boomerscout

Earlier I asked about how an atheist can have religious beliefs since religion implies the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power.

 

Really? That would be news to a whole bunch of Buddhist (and a bunch of people of quite a few other faiths). Though I guess you could be one of those people that don't believe Buddhism is a real religion.

Buddha understood there were/are many gods. He just didn't believe thwere was/is a creator god. Anyway, what does an atheist believe in? Anything?

Earlier I asked about how an atheist can have religious beliefs since religion implies the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power.

 

Really? That would be news to a whole bunch of Buddhist (and a bunch of people of quite a few other faiths). Though I guess you could be one of those people that don't believe Buddhism is a real religion.

Although, if you think about it, compared to most of us, Buddha was superhuman

Earlier I asked about how an atheist can have religious beliefs since religion implies the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power.

 

Really? That would be news to a whole bunch of Buddhist (and a bunch of people of quite a few other faiths). Though I guess you could be one of those people that don't believe Buddhism is a real religion.

I doubt the original poster is a Buddhist. I merely gave him the dictionary definition of rligion.

That should be Where Have the Boy Scouts Gone on bsatoday.org

 

We accept the idea of a Supreme Being because our founder, Baden Powell, told us to.

In contrast to the Christian-only Boys' Brigade, which started two decades earlier, Robert Baden-Powell founded the Scout movement as a youth organisation (with boys as 'Scouts' and girls as 'Guides'), which was independent of any single faith or religion, yet still held that spirituality and a belief in a higher power were key to the development of young people

The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) in the United States takes a hard-line position, excluding atheists and agnostics.[11] The BSA has come under strong criticism over the past years due to their religious policy and stance against agnostics and atheists:

"Declaration of Religious Principle. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honour I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of his favours and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."[11]

The Boy Scouts of America has accepted Buddhist members and units since 1920, and also accepts members of various pantheistic faiths. Many Buddhists do not believe in a supreme being or creator deity, but because these beliefs are still religious and spiritual in nature, they are deemed acceptable by the BSA since their leaders subscribe to the BSA Declaration of Religious Principle

While the BSA associates with the WOSM for mutual benefit, the WOSM does not control the BSA

 

Earlier I asked about how an atheist can have religious beliefs since religion implies the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power. I can accept you have moral beliefs or idealistic beliefs; I would just not call them religious

 

Is Where Have All the Boy Scouts Gone? your website?

 

DWise1,

 

The only way to get a clear answer to you query would be to contact the BSA legal department at the National Council. The only thing that you will get here are posts from the web that you can also find, various opinions and points of view, and some arguments. You are asking for a definitive declarative statement. You can get those from court cases or directly from the BSA if they are willing to make such a statement, which I would doubt. It is not clear to me why you are so demanding on this topic. Do you intend to take something posted here to assail the BSA in a public manner?

Where's Beavah? We need his input. He didn't pass on to the other side, did he?

Well, if you post BS you shouldn't act surprised when you get called on it. Like your kangaroo analogy, which stinks of the BSA BS lie of "we're not excluding anybody, but rather they are excluding themselves."

 

But at least you now appear to be trying to actually discuss.

 

Here's what I've garnered from what little BSA training I've had. Their definition DOES NOT MATTER. An attempt to lead a plaintiff to leverage a relativistic-argument DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is if when asked' date=' one can say they are living a life answerable to God. The asker may not understand the breadth of that as well as the person being asked does -- or maybe it's the other way around. But, the choice of that word allows for that kind of latitude. At least what I've been taught through BSA's instruction on the matter, is that a person's willingness to say they are doing that is all I need to know.[/quote']

You're headed in the right direction, but there's still a problem. BSA's definition does not matter, that is true, because officially BSA has no definition nor does it allow itself to form any definition or interpretation for "God", "belief in God", or just what "Duty to God" must entail, though it does define what "Duty to God" is, no part of which includes any specific theological requirements such as "belief in God". And as a Scouter, that is what you need to follow.

