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When I sit at the Troop reviews, I always suggest they type just because as prep for later life when typed will be required and it just comes across as more prepared and professional.  But, nope, not required.  I just had a kid whose family didn't have a working computer so...(I did offer him one of the old ones lying about my house)  and the Eagle Workbook PDF is one of the worst fillable documents I have ever worked with (when I was helping my own son do his) so I wouldn't blame any one who said "forget this, I am going to hand write"

I agree w/all the perspectives offered.  I would also offer this is eligibility to stand for election, not membership to OA itself so I might be inclined to lean towards putting them on the ballot--if these are the 2 days they need to make 20 their peers will know, or their overall participation w/the troop, and will make the appropriate assessment on their worthiness. 

I absolutely believe in standards and not reading more/less into requirements or adding/subtracting as well but in  my humble opinion (and as an ASM and advancement chair) I feel sometimes (and absolutely NOT saying this is what is happening here) we adults act as if we are awarding the MoH and I tried to come down on the side of what is most beneficial to the scout.  Again, not to lower standards or make things easier than they are supposed to but I know how motivating various honors and.or recognitions can be (and 25 years in the military adds to this opinion) and I tend to go more not less.  but just an opinion from an anonymous guy on the internet.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

The Cub Scout pack that feeds the troop does not do a very good job preparing Webelos to become Boy Scouts, and we have a 50% attrition rate in 6 months. The neckers and woggles are custom made, and about $20/set. One year we gave out 9 of them at the Cross Over, and 5 of those Scouts either didn't show up after Cross Over, or quit within 6 months not even earning Scout Rank. They had 4 Scouts "join" the troop last month. I know for a fact 2 didn't show up to their first meeting because they were visiting other troops that night and the next. I am really worried about them.

We had the same problem/issue/expense.  Now we hand out Troop numbers at the Xover and when they make Scout w/ the Troop they get their necker and slide.  A little less grand of a welcome but the costs of no shows was unsustainable as we were getting 15 or so Xovers a year and probably only netting 8 or so after a few months.

1 hour ago, CodyMiller351 said:

The only reason I gave in the his “big tent” demand is that there wasn’t much room to put multiple other leader tents since the big one would take up most of the plot space (it was a state park campsite so there is not much tent room).  I didn’t really allow him to give me crap.  I stood my ground and told him what I needed to tell him.  

alrighty then.  my apologies.  I must have read your post wrong or more into it than was there. 

2 hours ago, CodyMiller351 said:

  We begin setting up camp and he states that all of the leaders should stay in one big tent instead of our personal tents.  I explain to him that we only stay in one big tent during our beach trip which was last month.  This really isn't an issue but he wouldn't budge.  Finally I gave in and set up the big tent. 

You lost me here.  The other stuff (well except for the phone) is, I guess possibly open for discussion on the best way to deal with the boys.  anyway until he is removed his opinion could be considered.  But I am a grown up.  No one is going to tell me where to tent, let alone that I must tent with another adult.  Certainly ig f that isn't the previously established policy/procedure (which I could then opt out of an event if I do not wish to comply).  I would have told him to stuff it right then and there, or enjoy his big tent all by his lonesome.

Actually you lost me at the "he gave me crap..."  We are all volunteers here, trying to do our best.  I am not taking any crap off another volunteer.  good natured ribbing sure or useful. constructive criticism sure--I am not perfect and can learn plenty from more experienced folks.  But genuine crap umm nope.  Again, I am a grown up and unless we are in some official capacity where I sort of have to take it (and since retiring from the military I can't imagine that scenario anymore) I am not going to suffer fools who think they are in charge very well.

I would have had zero problems asking him to kill the phone or go to his car if he has to watch.  Our troop has a zero electronic policy at scout events (other than calling home if needed).  The grown ups try real hard to set the example on that.  The language would be a no brainer to me.  Again no problem going to the mattresses straight away on that. 

But if not losing him (and his boy) outweighs the other stuff then I think you are hosed.  You have surrendered the leverage and are stuck IMO.

I think it is about scholarships.  The irony is except for the revenue sports like men's FB and BB there are very few full scholly's available.  Except for a few truly exceptional folks in the non rev you might be looking at a partial. And the coach cares not a lick about your academics beyond staying eligible.  Many friends whoi had kids play a D1 sport and it was a like a job. they hated the sport by the time they finished or at best saw it as a means to an end.  The joy was long gone.  My oldest was a pretty good softball player but no way she could get an athletic scholarship.  However her ACT brought in plenty of scholarships.  Academics usually is the best (and easiest to control) in getting help paying.

