boomerscout

Sometimes it's car camping or no camping if it's hard to get volunteer Scouters willing to hike.

It also jives with direct feedback we have gotten from Council.)

As a courtesy, and to be ethical, you should also have a full discussion with your chartering organization. Don't leave them out there twisting in the wind.

We don't sell BSA popcorn because it is contra to #5: "All commercial products must sell on their own merits, not the benefit received by the Boy Scouts. The principle of value received is critical in choosing what to sell".

First, you'll need to make sure insurance covers non-Scout groups enmeshed into Scouting activities. Many Council camps make available their facilities when Scout camp is not in session. The only problem I foresee is the "outsiders" won't understand or practice the Scout Laws, leave no trace camping, or being helpful to others. They may even taint the Scouts by having IYAs (individual youth accounts).

 

If my son received the kind of check you describe, he would be likely to write one back to the unit for the same amount as a donation.

it would be better just to hand back the original check. That way actual ISA money hasn't entered his checking account

I get you. But if Council and District both say our fund-raising does not meet the personal benefit litmus test, who am I to argue? We asked for an official position and got one.

 

What would be really worthwhile is if National stood up and took a position on this and gave guidance.

Problem here is that Council is not legally responsible for you, your chartering organization is. They are the ones you should have asked if they don't mind you skirting the law

National has taken a position. It is in their "Product Sales Guide" (which is different from their "Product sales Manual).

If this lawn service company can't do a better job than some kid with a mower, they need to find another line of endeavor

That we are selling popcorn means the work hours at Cousin Willie's are being reduced because we have cut into their sales

Our youth who went to Philmont and in the process (before and after) planned two multi-tiered weekend backpacking trips for our troop, crew, AND his Philmont contingent?

He payed for it by a lawn bushiness that he's kept through trade school.

 

The only difference between doing it that way vs. earning the same via an ISA: the troop got ZERO dollars from his hard work. Had he sold the enough in popcorn and other fundraisers over a couple of years to pad his ISA for the trip, the troop would have got 'bout $1K in their general fund. That's 4 camper-ships paid in full between troop and council funds.

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Hmmm, the troop as parasite; interesting model. If every Scout had their own micro-business, no-one would need camperships.

What does planning backpacking trips have to do with Philmont The backpacking does show leadership and character. That should not imply he somehow deserves a reward (trip to Philmont) for same.

Then the lawn service company doesn't get the job and the unskilled laborer can't feed his 6 month old child. All so this scout can enjoy his hobby.

If this lawn service company can't do a better job than some kid with a mower, they need to find another line of endeavor

I like worksheets because they help keep some flighty minds organized. Downloading the ones from USScouts will only cost the print per sheet charge

The issue arises w Is there a prohibition or process for entering into a contractual relationship with an entiry or business that already offers training in kayaking and already provides eqiupment and training to all comers?

No, no prohibition. For example, many for profit riding stables "offer" horsemanship mb, U.S.Naval Academy offers STEM merit badges through its NESA chapter, many zoos handle the reptile...mb/

One way or another' date=' the fundraising is gonna happen. Either every boy will do odd jobs and pay for their own fees/gas/uniforms/awards/etc.... Or, the unit will maintain a large budget with accounts for each boy that enables him to see if he's done enough to cover his cost to the troop for serving in it.[/quote']

Odd jobs are generally referred to as work or earnings, and not as fundraising.

If a Scout has been trained to check and see if he's done enough to cover his costs, then I think we've failed him.

I suppose you pack them next to the emergency water canteen condoms?

 

So I don't carry around any books either on these adventures.

You don't carry your Scout Handbook or Field Manual with you? Horrors!

KDD: You could have the committee member read BSA's "Product Sales Guide". It's online; it's a short, quick read

If an ISA represents cash that be drawn upon, especially if it can be transferred to other units, then it doesn't matter how good the treasurer is. These funds need to be kept in a separate bank account separate from the unit's bank account. The principle of commingling is as follows:

"Trustees, guardians or lawyers holding client funds have a duty not to commingle those funds with their own, since commingling is generally prohibited as a conflict of interest. Use of commingled funds for an investment, even though it might benefit both the trustee and the beneficiary, is still improper. To avoid commingling, trustees, lawyers, guardians and those responsible for another's funds set up trust accounts for funds of another."

The troop, as fiduciary, has possession of the money belonging to minors. It then needs to be above board, and free of all suspicion. It may even need to have each ISA in its own separate bank account. However, all this is moot as Scouting.org says NO ISAs.

While many large non-profits go the two signatures route, issuing troop debit cards to the SM and ASMs need not mean that any one of them is going to suddenly run off to Brazil. The treasurer can maintain two accounts - the main checkbook account and a separate, secondary account he/she keeps topped up with $500 (?). We trust our kids lives to these Scouters; we can't trust them with some of our money?

While I can't imagine it happening, doesn't all monies held in the troop's name legally belong to the chartering organization?