 

But then you come up with "What matters is if when asked, one can say they are living a life answerable to God." Meaning what exactly? Then you dissemble by effectively saying that it doesn't mean anything and yet that person's membership depends on it. What you are doing here is, as in your earlier post requiring "belief in God", is that you are creating and applying additional requirements that are not required. If you read the Advancement Guidelines, you will see something that you should have also been told on your training: you cannot add or subtract from the existing requirements. Officially, BSA does not require "belief in God" and yet you have added that requirement. Officially, BSA does not require "Duty to God" to entail "living a life answerable to God" and yet you have added your own personal interpretation as an additional requirement.

 

The reason why BSA attempts to define "God" is important, besides because it exposes BSA's violation of its own rules, is that that word has been loaded within our culture as referring specifically to one very specific supernatural being, YHWH. So even if you say that it could mean anything, the reality is that hardly any non-YHWHist would normally use that term to describe his own religion or belief system. So without a proper and undoubtedly lengthy discussion of what the official rules are really looking for under "Duty to God", most non-YHWHists would undoubtedly deny any belief in or allegiance to YHWH. That not at all mean that they do not do their "Duty to God" as is really required, but rather that they would deny that YHWH has anything whatsoever to do with it. And they would be perfectly right and would qualify for membership, but you would deny them that membership because of that one word, "God", and because of the additional requirements that you are imposing on them because of your own sectarian interpretations.

 

Try this little experiment. Replace every occurance of "God" with "Allah", or even better with "Vishnu". As a believing practicing Christian, wouldn't you be taken aback by being required to do your "Duty to Allah" or "Duty to Vishnu"? Especially if the gung-ho Scouter you're dealing with also requires to to declare that you believe in "Allah" or in "Vishnu". Would you as a believing practicing Christian normally express your religious beliefs using "Allah" or "Vishnu"? Are you starting to see what it's like to walk a mile in another man's shoes?

 

 

 

So why should any of this matter of BSA religious discrimination matter to you? Well, it should for several reasons, assuming that you are actually dedicated to Scouting (ie, not all volunteers register because of their support for Scouting and I'm just just talking about Mormons being drafted).

 

To start with, as the organization responsible for providing Scouting to US youth, BSA should at least be setting the example and leading by example by living by the principles of Scouting, rather than willfully violating those principles, most fundamentally Scout's Honor. In so refusing, BSA is setting the wrong example and sending the wrong message and public support for Scouting has suffered for it.

 

For example, as positive a face as I tried to put on everything, my son still could see what BSA was doing to his father and to others like the Randalls and he could plainly see how wrong their were. He's about to turn 32. When he returned home for Xmas from out-of-state university and I was driving him and a friend of his home from the airport with a minor detour so he could get a Del Taco burrito (not available in ND). As we drove past the BSA council office, he pointed it out to his friend and described it as the most evil place in the county. And the number of people who think that of BSA is growing with every dishonorable act by BSA.

 

Oh, you may think that this is a rare problem that hardly ever happens, but that is because you only hear what BSA tells you (which will be nothing) or what appears in the local news, which will only show up if somebody tries to fight their expulsion. But the numbers of children and adults subjected to BSA religious discrimination is quite large. Eagle Scout Steve Cozzo who saw the same hypocrisy in BSA that I've been describing founded Scouting for All (http://www.scoutingforall.org/). He reported receiving hundreds of phone call every year from scouts who had been expelled, about 60% for being gay and 40% for being atheists. It is not a minor problem.

 

BSA has wasted millions of dollars in court battles that it created itself and very easily could have settled out of court simply by talking with its victims. The results of those court cases, while finding that the laws cited did not apply to a private organization like BSA, did also find that BSA discriminates. And it became quite clear to the public following the news that BSA discriminates, as it also became clear to BSA's sponsors and donors who have very definite anti-discrimination policies. This has resulted in many of them dropping their support for BSA, which impacts BSA's budget which should impact their ability to promote Scouting in the USA (disregarding what's diverted to their self-inflicted legal costs and the CSE's really huge compensation package). I'm not sure, but in the reports of the recent decision to include gay youth I recall reading that BSA's main motivation in even considering the matter was because of its ever-growing loss of sponsors.