Scouts is our Alamo.  We will dump any/all other activities before we let that go.  It is the only activity, or one of the few, where your participation isn't linked to performance.  You are allowed to fail.  Strike out 3 times--grab the pine.  Dump your kayak 3 times--when you are done laughing w/ your buds get back in and try again.  My kid loves soccer/baseball but I have never seen him smile like he did at summer camp out on the lake w/ his buds.  And scouts, when done right, is one of the few activities where the adults sit over there and let the boys do their thing, work out their disputes, enjoy the moment, and not get "helped" until they ask.  No refs, no "coaches" projecting their hopes/dreams/past failures on the kids hoping a big league GM sees their masterful coaching and offers them a gig w/ the big club.  And any kid--rich or poor--can participate.  In fact, we will help equip a poor kid if need be, with good stuff.  Try getting anyone on a travel team to let a teammate use this years $350 carbon fiber bat.

Parent first.  do what is necessary to protect your kid.  And based on what I have read this PLC/SPL is cabal of future kavanaughs.  You may be the SM but I wouldn't take that as a suicide pact for your family.  I wouldn't waste a lot of time worrying about how best to make sure these boys learn and grow--that can be their parent's (and someday probably state appointed counselors) job.   And if they care the CC/DE/COR.  There is a rot if the SPL would do this and no one on the PLC would stop it and, in  fact, just laughed. Not going to be surprised when the parents of these little angels claim 'wasn't my kid' or 'he would never do this' or figure how to blame your son.  In my experience misifts like this are usually enabled at home.   IMO this troop is toast.

Even if this is resolved in the most favorable manner to you and your son, are you ever going to trust these boys--alone w/ your son.  And would you if it isn't resolved in a favorable manner.  I am all for teaching and learning and helping boys become good men but I learned some hard lessons as a commander--there is a difference between a mistake and a crime.  This may or may not be a crime but it sure isn't a mistake.  If it were my son, we would be gone and I would be looking for maximum accountability (in any and all appropriate forums)  for the future defendants.

we were in the council that last merged w/ gslac (lewis and clark).  at the troop level I would be hard pressed to say there is a discernible impact beyond a changing council strips--especially for the boys.   I think any "conflict" has been at the adult scouter level and in that respect gslac is the daddy rabbit and they run the show--on the other hand a fair amount of dead weight imo was cleared out of the l&c side of the river.  and we now have better access to all of the programs/resources on the mo side.  there has not been a wholesale closing of camps.  i think one was tferred to the Y or some other non profit but that was in motion prior and made sense from an facility mx/upgrade & use perspective.  Even the OA hand wringing about shutting down our lodge has been staved off for the foreseeable future.

not saying this new merger is a good idea or will turn out same, but I reckon unless you are a wheel in the adult scouter system it will be fairly transparent.

ok it wasnt just me.  I saw and thought same things.  to be expected, of course.  looking forward to the Boys now welcome in Boy Scouting issue ha ha ha

didn't think you were flip at all and I have seen and recognize the power and utility of redemption, forgiveness, and second chances.  MattR has raised some very good points as well.  and I appreciate your perspective as well.  It really gets down to if one thinks a person has the will and capacity to change/reform and/or the faith the PTB will ensure corrections will be made--and if you have the patience to let that play out--hard to do when it's your kid for sure.  BL:  hope for the best outcomes but have a plan for the worst ones.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

 

Everyone needs a chance to prove they learned from bad choices.

 

not necessarily.  depends on the bad choice.  and you don't get to learn on my kid.  I really don't feel the need to provide another opportunity for someone to screw up with my kid.   and I really don't want that to happen to others either

1 hour ago, bearess said:

I think all of that is the right thing to do/say— but it’s challenging.  The guy has a son my son’s age, also in the Troop.  So removing him as an ASM wouldn’t necessarily achieve the goal of removing him from Scouts—he’d still come to everything with his son.  Me going to everything isn’t possible- I don’t have the vacation time to go to camp and a weeklong summer trip (which they do every year).  I’m a Den Leader for my younger son, and those meetings overlap with the Troop meetings.

Here’s the trouble— my son likes Scouts and likes his Troop.  Any other Troop would be 15-20 minute drive, different school district, etc.  Removing him from the Troop seems like such a bad option— but letting him stay is no good either!  I do appreciate that the rest of the leadership talked to him, and I think the message was “If it happens again, you will have to leave”- but I do think they are limited in what they can do, as his son is a Scout.

 

I wasn't clear--he doesn't have to leave the troop, as you said his kid is in there, but he does need to leave his position.   He needn't have any interaction with any boy other than his son.   He needn't wear a uni again IMO.  But as hard as it would be, if he pulls this again and the Troop doesn't follow thru (and quite frankly, he shouldn't be in a position to do this again so I think you have a problem already)  and you can't be there all the time to protect your kid (I get it--I have a job and 2 other kids and my own life) then you have to consider all of your options if the troop has made their choice.

