Krampus

Keep to the code, Stosh. 

Stosh consider yourself lucky. My daughter is in dance. Between shoes and costumes I am in deep. I could fund your troop for a year on what she costs me. 

Is it safe to say there are prescribed ways of doing things (US Code) and accepted practices (various manuals on flag etiquette from the military) which have made their way in to civilian life which have become common practices?

No offense, Stosh, but soccer for select teams can run $2,000 and up where I live. It is big money. All the sports are now very expensive. Multiple sets of uniforms, gear, bags, jackets, etc. Then there are tournaments, travel, practice fees, etc.

I was just having breakfast with my daughter and this topic came up. She said this whole conversation reminded her of that quote from the Incredibles. I had to hunt to find it. She helped.

I used to coach select soccer. The fact is most players will play through high school and not even make their college team. Most teams are not even as elite as they think they are. But you see school teams and organizations doing the same thing; demanding attendance. I guess it comes down to the parents. Personally we had our kids pick 3-4 activities that would allow time for each other's things. I guess my kids are boring. They aren't the best at anything they do but they get good grades, volunteer a lot and have learned some great skills through scouts or volunteering.

My son is completing his Eagle...hopefully soon. I was interested in any special ceremonies or ideas you may have seen or have done in your unit that made the ceremony unique and special. If you have scripts you'd share even better. Thanks.

As far as hammocks go we went with the BSA ones here (http://www.scoutstuff.org/hammock-ultralight-41767.html#.Vfxo_99Viko)

For side sleepers: Guilty. Never thought I could sleep in one. Was so tired on the trail that sleeping on my back, under the stars was so relaxing I was out in 5 mins. 

Section 7 of the code starts with: "The flag, when carried in a procession with another flag or flags, should be either on the marching right; that is, the flag’s own right, or, if there is a line of other flags, in front of the center of that line." I think that means that it is first in line. I guess you could argue the flag was removed on its own and was its own procession. I guess it depends on how much time elapsed. I would advise my scouts to keep to the code and retire the US flag first. When we conduct a color guard for local veterans groups we always check with them on their flag protocol. We never want to run afoul of their expectations.

Sorry, can't help. We live in Texas. Finding two trees with which to hang a hammock is a half day chore on most camp outs. Finding 50 trees for 25 scouts and adults would take a week. We'd have to go to Arkansas to find that many trees. 

We have done it on the AT a few years ago. The boys loved it! The boys got cheap hammocks at Academy Sports, got a few carabiners to seal them in. Each had a tarp or two to hang above themselves. Light sleeping bags. Worked like a charm.

Personally I think there is a difference between respectful and what should be done. Can something wrong be respectful? Absolutely. However, the US flag always leaves the podium first. Other ways to show respect: Have the US flag the only one on the podium. A single flag for a solemn event. Stosh is correct in that the handbook and the US Code are clear on how to handle this situation.

I have to agree with Stosh. The US flag should always leave the podium first. My two cents.

If you want a nice view the Pisgah National Forest is west of Charlotte near Ashville. You can camp there. Of the 44+ peaks above 6,000 feet in the Appalachians, nearly half (22) are in the county surrounding the forest. Cold Mountain is near Camp Daniel Boone. Great overlook!!!

If you take 81 back, in Abingdon, VA there's a good BBQ joint (even for a Texan like me) called Bonefire Smokehouse. West of the interstate about 2 miles. Great food and non-scouting adult beverages.

I just don't see the fuss. The scout followed the process. The adult is being silly in requiring an SMC first before the SMC for rank. Seems an extra step and the boy is trying to follow the procedures adults have put in place.

I guess I don't follow you, @@Twocubdad. You say the scout should approach the SM for an SMC. I thought that is what you advocated. He did and got pushed back for not having stuff signed or "approved". 

I guess I can't see why the SM wouldn't just give the scout an SMC. That would seem more scoutlike, as you put it. What am I missing?

We sent someone this summer who just finished 7th grade and I think is still 12 (or was at the time).

Wish we could. I have several young guys (under 13) that would make great PLs and would benefit greatly from NYLT. Unfortunately our council has set an age limit of 13.

Or we could ask ourselves, What is the Scout-like thing to do here?  How would we want to see one of our Eagle Scouts handle this?  What points of the Scout Law apply?  Courteous?  Friendly? 

 

Still, the easiest solution is for the Scout -- an Eagle Scout -- to simply say to his SM, "Hey, Mr. Smith, I've finished the five merit badges for a palm.  Can I talk to you about how I've demonstrated leadership?" 

Unless I misread the follow up from the original post (below), seems the Scout did follow the process and ask the adult in charge for an SMC. Given that they have a coordinator for such things, does not sound like the SM is that approachable. Since we're going with the Scoutlike thing to do, how about the SM live up to some of those ideals and simply have the SMC rather than create a whole bunch of barriers.