 

Scouting is also losing chartering organizations and hence units, because of those former COs' own anti-discrimination policies. The US military used to be a big supporter of Scout units, but they are being ordered to not sponsor any units because of BSA discrimination. And a number of public schools are no longer allowing BSA access to their students because of BSA's claim of being a secret religious organization (a legalistic lie they started using in the 1990's court cases, but which is coming back to bite them). This much further reduces the availability of Scouting to US youth, particularly the children of military families living overseas.

 

There's also the problem of the continuing loss of membership, which in turn concerns BSA because the donations it receives are tied to the number of youth that they are serving. Even though they have opened up programs to a wider range of members (eg, Tiger Cubs) and even though that segment of the population is still growing, membership is still shrinking. http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa_membership.html examines the numbers and finds that for the year ending December 31, 2012, BSA has lost over 643,566 registered Cub Scouts since 1998. Total youth membership in BSA's traditional programs has declined by approximately 27% (965,244 members), since 1997! The author of that page points to the fact that BSA is catering to the prejudices of older generations while the younger generation, the parents of boys of Scouting age, are largely repulsed by BSA's virulent discriminatory policies. Another reason that the parents of boys of Scouting age are rejecting BSA is because so many of them have friends and family who are gay or non-theists, so they know that there is nothing wrong with such people and that there is no real reason for them to be discriminated against. And the number of non-believers is steadily growing, fueled in part by the children of fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative Christians who had been raised in the faith and are leaving it -- no, running from it -- in droves, the numbers ranging from 60% to 80% who leave religion altogether by early adulthood. While that last one is a problem for the churches which they have been doing their best to ignore, it also increases exposure to BSA religious discrimination and further erosion of public support for BSA and for Scouting.

 

BSA's sole purpose, its sole reason for even existing, is to provide Scouting to US youth. It is instead endangering Scouting in the USA. How could anyone who actually believes in Scouting possibly support what BSA is doing to it?

 

Oh, hogwash! If belief in Yahweh was required by all, then the Ad Altare Dei would be the only religious medal offered by Scouting. Instead they do have medals for Hindu, Buddhist, Unity, others. If they added medals for Manitou and God as Gaia I would be happier. God has many names and takes many forms

Scouting has always had its religious aspects. It was never secret.

The main motivation to now including gay youth was that the state of California was going to start taxing their fundraisers & donations if they didn't

Hi DWise:

Please catch me up with this. You say you don't accept a Supreme Being, but had no problem with accepting Duty to God. How did/do you define "God"? Also, in a later reply you talked about your religious beliefs. How can an atheist have religious beliefs?

I can't get this page to scroll and lock-on, so am starting a new reply. There is a big diff between cash and credits: actual cash comes out of the Scout's wallet, while credits are a paper entry in the overall troop account -- the Scout never actually sees this as money, but just sees a bookkeeping entry. An example: 3 weeks of summer camp is going to cost $300. The Scout is told it is going to cost 300 credits.He has 200 credits in his ISA, so has to come up with $100 in cash.

 

King Dong: bake sales are exempt because everyone is supposed to understand the baked goods are baked in homes by amateurs, and you take your chances

 

So, if we stop valuing ISA in dollars, and switch to credits, even though there is a one to one correspondence, and everyone understands the ISA has to be spent within the troop (camping fees, uniforms, Scout Shop training kits, patches & badges, etc) many of the problems should be resolved

We need to stop thinking of ISA as an individual Scout's earnings. They are not earnings; the Scout cannot take and invest them, or spend them at will. The money belongs to the troop (OK, the CO). and is used to carry on activities that benefits its members. So why, then, an ISA? As an incentive. Now, if an ISA were strictly made up of fundraising shares, then it would be earnings, and taxable per the IRS. (And even if below the filing minimums, the Scout will still need to make his social security contribution on these earnings.) And, we would probably have to make sure each Scout is getting minimum wage.

