Faith

While making the archery and bb gun targets for our own summer camp (my husband is the range master this year), I ran into this same issue. A friend of mine drew 'mad science' themes on some used 'yard ads' (we were hanging mason jar tops from them for them to shoot at.) Not thinking about BSA rules, she drew a mad scientist on the top (not where they shoot but obviously a bb could hit up there.) When my CM saw that, she about crawled under my porch. It was stressed repeatedly at the next meeting, no people, no animals - whatsoever. On anything that involves 'aiming and shooting.' Another guy made a valid point that some of our scouts wouldn't even bother aiming at the jar lids but the scientist himself. So now those boards will be decoration and we made two more with abstract science images. So knowing this (and depending on how your group is), I'd steer clear any animals/humans. I realize humans are 'worse' to use but you really don't want to get it all set up to be told later on nope, re-do.

Welcome! Glad to have you here, hope to see you around.

I put a lot of effort into our den doodle. I designed it to match the totem pole outside the elementary school. I love totem poles. The boys can earn beads for advancement, attendance, uniforming, parental involvement, and good turns.

 

That looks amazing! I wouldn't have the patience, lol. I would looove to get my husband to help with something like that but no one else at our pack has ever brought something like that (if they do have it, it doesn't make it to pack meets.) Are you the only one that gives beads for it or do they earn them at pack meets as well? As far as I know, our pack only gets items at the summer camp for theirs and those items don't go on our regular flag but the camp flag (no idea where that goes after camp.) I have to ask since I read it also, did you get a cub mobile done?

 

I meant to add last night that I saw at our CM's house that her son had a walking stick with a hole drilled through it and all his individual things strung on it (he had pieces of paper and beads.) She said they used to do those at camp but decided to do bookbags instead this year due to hazards with the kids and sticks (kept beating one another I'd imagine, lol.) Maybe that was their own personal totems/doodles. So many different things, not sure if I'll ever figure it out, lol.

Never bothered' date=' not sure what the purpose is. We had a poster of the advancements (ror Bear), with each boy's name, so at the end of the meeting we could mark off what we did for everyone there.[/quote']

 

I also made a poster for our Tigers (other den leader thought of it but never did it.) After making it she informed me there was a pre-made one we could have used, lol. Ah well, I liked ours. I also brought it to all the meetings and each scout marked off what they did each time.

Yup, I'm back with another question I tried using the search on here before posting but with all the trouble I've had in the past few days accessing the forum, I'm taking the short cut and posting about this (I'll continue to search manually just in case this has been addressed too many times before.)

 

For summer camp, I was also asked to design den doodles as well as smaller versions of the den doodles (not sure the correct terminology for these.) The den doodles are laminated 'bookmark' sized pieces of paper with a core value written on them and an accompanying image and tied to a piece of yarn. The smaller version is the same word and image (small square) and a hole punched in it, no yarn. I had never heard of these before now and tonight at our meeting someone said we weren't doing den doodle beads this year but what I made instead. The den doodles would be tied to a den flag made at camp while the smaller versions would be looped on a book bag hook that each scout would get at camp.

 

So I asked a few questions, didn't get much of a response on the significance of these and came home to search it up online. I got so many varying results on what exactly a den doodle is (and how they are 'normally' created/used) so I was wondering is this something every pack has or something extra? I didn't find anything on 'not' having one so I figured I'd research more. I read somewhere I could find out more in one of the many books I got at the scout shop so I'm headed off now to read more. Just curious as to what everyone here uses (or used in the past.)

I was able to send some about a week and a half ago. A few things have 'broken' over the past week or so that were fixed right before it. I believe that was one of the features, unfortunately

Not sure if anyone pointed this out but at the top I have a '2' for Notifications although there are none (no way to clear it, been there 2-3 days now.)

My biggest problem with wolf and bear is too much book work. Tigers and Webelos is where all the fun stuff is

I've been reading all the Wolf stuff lately and its definitely different than what I imagined. Already planning ways to get them done (those that we do at den meets) - should be interesting!

I believe cubs does get a little long. The problem is there is to much "school" work involved and not enough fun. It also gets hard for den leaders to come up with the supplies and tools to do some of the activities. The How To book is hopelessly outdated. There are only so many birdhouse kits you can build and in the more northern states you get stuck inside for most of the program year. I did the wolf secret code elective last week and it was a HUGE hit. I never would have guessed. Shows you how much I know. My old council in a smaller city had TONS of lockins at museums and such. Those went over big. St. Louis unfortunately has none of that stuff. Our yards were bigger and we did lots of backyard campouts to change things up. Honestly in my opinion the best thing to do at the kindergarten age is to hit the learning to read hard and heavy. Introducing a second language while their brain is still receptive is also a big one. Leaf rubbings can wait a year.