I wouldn't be very patient on this.  I would speak directly w/ the SM and/or CC, possibly the CO rep if the CO is involved in the Troop (some are/some aren't).  The yelling and screaming (coupled w/prior behavior) has no place and this "asm" no longer needs to have a role or presence at Troop activities IMO (again assuming the facts as presented in the thread are 100% correct and no reason to think otherwise).

I would ensure I was present at any activity where my son and this guy were present.  I would strongly consider changing units if the Troop isn't going to remove this person.

That is my official how to handle it scoutlike.  Honestly, if it were my kid, this ASM and I would have a talk and that would be the last tiime he gets w/ 100 yards of my son let alone speak with him again.

IMO he is not sloooooow at all.  I am sure there are some faster, but I have boys who have been in the troop a couple years + who are still Scout or TF.  They are happy and coming to events.  all good.

he is doing fine.  I am an advancement chair and I see this quite a bit.  It is a big adjustment, IMO, from Cubs where the parents/leaders make sure everything is signed off and the program runs on basically a syllabus to boy scouts where the boy needs to drive the accomplishment, and bring his book around (which means having the book, knowing what needs to get signed, and then getting it signed)  it can take a year or so before they find their rhythm on that.  Then it can go like gangbusters.  Sometimes it takes motivation, like seeing all the cool stuff that only 1C and above are eligible for, or a couple buddies make rank.  or they just enjoy the activities and fellowship and that is enough.  as someone already said they all move at their own pace and define their own journey.

now that doesn't mean every now and again you can't talk to him and ask how is it going, and, if he is interested talk about getting stuff signed off (for ex, my son did want to advance but sometimes needed a gentle reminder about what he did on the campout or who he might see at a meeting to get stuff signed--but arms, or farther, length direction--more about helping him learn the procedures then specifically directing actions)

ok I have read this whole thing, really surprised at how fired up uninvolved, anonymous folks can get about stuff.

If I were the OP....kid made eagle.  he is entitled/deserves an ECOH.  As a parent I absolutely see wanting to get that for him.  So much so, I would see to it myself (which is how our Troop does it anyway).  It is obvious there is some issue driving the cmte to not put the event on.  I doubt you will ever get the answers you are looking for.  I also doubt you will ever get them to do as you wish and/or put on the ceremony. And further, why would you want to force folks to do something you want to go well against their will.  do you really think they would, under duress and quite resentful, deliver the special ceremony your son deserves?   I would swallow my anger and move on.  Invite the Troop.  who wants to come will come. 

I am not saying you are wrong for being angry, or wanting an explanation, etc.  I am not even saying there are 2 sides. I will accept your version as the whole/complete unfiltered truth.   it doesn't matter.  You are not going to get what you want and I just can't see it is worth the high BP to get it.  Even if you were to "prevail," whatever that would mean, I think it would be a hollow victory.  A crap ceremony by folks who still would find your son unworthy.  who need/wants that.  Forget the Troop and give your son the ceremony you think he deserves. 

Life is just to doggone short and this is supposed to be fun/enjoyable.  maybe I have mellowed, and there probably was a time when I would have relished going to the mattresses over something like this but in the end it is just a waste of time and detracts from what actually matters here.

Our troop does Scout BoRs.  We know and acknowledge it is not a requirement.  If any Scout or Parent points that out and says they will not we would not argue the point or hold a grudge.  As adv chair I do not hide the fact it is not rqd and tell parents as such.  We do it to give the boys additional opportunities to practice  a) sched/attending the BoR, coming in full uni w/ their book, speaking w/ the panel and an opportunity to provide the troop feedback on their journey to that point--especially since these are our newest scouts.  It also gets our adults a chance to meet our new scouts and it is great way for me to increase my pool of adults and train parents on BoRs.  And I explain that to all my new parents, again pointing out while what we are doing is additional/optional--it is not required and their kid is a scout after the SM conf.  We have not held up any kid because we couldn't/wouldnt get a scout bor done.

Our CO (a church) has a piece of property on the edge of town they are holding to someday relocate.  We meet at the church.  once a year we have a campout at the property primarily for the first years to get them acclimated to the patrol method, work on basics, catch up the boys who couldn't get to camp, allow some boys who cant make the whole weekend get at least one night in as they work around school/sports conflicts.  aone time we made the weekend a focus on cooking and we set up all different ways of cooking inthe field and basically had different food/meals going non stop.  anyway, it provides a good "starter" camp environment.  we don't go there often, most the time we are hitting the road to camp but staying local does provide some opportunities.  we have found for some of the new boys (and their parents) the idea of them being close by w/ the ability to go home quickly if things go south gives all concerned a comfort level they need to get used to the whole camping thing.  rarely does anyone actually avail themselves of going home/picking up their kids early.  The new boys realize next time they want to go away to camp and the parent realize their kids will surviv a couple nights in a tent w/o them.  It's a nice start in the shallow end sort of deal.

