BrentAllen

GW's answer is incorrect. Unless otherwise specified, time counted towards an award cannot be counted towards another, even in another program. For example, the Tiger Leader knot states "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." There is no Cub Scouter key, so this language applies across all programs.

Lisa, Your last post really sums up Wood Badge for me, on every level; I couldn't have said it better! Excellent post! Happy Thanksgiving!

Lisa, Yes, each staff should have one Professional Scouter included. I think the role the Pro plays is up to the CD - they can be just an advisor, or actually present one of the lessons. There should also be a previous CD on staff as the Course Advisor. I understand it is considered good manners for the CD to go to the Course Advisor at least once for advice, such as, should the bread for lunch be wheat or white? :-)

"The Course of instruction will be based on SCOUTING FOR BOYS, and the Chief Scout's book "AIDS TO SCOUTMASTERSHIP," and will include lectures and practical work in campcraft, nature study, general scouting, organization and methods of running patrols and troops." FIRST SCOUTMASTERS TRAINING COURSE AT GILWELL PARK Looks to me like they had lectures on several subjects. They did only have one day of rain, so maybe they weren't under tarps.

"Sitting on a bench under a tarp isn't quite what BP meant." Isn't what B-P meant for the boys, or meant for WB training? The very first course took place at Gilwell Park, which wasn't exactly out in the wild. Given B-P's familiarity with military training, I imagine his "classroom" wasn't much different than the one we use today. The course included a series of lectures, from B-P and other guests. They were either sitting under a tarp or out in the open, and given London weather, my guess is they were under a tarp.

GW, Again, you make my point. The outdoors is the classroom, not the lesson. That is how current Wood Badge is taught - in the outdoor classroom. The SM should go through IOLS training, where he would learn those skills. Is that what an advanced training course should do - teach someone how to light a fire and sharpen a knife - skills that are very basic and taught in another course? I personally don't think so.

Gonzo, You are helping me make my point. My dad, who took the course in 1975, would say "What, you didn't have to dig that huge latrine? You used porta-potties?!?! Digging that latrine was a huge team-building excercise! What have they done to my Wood Badge Course??" The course has been evolving since in began. I would argue the new course is more relevant, and helps better prepare Scouters to deliver the program. Sure, we don't have as much pioneering or camping skills. If any of you think your mission is to teach boys how to camp, you are missing the whole point of the program. There isn't a word in the Mission Statement or Aims about camping or the outdoors. Camping and outdoors is only one of the Methods. The other parts of the new course deal with the other Methods. In my view, the course has changed from "How to be a Scoutmaster" to "How to be a Scouter." Let's face it, there are lots more Scouters out there than there are Scoutmasters, and there are lots more positions in running a unit than just the SM.

Lisa, The show time of the movie differs between the week-long and two-weekend course. On the two-weekend, it is shown Sunday afternoon at 2:30 pm (Day 3). In the week-long course, it is scheduled to be started at 7:00 pm. I hope the Cub Leaders didn't see our B & G as a mockery - it certainly wasn't meant to be. We had a very nice lunch and a few words of encouragement for the new Scouts. The big thing about the B & G was when the participants crossed over, that was when they found out which Patrol they were in (and critter). Yes, Gonzo, there is one movie (October Sky), shown outdoors under the tarps. Yes, it is a different course. We don't spend half a day digging a latrine large enough to handle a battalion - should we bring that element back to the program? How about trenching around your tent, with a trench big enough to divert the Mississippi? Is that practical or relevent in today's world? Camping has changed for the 21st Century. How many times has your Troop actually cooked over open fires, as opposed to using camp stoves or backpacking stoves? Sure, it is a skill to learn, but how often are your Scouts going to use it? LNT guidelines recommend the stoves. The rest of the material you want is in the course, and probably more of some of it. The course is all outdoors (except for the meals the first couple of days), the patrol method is utilized with the SM and SPL running the show. Lots of leadership and management training, and plenty of different leadership excercises. Several Patrol projects, as well. As I have mentioned before, the SM for the course I just staffed has been on 13 different staff teams, going back to 1975. He was on staff when my dad took the course that year. He has seen the old course and the new course (served on several 21st Century courses). I take his word for it when he says one isn't better than the other, they are just different. And don't think he is just toeing the corporate line - he is a bit of a maverick in the council. He never takes his Troop to one of our Council Summer Camps - he prefers to go to a camp over in Alabama. He calls it as he sees it, and I trust his judgement.

