question: how much likelihood is there that if this Scout returns, he will be a productive and well-behaved member of the troop?

《It's unlikely that his behavior has changed much. I'm just not aware of troops saying "no" to youth wishing to join. 》

Until recently we had a very disruptive Scout in the troop and tried to coach him to change his behavior using Scoutmaster conferences, Boards of Review, and parent meetings. However, the root of his behavior seemed due to lack of parental discipline (he could do no wrong in their eyes), and no amount of counseling improved the situation. Prior to us asking him to leave, he joined another local troop. But now he wants to return. So, given our history I'm reluctant to start over again. Anyone experienced something similar?