A proper ISA also gets "credits" based on participation, leadership, advancement. You may be a rotten salesman, but if your ISA is large enough due to Scouting activities it may pay for camp. That's why I suggested credits in place of money. Putting a dollar value on participation seems too mercenary

If everyone pulled equally, the ISA would not be needed as the troop as a whole would have all the money it needed. If your high achievers in fundraising didn't mind a bit of socialism, then ISA would also not be needed.

I can't get this page to scroll and lock-on, so am starting a new reply. There is a big diff between cash and credits: actual cash comes out of the Scout's wallet, while credits are a paper entry in the overall troop account -- the Scout never actually sees this as money, but just sees a bookkeeping entry. An example: 3 weeks of summer camp is going to cost $300. The Scout is told it is going to cost 300 credits.He has 200 credits in his ISA, so has to come up with $100 in cash.

 

King Dong: bake sales are exempt because everyone is supposed to understand the baked goods are baked in homes by amateurs, and you take your chances

 

So, if we stop valuing ISA in dollars, and switch to credits, even though there is a one to one correspondence, and everyone understands the ISA has to be spent within the troop (camping fees, uniforms, Scout Shop training kits, patches & badges, etc) many of the problems should be resolved

legal because camping fee, uniforms, training kits , badges are directly related to the reason and purpose of the organization. Personal camping equipment would not qualify because the equipment can be used many places outside the organization. Push your Scouts to earn all the home repair, gardening, salesmanship & public speaking merit badges. The knowledge thus gained will allow them to take on more odd jobs

I can't get this page to scroll and lock-on, so am starting a new reply. There is a big diff between cash and credits: actual cash comes out of the Scout's wallet, while credits are a paper entry in the overall troop account -- the Scout never actually sees this as money, but just sees a bookkeeping entry. An example: 3 weeks of summer camp is going to cost $300. The Scout is told it is going to cost 300 credits.He has 200 credits in his ISA, so has to come up with $100 in cash.

 

King Dong: bake sales are exempt because everyone is supposed to understand the baked goods are baked in homes by amateurs, and you take your chances

 

So, if we stop valuing ISA in dollars, and switch to credits, even though there is a one to one correspondence, and everyone understands the ISA has to be spent within the troop (camping fees, uniforms, Scout Shop training kits, patches & badges, etc) many of the problems should be resolved

 

Look at the bright side: public schools can again sponsor Scouts, California police & fire can get re-involved with Learning for Life. Research biologists understand that the incidence of homosexuality increases as an area increases past its carrying capacity -- one of Gaia's pressure relief valves. We need to be very careful we (hetereo) don't treat gays as our forefathers treated post Civil War freed slaves

This is the camp policy they publish in their leaders guide.

 

LIGHTNING OR SEVERE STORM

The Aquatics Area, COPE Area, and fishing docks close immediately. Scouts remain in their program area or

campsite unless otherwise instructed by the camp staff. Further instructions will be sent out from the Camp

Administration

 

My real problem is we never get told to move to the Dining Hall until after the storm is over top of the camp, and it's usually after dark. Then my dilemma is to heard 25 people across an open space to get them to the safety of the Dining Hall. In the past I have refused and gotten all my scouts out of their bunks and under our own camp sites Pavilion. This does not endear me to the camp staff, who by the way are all just college kids including the camp director (also, they are all of the opinion that all Scoutmasters are idiots). With all the reports of injuries from lightning strikes lately I seem to be second guessing my own decisions. I don't want to see anyone get hurt sitting under a Pavilion or crossing an open parking lot trying to get to safety.