Well, they do have a Venture Patrol Leader, who leads the Venture Patrol. It is much easier to say a boy is a Venture Scout than to say he is a Boy Scout who is in a Venture Patrol. As you said, we have Varsity Scouts, so why not Venture Scouts? None of the Troops in my area use the concept, so I don't have to worry about it. :-)

GW, My mistake - that should have been Venturers. That word just doesn't seem right, for some reason. To answer your question, a Venture Scout is a member of a Venture Patrol, which, as you know, is different from Venturing.

Some reasons why anyone considering attending Wood Badge should ignore Kudu's opinions: 1. Kudu never has liked Wood Badge. He took the old course and was disappointed: "I went to Wood Badge hoping for an in-depth "why" discussion of the so-called "Eight Methods" (why not the original six?) and the so-called "Three Aims" (why not the original one?) but the Eight Methods were only mentioned in passing." Even though he has never attended the new course or seen the syllabus, he offers his negative opinions as if he were an expert. 2. Kudu doesn't care much for the BSA, and if he could join a Baden-Powell Scout group, he would. 3. Kudu disagrees with the BSA Patrol Method of allowing the boys to elect their own leaders. 4. Kudu thinks the Senior Patrol Leader position has absolutely no value. 5. Kudu bases his decision on who is a good Scouter and who isn't on an inane obsession over who said "Scouting is a game with a purpose." This has to be one of the silliest points I have ever seen, and unfortunately, Kudu has to bring it up just about every other post. Do we not all agree that Scouting is a game with a purpose? Did B-P not state that Scouting was a game? Does anyone think B-P would have a problem with anyone attributing the quote to him, that he would disagree with the idea? Since Bill Hillcourt was presumably the author, could it be possible that he actually heard the phrase from B-P?? BTW, Kudu's hero, Bill Hillcourt was a serious Wood Badger, even serving as a Course Director. Hmmmm....

For 2008, cost in our council is $200 for the weekend course, $235 for the weeklong course. Not bad for 6 days of training. Vicki, TG is the most rewarding position on staff! You get to really know and work with those participants in your patrol, whereas the rest of the staff gets to know them a little. I get to be a TG again this summer, in August as well. Gets a little hot down here that time of year, but it is manageable. As a TG, you really end up being on two teams - the full staff, and the TG team. The TG's on our staff really became pretty close. I've seen several of them at different events since the course, and we pick up just like we left off, as if the course ended yesterday. It has been more fun than I thought it would be, from start to finish! I hope you have a great experience!

Most of the suggestions here have already been addressed. There was a pretty significant revision in 2005, I think, and it either addressed these issues, or some councils just aren't incorporating them. I just received the syllabus for the 2008 course. I'll try to see if there are any significant changes over 2007. The first day starts off with everyone as Cubs, and continues through lunch, with a Blue & Gold Banquet, and crossover. This is done for a couple of reasons - to give those leaders who never spent a day in Cubs an idea of the program, and to make the Cub leaders feel more welcome in the course. Since most of the rest of the program is built around Boy Scouts, I don't think this is too much to ask. We had nearly a dozen Venture Scouts come in and set up a "What'wrong with this campsite?" game, and they lead the participants on the hike to their overnighter. Participants had plenty of time to talk with them and ask questions. The staff became Venturers on day 5, I believe. For the summer course, our participants camped in the Summer Camp staff tents for the first weekend, and we ate in the mess hall. For the second weekend, participants camped in their patrol sites in their own tents, and cooked their own meals. They back-packed to another part of camp for the overnighter. The program serves several purposes, just as does Scouting. Ea, I can tell you the Game of Life works sometimes, and others, it doesn't. It didn't for the course I attended back in 2004, but it worked beautifully this summer. Too many variables to figure out why. When it works, the message is extremely powerful, so I would vote enthusiastically to leave it in. We have a previous CD who is very talented at running the game, so nearly every CD asks him to come in and run it. The 360 worked very well for me. Can't speak for others. The conservation projects I've been involved with have been huge successes, on several levels. One, we did make an impact on the area. Second, the participants were very proud of the work they did, and were impressed with how much could be accomplished in such a short amount of time. Many are skeptical going in, but leave with a real lesson about what can be accomplished with a little planning and organization. The movie is important - if the debrief is handled correctly. There are so many examples of team development, leadership styles, mission & vision, and coaching vs. mentoring. If the participants are allowed to "discover" these through group discussion in the debrief, it really clicks the light bulb on for many of them. Day One seems to last forever. The next five seem to go by in a flash!