Scouter99' date=' Take for example the treasurer functions of Troop Web Host. I bought charcoal and propane for the troop, turn in a receipt, treasurer writes me a check, now I have to go to to the bank and deposit the dang thing and hope I don't lose it. Several other leaders have similar expenses, rinse repeat. [/quote']

 

Why not just use one of the troop's debit cards in the first place? I suppose the treasurer could transfer reimbursements to your Paypal account with a few clicks, but wouldn't that involve a service fee? Instead of writing you a check, a good treasurer could just debit cash, credit supplies, and then credit cash, debit the receivable of your food bill -- no paper involved.

 

It may be silly, but it's all-above-board legal.

 

As far as the pants, if the committee doesn't want to put $$'s into their troop account for the boy to draw on, they simply take it out of his account and cut him a check and deduct it out of his ISA when he turns in his receipt for the pants. .

no, no ISA, no Christmas Club approach, no personal expense account. Now, if the troop is going to buy everyone pants, you could say the pants will cost each forty Scout spirit points. Fundraiser A is worth 4 spirit points, paperdrive B is worth 6.. you keep a running balance until the pants are "paid off", but at no time can there be a personal kitty to draw from -- I believe

[quote=Scouter99;n40798

Until we get better guidance from National, what I'd say is that with some of these programs, either the council or the vendor kicks in extra commission if sales are over $X. You could maybe allocate that to boys who are outstanding sellers. But again, we can see that Johnny sold a ton, but the total sales resulting in extra commission were the result of everyone's sales added together.

You simply have to separate allocation from sales.

While you can't allocate any money to specific boys for oputstanding sales - that would be wages - you can award incentive awards that you've announced/shown/displayed ahead of time at an awards ceremony. One such award could be a year's registration fee

Let the Scouts save their odd jobs money in their own piggybanks. That will give them a leg up on the Personal Mgmnt mb. By having them put their odd jobs moola into a troop ISA type savings account you may be acccused of commingling funds -- something you never ever want to be accused of.

The IRS website has a discussion on de minimis. I inferred (I am not an attorney) that if it is under $100, and happens infrequently -- such as annual dues -- then you are OK. The IRS went on to say that incentive awards - I'm thinking local Council camp fees or parts thereof - are OK if they are not spoken of as earnings, and are presented in some kind of ceremony.

As for the one paragraph from the BSA, the publication also said: "“There may be older official BSA documents that exist on the internet that reference the use of Individual Scout Accounts, this statement supersedes all other references. We are making every effort to replace older documents as they are discovered.†The BSA publication "Product Sales Guide" is well worth a read.

What I gather from all this is that the accrual type of ISA where it is equivalent to a savings account is something to stay well away from.

Qwazse:

I realize you are upset, but if BSA-national says that ISAs are not allowed, then that must mean that ISAs are not allowed. Therefore, your example of Scouts pooling their ISAs to send someone to HA/Jambo is specious because ISAs aren't supposed to exist. If some troops still engage in ISAs, that just means National has not yet yanked their charter.

While the article in Forbes started with an account of an athletic booster club, it more importantly went on to talk about de minimis and private benefit. In any case, the writer does not make the policy for the BSA; what he gave are just his opinions. That he may see some troop still doing ISAs is in the same category of should you jump off a cliff just because you see everyone else jumping off a cliff.

I suppose you can go rogue and start your own breakaway Scouting movement.

From Scouting.org

Can my unit credit amounts from fundraising to an individual toward their expenses?

No. The IRS has stated that crediting fundraising amounts constitutes private benefit. However, the

unit could use the funds (all or a percentage) raised to reduce or eliminate dues and various

registration fees, purchase uniforms and Scouting books, and purchase camping equipment. The

unit could also use its funds to provide assistance to individual Scouts in cases of financial

hardship.

From a CPA writing in Forbes: Fundraising funds used to pay registration fees, summer camp fees handbooks and so on are allowed under the principle of de minimis in that they further one of the stated purposes of Scouting. Handing a Scout $2000 for HA is hardly de minimis and is not one of the stated purposes of Scouting.

indirectly from council camperships for the families who needed it

If the $2000 was left within the troop, the troop could provide its own camperships as in all the troop money being used to send the entire troop to camp. That way, more Scouts within Council could go to camp.

If the HA or Philmont was promoted as primarily a training workshop to better spread the gospel then maybe no problem. We all know it's not. Both are promoted as being great fun and having a wonderful personal experience. That's private benefit. If you could get an actual letter from the IRS instead of a verbal opinion -- that would be great

(Twelve miles per day at Philmont? Ha-ha-ha!)

"One half year being an honorable camper. Making sure everyone's pack is in order, making sure all other tents are up before pitching your own, polishing those grills, being obsessive about litter pick-up, whipping the ends of every frayed rope, coiling every loose rope, being THE GUY scouts can go to when they can't figure out a skill, cleaning windows and mirrors during the fuel stop, being first gathering kindling to start the fire. And doing all of it with a cheerful and friendly disposition ... THAT entitles you to other boy's votes."

Well, yes and no. A lot of OA is about brotherhood and leadership. To me, brotherhood implies team effort. If your potential OA candidate led agroup in gathering kindling while telling them which wood made good kindling and which did not, organized a race to see which could clean their half of the van windows quickest, initiates teaching a skill... then he would be the ideal candidate.

When I was elected to undergo the OA ordeal, I was the only one from my school in my troop