Pavilions don't have sides to block the lightning from spreading/entering. They are also not grounded to divert the lightning. Caves aren't safe either unless at least 500 feet deep. Many times, pavilions are the tallest structure in a field. Yeah, some days you just can't win no matter what you do

Not unethical Scouting is recognized as an educational activity; camping is part and parcel of the education. If ISA are used for camp fees, field trips & uniforms, then everything OK. If one Scout uses his ISA to buy a Big Agnes, then not OK as that is individual, personal gain. and must be declared as income. However, Scout probably comes under the minimum earnings level to file. Didn't we discuss this last year?

Scout would not be allowed to spend $1000 on camping equipment as money is not allowed to leave the organization -- the troop. He can spend it within the organization for camp fee, High Adventure fees & permit & optional program extras, and for uniforms. He cannot withdraw cash to go and spend it on his own. Now, the troop as a whole can buy everyone in the troop a Big Agnus if it really believes it will further enhance its camping program -- one of its reasons for existence. Cash motivational awards, such as a $1000 gift card for selling a case of Trails End, are allowed -- it's taxable income to the Scout. As long as all the "eyes" are crossed and all the tees are dotted, Scout leaders can even be compensated. Not all non-profits are charities. Perhaps ISA should be denominated in units or credits instead of in money. I missed your earlier post, I can't get this website to scroll most of the time

Pavilions are not safe per both NOAA and U.S. Lifesaving Association. Safest is get into a car or run to dining hall. Restrooms would seem to be safe, but are generally wet -- therefore conductive - with lots of exposed metal. I googled "open sided pavilion safe in thunderstorm"

True kids under 14 cannot hold jobs, but they can be self-employed. Someone mentioned selling rabbits. They can also be the jr. neighborhood handyman, run errands, babysit, grow produce to sell, make something to sell

If they make the popcorn, the "factory" must be first inspected by the Health Dept.

Not unethical Scouting is recognized as an educational activity; camping is part and parcel of the education. If ISA are used for camp fees, field trips & uniforms, then everything OK. If one Scout uses his ISA to buy a Big Agnes, then not OK as that is individual, personal gain. and must be declared as income. However, Scout probably comes under the minimum earnings level to file. Didn't we discuss this last year?

True kids under 14 cannot hold jobs, but they can be self-employed. Someone mentioned selling rabbits. They can also be the jr. neighborhood handyman, run errands, babysit, grow produce to sell, make something to sell

Camping is free. Some examples: Andersonville A primitive campsite is available, free of charge, across Highway 49 from the National Cemetery entrance on National Park Service land. The group campsite is available only for organized youth groups such as Boy and Girl Scouts and must be reserved at least two weeks in advance. Eligible groups should have a connection to the park including camping as part of a curriculum or program based visit to the park, or be providing volunteer assistance to the park. To reserve this campsite, call the park at least two weeks in advance Florida Scouts can trade work in the state park in lieu of camping fees. Look for a conservation tie-in. Properly approached, your area should have something similar with Federal or state agencies.

once landed, no reason son can't carry his own Leatherman in a belt case

I was not clear in my explanation. You will not have to be in uniform to carry your Leatherman. Guys here in Ohio carry their Leathermen while in civilian clothes. They use a belt sheath both to make it visible, and to avoid wearing a hole in their pockets Your son should carry his Scouting ID card on his person. As a foreign guest visiting our country neither of you should have much of a problem. I carry my 4 inch lockable into the courthouse all the time; I just need to leave it with the guard and pick it up when I leave. On the other hand, if I did that in a big city I might get arrested. A partially deaf man was killed by police in Seattle. He had had his legal knife out and was whittling while crossing an intersection. He apparently did not act meekly enough to suit the police officer

as long as sheath knife is sheathed and in checked luggage there will be no problem. Hint: pack in same suitcase as uniform, and leave it there. Double edged knives such as daggers and dirks generally not permitted anywhere. You can visibly wear your knife while camping, hunting, hiking or on a Scout activity. However, some Scout camps and districts, themselves, have banned fixed blade knives. If knife is carried concealed, Michigan restricts blade length to three inches as otherwise unlawful intent is all too easy for angry police to "prove." Leatherman in a belt sheath is generally OK anywhere except government buildings (includes courthouses) and schools. Son's pocket knife should probably have a blade less than three inches, and do not be on school grounds -- includes parking lot -- with any knife if under 18. Knives in motor homes should be in a locked drawer, cabinet, container not easily reachable from driver's seat; kitchen knives in kitchen area exempt.