For those keeping track of the reasons to attend Wood Badge, this is reason #9: Support Wood Badge or suffer personal attacks. If politely pointing out your sore lack of knowledge about a subject you speak so often of is a personal attack, so be it. Well now, the obvious question is: "If the participants belong to Wood Badge Cub Scout Dens, why isn't the director known as the Wood Badge Cubmaster?" Again, if you knew anything about the course, you would know the CD is always the SM. The first half of the first day is spent as part of the Cub Scout program, and at the Blue & Gold lunch, the participants cross over to Troop 1. Now, if the CD is the SM who is there to welcome the new members of Troop 1, it would be pretty hard for him to also be the CM as well. So, no, the CD is not the CM. Another staff member acts as CM. I haven't seen a course outline... This is painfully obvious. Is anyone else amazed at how Kudu can trash a program he knows so little about? For ten years Wood Badgers have used personal attacks to avoid thinking about what a Scout Uniform should be: An Outdoor Method made of breathable nylon and free of clown colors. Wow! I had no idea us Wood Badgers were in charge of making uniform decisions! What next, we are part of the vast right-wing conspiracy?!?! Please keep it coming - this is getting very entertaining! I was right about the Scout Uniform and I am right about the Patrol Method. Yeah, and did you invent the internet, too? You honestly think you have been the only one calling for a uniform change? You are a true legend in your own mind! As for your Summer Camp Dining Hall beef, you'll have to take that up with the BSA and the Councils. I'm surprised you would lend your time to a group (BSA) which you find so lacking. FYI, at the Summer Camp I attended as a youth, we cooked all of our meals. As for cooking over an open fire, it is rarely done anymore, due to LNT concerns. We are going camping this weekend and we have a complete fire ban (National Forest Service) - not even charcoal. Camp stove cooking is the 21st Century method of camping - by patrols, no less. Welcome to 2007. Just a few more quesitons. Did you complete your ticket? Were you awarded your beads? Do you wear them?

Vicki, Congrats on the staff invitation! When is your course, and what position will you fill? Get ready for a lot of fun! As wonderful as Wood Badge is, staffing is even better! As a participant, I sometimes felt like I was drinking from a fire hose. Going through Course Development, everything is slowed down, and you get to review and discuss each presentation as a team. I think you will start to see a lot more "course connections" that can be easily missed the first time through. Enjoy every minute of it - on day 6, you will wonder how it could all go by so fast!

Kudu, Careful - your lack of Wood Badge course knowledge is showing. The CD is NOT known as the Cubmaster when the participants are grouped as dens. Also, the Patrols do cook their own meals during the second half of the course. Since you are so skilled at the "dodge", I'll be more direct. Have you attended Wood Badge? If so, when and where? Did you stay in cabins, as your Troop does, or did you actually camp in tents? FYI - IOLS is taught at the District level in our council, and it most certainly follows the Patrol Method. Let's see, your comments on Dinizulu's necklace resolved....nothing. In fact, your quote supports my argument that B-P did take it from Dinizulu's fort: "To have stolen a Zulu ruler's property was thought underhanded and unpleasant, as was the idea of the founder of a worldwide multiracial brotherhood fighting against Africans." Thanks for playing!

What are you constantly accusing Ed of? The school officials already knew BSA policy. That is why they thought it was absurd that we had to move the charter. The didn't agree that the school holding the charter equated to the school practicing discrimination. Again... they saw the Pack as a club, just like chess or Odyssey of the Mind or whatever, they didn't (and still don't) see the charter as representing ownership that resulted in school discrimination. Now, do you understand? Now, do you "gotcha?"

"Now, to get back to why it's important for people to understand the BSA's membership requirements, back when you were chartered by a public school, did you ever tell any school representatives that atheists couldn't join your group?" Sure I did. When I told them we had to move the charter to the PTA, they asked why. When I explained the agreement with the ACLU, they thought it was absurd! What you see as the most important element of your argument (that the CO owns the unit), they see as a technicality. They don't see it as owning the unit - they just see it as giving the Pack permission to meet there and be a part of the school, just like the chess club or any other group. As I said, the members of the Pack think we are still chartered by the school. Enjoy your hollow victory. Just an FYI - our school superintendent is a huge supporter of Scouting. He is even a member of our Council Executive Board - a position he sought out.