We tried to do that this past year as well. We made almost all of our activities 'fun' while teaching and asking questions along the way to try to keep them thinking. I think the Tiger achievements were pretty decent for that age group. The most 'boring' activity, I think, was the trip to the newspaper. They tried to make it fun for them and even put them in the paper for it but it just couldn't hold their attention, I admit I completely understand as I had a trip there as a senior and was equally as bored. Our plans worked well for the most part (better than I expected) and all those who stuck with it all year ranked up in good time and had time left to try to earn some of the more 'fun' awards. We didn't follow any one method, we grabbed ideas from online, each other, those in the program longer than us and the manuals. So many drilled into my head to use the 'How To' books from the scout shop but some of that was just too much for us. We live in the south in the woods (small town) and that gave us an advantage to do quite a bit of activities outside which they loved.

I remember seeing someone online before about Lion Cubs I think it was? Need to look it back up, I know it was for Kindergarten age kids (not sure if it was an American program or elsewhere.) At this point, I'm glad it starts out in first grade but I know a lot of people who wish it started sooner. Our pack has a huge drop out rate as the kids get older (the biggest being from Webelos/AOL to Boy Scout.) Not sure if that's common everywhere but for now I'll just be happy to see mine make it through the next few years without wanting to sport/activity hop like so many kids here do.

I noticed that too Sqyire on KDD's link. Very cool that they're bringing it back, even if its a different age group. Do y'all know if they've ever had a group for scouts that young before? (Just curious.)

I remember seeing someone online before about Lion Cubs I think it was? Need to look it back up, I know it was for Kindergarten age kids (not sure if it was an American program or elsewhere.) At this point, I'm glad it starts out in first grade but I know a lot of people who wish it started sooner. Our pack has a huge drop out rate as the kids get older (the biggest being from Webelos/AOL to Boy Scout.) Not sure if that's common everywhere but for now I'll just be happy to see mine make it through the next few years without wanting to sport/activity hop like so many kids here do.

My youngest is the same way, anxious, due to his older brother and he got into it due to his friends in class joining. And agreed completely on the little ones. One at a time at home for me is daunting. 15 or 20- forget about it. I am anxious to see how the lion cubs pan out in the coming years. If it ever reaches here in the boonies my youngest will probably be too old but I'd still like to see how they manage it.

I remember seeing someone online before about Lion Cubs I think it was? Need to look it back up, I know it was for Kindergarten age kids (not sure if it was an American program or elsewhere.) At this point, I'm glad it starts out in first grade but I know a lot of people who wish it started sooner. Our pack has a huge drop out rate as the kids get older (the biggest being from Webelos/AOL to Boy Scout.) Not sure if that's common everywhere but for now I'll just be happy to see mine make it through the next few years without wanting to sport/activity hop like so many kids here do.

In 17 years of working with Cub Scouts, I have heard very few (if any) complaints about the uniform. The Tigers love it. The older boys tend to get whiney, but then they get whiney about everything as they get older! They still wear their uniforms.

 

The short sleeve Cub shirt isn't really any hotter than a regular shirt, and Cubs have the options of buying shorts, or the zip-off Switchback pants. The problem with Cubs is a lighter weight uniform will not last a week. Especially the pants. Little boys seem to be highly affected by gravity. They spend a good portion of their time on their knees, and/or skidding across floors/sidewalks/etc. You need something extremely sturdy.

 

As others have stated, a Pack t-shirt for active activities is also a viable way to go.

 

Faith - for the slipping neckers, tie a knot, or put a rubber band, under the slide,

Nice, thank you! I was not aware that we could make our own (as someone who is trying to get everyone to follow the uniform code to the best of their ability, I had no idea if that would be acceptable or not.) I know they'd love to do that though, we have a crafty bunch Never would have thought of grip tape either!

On June 1st your rank advances from one rank to the next. So a Kindergarden boy who is no rank, would be a Tiger. Its not a loop hole, its just true You are your rank for an entire 12 months (June-June) as long as you are registered with the BSA. Tigers are not just Tigers from August-June. The requirement to be a Tiger is "Completed Kindergarden" not "In First Grade". Some School systems have an inbetween grade that is for kids who completed kindergarden but are not quite ready for 1st grade.

 

One of the reasons a lot of Packs dont recruit graduating Kindergardeners is because most packs typically break for the summer so the child would have day camp and maybe 1-2 activities during the summer and you run the risk of them becoming disinterested. And normally Tiger dens don't form really well until fall recruitment when you have enough kids and adult leaders to take them on.