Given the comments below it sounds like the SM is making up a whole bunch of stuff as he goes along. Courteous? Friendly? If it is, I'm not seeing the logic.

I didn't initially provide the details because I wanted to find out if there is an objective, hard and fast rule on this (perhaps I should have known better), but the gamut of your comments illustrates the problem quite well. A 17-year-old scout who earned his eagle rank a few months ago has the sufficient number of merit badges and time being active with the troop for a Bronze Palm. He contacted the troop's SMC/BOR coordinator to schedule an SMC with our scoutmaster. When she requested a date from the SM, he told the scout that they had never met to discuss the leadership activity that he had accomplished or whether such activity would even qualify. He then told the scout that they would need to meet discuss this before they could proceed on anything in regards to an SMC.

Send a few upstart 12-14 year olds to NYLT.

Doesn't NYLT start at 13? At least in my area you have to be 13. Is it different elsewhere?

I am confused.
 
In looking at the Palm requirements, the Scoutmaster Handbook and the GTA, none of these documents say that the requirements for any rank need to be signed off before an SMC can be granted. In fact, Section 4.2.3.5 of the GTA go the opposite direction, saying that:
 

"While it makes sense to hold one after other requirements for a rank are met, it is not required that it be the last step before the board of review. This is an important consideration for Scouts on a tight schedule to meet requirements before age 18. Last-minute work can sometimes make it impossible to fit the conference in before then, so scheduling it earlier can avoid unnecessary extension requests. The conference is not a retest of the requirements upon which a Scout has been signed off. It is a forum for discussing topics such as ambitions, life purpose, and goals for future achievement, for counseling, and also for obtaining feedback on the unit’s program. In some cases, work left to be completed—and perhaps why it has not been completed—may be discussed just as easily as that which is finished."

All these documents concur that an SMC should be granted at the request of the scout, and when the scout believes they have finished all the requirements for a rank. 

If anyone can find where the granting of an SMC requires "sign off" before hand I would like to see it.

That's the second person to leave in as many weeks.

Recycling is not disposing of the flag. I think the US Code covers the rest of it. For me once it is a flag it will always be a flag. When time to retire it, burn it. Recycling it is not an option in my book.

Actually the members of the board were good adults trying to do the right thing. We were in a stage of maturing. I took the situation personally because we didn't give the scout a good out. I could have forced my hand I guess, but it didn't seem appropriate at the time. A lot of scouts benefited from that experience because I learned more about the requirements of all the ranks as well as providing expectations and guiding scouts more consistently.

We were in a similar position a few years ago. I learned to include a POR for the scout just in case someone objected. Thankfully our parents and district folks understand the requirement. Brought it up to our district who was very helpful in making sure the requirement is properly interpreted by the district advancement committee.

Maybe we can recycle the veterans that fought and died to make sure that scrap of material gets put up on a flag pole some day, too.  I'm thinking over the past couple of hundred years there were a lot of people that got hurt for the sake of that symbol and the freedom that the scrap of material symbolizes is for real.

 

Sorry guys, I simply flat out reject the flippant attitude some have for this particular scrap of material. 

 

Lest we forget. (which seems to be happening on a fairly "common" level.)

I'd have to agree. You retire the flag properly. You don't recycle it. The grommets I don't consider part of the flag, merely a tool to post it like a pole or rope.

Here are a few interesting issues in one article. An adult gets Eagle. His project cut up US flags and re-used parts of them. I am sure there's plenty here to discuss.

This may be used for Star and Life, but not Eagle.

Unless you are a Lone Scout, or if there are extenuating circumstances. Both need council approval.

Thanks to all for your comments.

 

I didn't initially provide the details because I wanted to find out if there is an objective, hard and fast rule on this (perhaps I should have known better), but the gamut of your comments illustrates the problem quite well. A 17-year-old scout who earned his eagle rank a few months ago has the sufficient number of merit badges and time being active with the troop for a Bronze Palm. He contacted the troop's SMC/BOR coordinator to schedule an SMC with our scoutmaster. When she requested a date from the SM, he told the scout that they had never met to discuss the leadership activity that he had accomplished or whether such activity would even qualify. He then told the scout that they would need to meet discuss this before they could proceed on anything in regards to an SMC.

The requirement says simply, "Make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability". As an SM to me this means:

• Be able to articulate how leadership ability was developed over the three month period.
• Discuss how the scout was able to demonstrate leadership over the three month period.
• Have been visible during those three months so your leadership is obvious. 

I don't see anywhere where it says that you have to have this approved before an SMC. If you are going to have a meeting with the SM to discuss what he did for leadership why can't that be done in his SMC? To me there's no reason that this discussion could not be part of the SMC.