sounds like my son/  14 yr old Life, busy with Band/soccer/baseball.  Troop has a lot of first years and second years who might as well be first years.  we focus on what he likes.  he goes on campouts, cool day activities, jambo, phi8lmont,nylt but is sort of intermittent at meetings.  sort of taking a breather during band/soccer season  and then hopefully come back recharged/motivated in the new year when he has a little more time.  when he goes to meetings he focuses on what he likes--teaching a single or pair of newbies scout skills to help them advance.  it is about balance as well as letting him feel he is in control of his time and fate.  and we try and help him prioritize his different events so he doesn't feel like he is letting anybody down and doesnt feel the weight of the world for all the decisions.

SSF you make good points and obviously every situation is different.  For me, I don't want to discourage parental involvement--it is in fact necessary and we take every opportunity that comes to take really involved parents and get them to sign up as leaders or committee members.  I am only talking about the parents who try and steamroll thru the procedures (not that we are slaves to a checklist) that the rest of the boys follow or parents who hand carry the blue cards or scout books thru the signature process on behalf of their son for example.  Any parent who wants to set up an event is fine by me.  But I kind of gotta feel like the kid is actually doing the stuff and the kid is driving the train (factoring in we all, me included, push or have pushed our kids a little bit)

I don't know of, or we have been lucky to not have the extreme examples but every year we have several orientation meetings for the incoming parents where we clearly spell out how the troop works conducted by the various committee chairs and scoutmasters. we clearly spell out how advancement/scheduling/campouts/meetings/etc are conducted and what we expect of our parents as well as how they can contribute and participate.  and in the end, the current adult leadership is very steadfast in how we want the troop (boy led/patrol method) to be.  We pushback hard against parents who can't seem to get it.  i.e. I am advancement chair and I just ignore or slow roll the couple of hyper aggressive parents when it comes to getting their kid signed off or blue cards completed.  I also know I have full support of CC and SM in that.  eventually they realize the only way their kid is getting something signed is if he actually did it and goes thru the proper procedure.  or they leave the troop.

Now as I have gotten older and/or dealt with more and more actually serious issues in my career my tolerance for silly crap has decreased, particularly from other adults and their kids.  I really have zero problem telling another adult they are wrong, they are not going to get their way, they don't rate an exception or extraordinary effort from meor any other adult troop leader. 

Now there is very little I will not do or an effort I will not make for a boy who is polite/respectful and is doing their best, particularly to overcome circumstances outside of their control or obstacles not of their making--regardless of what kind of doofus their parents may be.

I taught a badge at the last couple Council organized and executed U of Scouting events.  I always ask the boys (usually a class of around 20) before we start why are they there.  Some have a genuine interest in the topic.  Some are chasing a MB that isnt offered a lot or that they don't have.  some signed up late and this was all that was left.  and finally we get the my parent signed me up and sometimes that comes with the additional I don't want to be here.

I just run my badge and those that want to learn an earn do it enthusiastically.  Others just do it and then others just sit there and do nothing.  If you do the stuff I sign the card.  If not, good day to you.  I had one of those signed up their kid parents call me about completing the partial and what did she need to do to get the MB completed.  I told her I told her son what he needed to do and how to get ahold of me if he cared.  never heard from her again.

last time the ratio of kids who truly wanted to be there vs those who ended up there was just too far out of whack for me to sign up again.

That's what I'd like to do, and given the fact that nobody has even tried to convince me that the rules say otherwise, and my CC will go with my recommendation, that is what is going to happen.  As for your comment about it being a Bronze Palm and not the Medal of Honor:  It is a Bronze Palm, but it is not my Bronze Palm, it is the BSA's, and they get to decide who receives it.

My point was not that the award is meaningless, or that one just go to the Scout shop buy one and hand it out but that all the discussion and hand wringing seems a little silly to me.  Interpret the guidance from National, discuss among Troop leadership, and press on.  If the boy, in your Troop's opinion met the criteria as they understand it in good faith then that ought to be enough.  I have seen actual combat decorations awarded (deservedly) with less scrutiny than some Boy Scout awards receive and I guess I find it funny.

we are not awarding the Medal of Honor for pete's sake.  It's a bronze palm.  let the boy have it.

He gets a call mixed up with a face to face discussion, you guys become unglued.

 

Clinton's "few emails" turns out to be thousands (big time violations by the way) you guys are silent. Go figure.

not unglued.  you seem a bit worked up.  I don't recall any info that any of HRC's emails involved the BSA or her having any involvement at all with BSA so her honesty or lack thereof isn't particularly relevant to DT's jambo speech .  Don't see how her lies excuses/justifies his.