 

That's about all our pack has during the summer but we still recruit out of Kindergarten as well. Even though some of our Tigers were recruited last May, we didn't form a den until September (and only one of the scouts they recruitd then stayed after camp.) So I know exactly what you mean, we saw it happen last year. I wasn't sure if you were just replying to the last few posts or the thread itself but this I completely understand and agree with I was just having trouble with kids going INTO Kindergarten being Tigers. Thankfully they were able to resolve it!

That is actually exactly what we were doing that day (the DD had went around to the schools and sent home papers about the meeting to kids who will be finished with kindergarten next week.) They all signed up for our day camp as well (one of my moving up tigers this year attended last year's before he entered 1st grade.)

Interesting situation..... I think it better for the boys to not be admitted until the 1st grade.....

 

On a parallel note, I was thinking about something just the other day when I for some reason pulled out my old BS Handbook. At B&G when our pack does it's annual crossover, my son won't technically be old enough for Boy Scouts.

Checking the modern standards, per the BSA web site

If you're a boy age 11, or at least 10 and have completed the fifth grade, or have earned the Cub Scout Arrow of Light Award, to 17 years old, the time for a real adventure is now.

At crossover time, assuming of course that my son sticks with it and wants to cross over..., he'll be IN the 5th grade and will be 10 years old. So if he doesn't earn the AOL, he'll not technically be allowed to cross over I guess...... but he was perfectly "by the book" to join as a Tiger in the 1st grade. Kind of a loop hole for sure where BSA ages don't mesh well with the school systems.....

So he's one of the youngest in the class, and one of the youngest in his den, but he fits right in with all of them..... in fact excels.

 

BUT, while his age is on the low end, his ability and maturity fall more in step I think with the school grade level. This is why I think the OP's situation with kindergarten kids is a bad fit.....

 

This will apply to my oldest as well. Thanks to where his birthday falls, he won't be 11 until August (the same August he will be going into 6th grade.) So if he ranks up that February at our B&G, he will be 10 and 3 months away from completing fifth grade (I see KDD's son is also in the same boat.) I imagine lots of kids are due to what you said (conflicting with the school system.) I was in my first year of college at 17 (never skipped a grade) for the exact same reason.

Agreed Hopefully if my son is still interested in it come that time as he is now, he will go for his AOL and be covered no matter what.

 

And as for age appropriate, I also agree about 9 year olds / 4th grade. That's why this situation had me perplexed. Thankfully they nipped it in the bud before anything came out of it (well, moreso than it has already.)

In 17 years of working with Cub Scouts, I have heard very few (if any) complaints about the uniform. The Tigers love it. The older boys tend to get whiney, but then they get whiney about everything as they get older! They still wear their uniforms.

 

The short sleeve Cub shirt isn't really any hotter than a regular shirt, and Cubs have the options of buying shorts, or the zip-off Switchback pants. The problem with Cubs is a lighter weight uniform will not last a week. Especially the pants. Little boys seem to be highly affected by gravity. They spend a good portion of their time on their knees, and/or skidding across floors/sidewalks/etc. You need something extremely sturdy.

 

As others have stated, a Pack t-shirt for active activities is also a viable way to go.

 

Faith - for the slipping neckers, tie a knot, or put a rubber band, under the slide,

Thank you both for the suggestions! We will play around with it and see what we can do that's safe and will keep that bugger on.

Cub Scouts is a family activity. So the younger brother should be welcome to attend Den Meetings and participate in what is appropriate for him to participate. When he gets left out of tasks that are too hard for his age group' date=' he won't feel like he is being left out as part of the Den, but rather left out because he is too young yet and he will be able to do all this next year.[/quote']

 

I encourage this quite a bit in our den. Myself and three other moms all have two kids and each of the siblings are just barely younger than our Tigers. We allow them to participate in what they can (games, hikes, etc.) and for things they can't do, they sit by and watch. I've heard a few of the younger siblings state they can't wait to be a cub (I hope that enthusiasm continues.) Fingers crossed this will be the case here, although one of the parents (the first to ask about an exception) clearly expressed they wanted them together.

Interesting situation..... I think it better for the boys to not be admitted until the 1st grade.....

 

On a parallel note, I was thinking about something just the other day when I for some reason pulled out my old BS Handbook. At B&G when our pack does it's annual crossover, my son won't technically be old enough for Boy Scouts.

Checking the modern standards, per the BSA web site

If you're a boy age 11, or at least 10 and have completed the fifth grade, or have earned the Cub Scout Arrow of Light Award, to 17 years old, the time for a real adventure is now.

At crossover time, assuming of course that my son sticks with it and wants to cross over..., he'll be IN the 5th grade and will be 10 years old. So if he doesn't earn the AOL, he'll not technically be allowed to cross over I guess...... but he was perfectly "by the book" to join as a Tiger in the 1st grade. Kind of a loop hole for sure where BSA ages don't mesh well with the school systems.....