Come on, Merlyn, be truthful now. You still cannot point to the court decision where it was decided that schools chartering units is illegal. Don't you think it is important to point out that the BSA just reached an agreement with the ACLU that they would not issue charters out of public schools? And that this agreement only happened a couple of years ago? And when it did, we complied by having our PTA charter the Pack, which just required the PTA President to sign off on the COR, instead of the school principal? Not a single other component of the Pack changed - membership, meeting locations or times - nothing, zilch, nada. I think it speaks volumes that Merlyn has to result to this same old tired argument time after time. How many years have we heard this now? The true irony of this situation is nearly every single member of our Pack THINKS we are still chartered by the school! Nobody tells them that, but since nothing changed when we moved the charter, they think we are chartered by the school. Hey Merlyn - is that against the law?

Volker, You are welcome to your opinion, but the BSA practices legal discrimination, protected under our US Constitution, which I support. Other than packsaddle, I don't know of any other Scouter in my area that supports changing the policy. Most of the Troops are chartered by churches, so the Chartered Organization Reps (the only members who have a vote at Council) are, for the most part, members of churches. And contrary to what you read here, these members are pretty conservative. Don't expect to see either of those policies changed any time soon.

That's a much different definition than around these parts. Man Scouts around here are adult Scouters who never associate with real live Boy Scouts. They are involved at the District and Council level, but rarely, if ever, do anything with boys in a Troop. They take all types of training, but never do anything with it. They search out committees to serve on so they can stay busy, providing plenty of excuses why they can't help out on a camping trip or help some Scouts wanting to earn a Merit Badge. I picture them as the King and Queen in the movie Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang - very much afraid of the kids. Just being involved at District and Council does not make one a Man Scout. In fact, we WANT Troop Scouters involved at District and Council, so that we don't get over-run by Man Scouts!

Our Troop holds an interfaith religious service on Sunday mornings on campouts. Our Council holds an annual Duty to God Encampment at one of our Scout reservations. The short description: "Scouting has a continuing commitment to encourage moral, ethical, and spiritual growth. In the Oath, "Duty to God" reminds everyone that a Scout is reverent. The Boy Scouts of America is a nonsectarian organization advocating a devout belief in deity. Article IX, Section 1, Clause 1 in the Charter and Bylaws states in part, "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no boy can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God." Youth and adult leaders are encouraged to be faithful in their religious duties. The Scout Law teaches, "A Scout is reverent." A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. It is important that Scouts recognize the beliefs of other Scouts and respect those beliefs. Duty to God Encampment is an excellent opportunity to learn about some of the different beliefs shared by others. The Council Religious Relations Committee puts together a weekend of camping at Bert Adams Scout Reservation in Covington for the express purpose of learning more about one's Duty to God. This weekend takes place on an annual basis in the fall and enjoys a large participation by many different faiths." The full registration flyer can be found at: http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/DocDownload.asp?orgkey=1456&id=26622

If you think staffers aren't benefiting from the staffing experience, then you would be incorrect. It was a huge learning and growing experience for me. As probably any staffer will tell you, there is so much material in the course, it is difficult to catch it all. Attending as a staffer, I was able to see every presentation twice - once during course development, where each lesson was practiced and presented and critiqued, and then again during the actual course. Our CD had staffed 12 previous courses, and he will tell you he learned valuable lessons each and every time. So, yes, we pay a staff fee, which is around half the cost of the course fee. It mainly goes to cover food and course materials. It is a drop in the bucket compared to the time commitment. Paying a fee also keeps a staffer "invested" in the course, and much more likely that he will be there for the full course, and not drop. Was it some of the best money and time I have spent in Scouting? Absolutely! Given the opportunity to do it again next summer, I didn't have to think twice about it.

I wouldn't say obessed, but I believe I feel Satan tugging at my sleeve from time to time. I'm beginning to understand your difficulty in understanding the concept of sin. I just find it very interesting that you feel very free to tell everyone what they "should" believe, but yet you are very reluctant to discuss what you actually believe.

pack, Sorry my "simpleminded" question caused you so much distress. I never said the BSA had any issue about whether or not you believed Satan was real or a myth. It was you who stated everyone should know that Lucifer/Satan was a myth - a statement I find pretty incredible, considering somewhere around 70% of the population consider themselves Christian. I am curious, though. You say Jesus was not a myth, but Satan is. We read in the Bible that Jesus was tempted by Satan for 40 days. How do you know or decide which parts of this and other parts of the Bible are true and which are myths? Another simpleminded question, but which is sure to cause much consternation: Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?