 

If you can carry your knives in the UK you should have no problem here

 

No-one likes to be told they are in the wrong, especially parents when their little Johnny's "very future is at stake!"

What sometimes works for me: agree with most everything the parents say, then sit them down with a cold drink in their hand. Call little Johnny over, but no closer than about ten feet. Have him demonstrate what he has supposed to have learned. The results usually wil speak for themselves.

Thank Johnny, and have him go backto whatever he was doing. In a soft tone of voice inform the parents we are trying to teach lifetime skils that will stick, and not running a 50 yard dash

SSS must disagree (I LOVE the Pogo Avatar) . Although I would prefer to EAT at the Pancake dinner we find Spaghetti a better money maker. Our Troop is involved in both and both are heavily attended. We do Spaghetti with Sauce (4-6 meatballs), Garlic Bread, Salad (pre-made) and a dessert and sell for $4-5. Raw materials cost us $2 so we make $3. We do it as a takeaway so we can typically make 500-600 dinners and sell 1,000 tickets (plus get an additional 30% in contributions from not carb eaters). We market it as a "don't cook drive through". Once you solve the pasta making problem (it takes HOURS to cook that many pounds of pasta--we have the help of a restaurant that flash cooks the pasta ahead of time so it shortens the time)

 

We have been doing this for about a decade and are blessed by our CO having a good kitchen.

 

The pancake dinner is a great social occasion but has several issues. First is folks prefer to sit down so you have a capacity issue. We have a large cafeteria to use but still it is a cap. Second is that you have a through put bottleneck on how many pancakes you can flip at one time. We have 4 large industrial ovens with huge hot surfaces and we cannot keep up. Second is that folks (especially scouters ;p expect protein (Bacon, Sausage) which gets expensive per person AND milk, coffee, and OJ. So we have to charge $10 and it costs us $5-7 for materials. And we have to bus tables. Between the price point and the capacity issue we make less money for more effort. I dont know how breakfast places do it.

 

That said pancake dinner is a great fellowship opportunity and lets the locals see our boys and have led to some goodwill and new contributions.

 

We have played with also doing a sausage/dog sort of drive through

 

So study your costs, price points, and logistics on how you plan to do it step and step. Go to restaurant supply stores for bulk food (we buy spaghetti sauce by the 1/2 gallon) for costing. Look for someone who cooked for large groups.

 

Good luck!

About that pancake making bottleneck: You could do what McDonald's does and buy the pancakes pre-made from some wholesaler. Just zap them in the micro and you're done.

Eagle has it right in that make sure your PLC has gone through TLT (and that each has a PL handbook). A few months after that, send them one or two at a time to the training put on by the district or council.

As far as the PLC meetings being unproductive, you may want to provide a generalized meetings template. First 15 minutes any old business, next half hour decide theme for next month (first aid upgrades, pioneering skills, and so on), next 20 minutes covering next months campout, next 20 future camps, etc. If they don't finish each segment in their time limit, you must end it for them the first few times to impart the idea of time discipline.

Lengthy canoe trips can be scary to the young as imagination can be very creative. You might start with a one day canoe outing, work up to a weekend canoe trip and go from there.

There is always the problem of keeping older Scouts occupied while catering to the younger. This was one reason Explorers was tried. You might ask them what they want to do -- lead community service projects, do the actual grunt work in planning fundraisers, plan their own high adventure outing.

Peer learning is generally accepted. This is one reason we attend Camporees. We encourage our Scouts to visit with Scouts from other troops; while socializing they have a chance to ask how things are done in their troops