So he's one of the youngest in the class, and one of the youngest in his den, but he fits right in with all of them..... in fact excels.

 

BUT, while his age is on the low end, his ability and maturity fall more in step I think with the school grade level. This is why I think the OP's situation with kindergarten kids is a bad fit.....

 

This will apply to my oldest as well. Thanks to where his birthday falls, he won't be 11 until August (the same August he will be going into 6th grade.) So if he ranks up that February at our B&G, he will be 10 and 3 months away from completing fifth grade (I see KDD's son is also in the same boat.) I imagine lots of kids are due to what you said (conflicting with the school system.) I was in my first year of college at 17 (never skipped a grade) for the exact same reason.

Reading that and only dealing with cubs, I was wondering the same. I had no idea there were some still in scouting past 18 (I need to do some more looking into Venturing.) I like qwazse's response, I couldn't see myself viewing it any other way if I was in that position currently.

Thanks, explorer and venturer are foreign to me so I will definitely be looking into it for future reference (even if I'm eons away from my boys being in it, it never hurts to look.) Since we joined the scouting community I've been trying my best to learn the ins and outs of all the areas. Haven't made it much out of cubs yet, as there's plenty there alone! I've never heard anyone mention either at any meetings (the only term I remember hearing was sea scouts, something else I'm new to.) I've bought a ton of books on the subject of scouting + have about 50 sites bookmarked, slowly but surely

Ok, here's the thing. There were two parents at the meeting. Both with two sons, one going into Kindergarten this Fall, one going into First grade. When I went to help them sign up the first graders, one asked if her Kindergartener could also join so they'd be together. The other parent liked the idea and said she'd like to know as well. I told her I didn't believe so (due to both being 5 until November and next March and going into K5) but I'd ask the DD (this was to cover my own butt.) He said sure, no problem, brushed it off like it was nothing. He then came over and helped them fill the stuff out. Our CM heard this and pretty much stated what I did, that he thought they were too young. The DD pretty much shushed him until the parents were gone. I then went on to explain why I asked that and he kept saying he didn't see the big deal, this would keep them together. I told him I understood that, I just thought when their fellow classmates hit first (and possibly join up), they will be a year ahead of the rest (I wasn't sure if this was frowned upon, allowed, etc.)

Haha KDD, look here now. I always see y'all using all these fancy abbreviations that I know nothing about. I am forever searching them up online to see what this is, that is, etc. Don't rain on my chance to use one myself (And as for DD, that's always me and I'm ALWAYS sober ) I replied to the thread as a whole, ty again for all the input guys!

Thank you all, I know this was done for two reasons (neither of which I agree with.) One, so the parents would allow their first graders to join (because having them together is more convenient for them) and two for money (our DD LOVES to tell people he's just there to collect the money, I've heard that phrase at least 4 times now.) Our CM and asst. CM felt the same way I did about this. This morning I was included in an email our CM sent to a scout executive and he replied back almost immediately. He thanked our CM for sharing it, apologized for the confusion, stated they must be in 1st grade and are too young, is out of town at the moment but asking another field director to follow up with our DD and have our DD inform the parents himself and process a refund via the scout office.

 

So again, ty all for your input. My CM thanked me as well for bringing it up. Whether its 'convenient' (or brings in more money), I think its best they wait it out too. Heck I have two boys myself that will be a couple years apart in scouts and I have no problem with that. My husband and I will work together with our jobs and them to make sure both can participate as much as possible. Hopefully these parents will understand and try the same.

My youngest was six the entire 1st grade. My oldest was still 5 when he started 1st grade. I don't really understand your question. Why would you want a kindergartener to start Tiger with a bunch of 1st graders ?

Right, both yours were in first grade (I'm assuming) when joining (despite age.) I was wondering if a child isn't 7 AND isn't in First Grade, were they still allowed under special circumstances (my example being with siblings.)

Ok, here's the thing. There were two parents at the meeting. Both with two sons, one going into Kindergarten this Fall, one going into First grade. When I went to help them sign up the first graders, one asked if her Kindergartener could also join so they'd be together. The other parent liked the idea and said she'd like to know as well. I told her I didn't believe so (due to both being 5 until November and next March and going into K5) but I'd ask the DD (this was to cover my own butt.) He said sure, no problem, brushed it off like it was nothing. He then came over and helped them fill the stuff out. Our CM heard this and pretty much stated what I did, that he thought they were too young. The DD pretty much shushed him until the parents were gone. I then went on to explain why I asked that and he kept saying he didn't see the big deal, this would keep them together. I told him I understood that, I just thought when their fellow classmates hit first (and possibly join up), they will be a year ahead of the rest (I wasn't sure if this was frowned upon, allowed, etc.)

Welcome! Glad to have you here