Krampus

Council and district have gone to using CampMaster for sign ups. Patch counts are based on paid registrants, usually well in advance of the cut off. After that, the patches are run. Leftovers are sold at the council shop.

I doubt, but don't know for sure, if council tracks the profit/loss on patches ordered versus sold versus unsold.

Not assuming anything, More like Hoping.  It can be pretty intense for a 10 year old keeping up with 14,15 or even 16 year old. 

 

The troop my son is in has 4 patrols, my son's make the 5th.

In our unit we make it work with the mixed patrols. The older Scouts really take the younger ones under their wing.

Without orchestrating anything at the adult level, it is funny to see that the younger Scouts in a patrol will tent together while the older Scouts do the same. Rarely do you see a 17 year old and an 11 year old. When you do see it, the younger guys learn a great deal. It all depends on your older Scouts.

Machetes are ok.

...but not bubble ball. Go figure.

Boy Scout age is what?  5th Grade?  10-11 years old, this is the norm.  When he crosses over he should cross over into a age appropriate patrol. 

I do understand your concern with the language and topics the older boys discuss, my son is 3 months into his new troop and turned 11 in March.  He doesn't look like an 11 year old when he stands next to his patrol.   

Age appropriate patrol? You are assuming all troops have new scout patrols or younger boy patrols. Some don't and start off mixed from the beginning.

If he's 10 and has his AOL he can join Boy Scouts in BSA's eyes.

@@Phrogger, I would talk to the troop and see, once he crosses over, if there's not some way he can be aligned with his friends his age.

Careful now, people will begin to call you a heretic too for suggesting there is a difference between Eagles.  

We all know there is. It is not the project that makes one a better Eagle, it is what they did on their path to Eagle.

Do I have Eagles I wish I had not moved on? Yes, of course. Out of the 110+ our unit has awarded over the many years, there have been 2-3 that -- IMHO -- did the absolutely bear minimum to move on. Are they lesser Eagles than others? Strictly speaking, no. Are they lesser in their growth and development than they could have been (and comparatively to other Eagles), then yes.

The irony is that these were all top-notch honor students. Essentially they did the bear minimum to get by in Scouting, whereas, they would never even think of short-changing themselves academically. 

I just think it might be more fair to the boys that if the adults are going to be making up rules that aren't part of the BSA protocol that they inform the boys BEFORE the stuff hits the fan.  I have had too many adults making up rules along the way that more often than not I find myself siding with the youth over the adults! 

 

Too many adults today treat the adolescent as an inferior and surprisingly it is unique to our culture.  In some places in the world an 18 year old is a middle aged man.  In our society, he's  still a kid until he moves out of his parents basement at age 40.

That's entirely it, @@Stosh.

Our unit does this quarterly. We run a report that covers attendance at meetings, service projects and camping. Anyone not meeting our well-established and (monthly) communicated "active" policy, they get an email for an SMC to discuss their level of activity. When we first started this program we have many 14-16 year olds that fell in to that bucket. Within one year we ended up sending out maybe 5 of these notes a year. It has been three years since we have had to send a single one.

We have a Scout now who is close. Parents divorcing, he's withdrawn from everything. Working on his Eagle. Turns 18 next year. Has he been around the last 18 months for the 50%? Nope, not even close. Did we sign his workbook? You bet! We also had a talk about how, when things go pear-shaped in life, you need to find that inner courage to persevere. He agreed...then broke down and said that Scouts reminded him of his dad and how absent he was now in his life.

After all three of us (two adults, one Scout) dried our eyes, we signed his paperwork and wished him luck on his BOR. Best Eagle ever? Hardly. But I don't regret for a minute signing his stuff and moving him along. Maybe, just maybe, what we as adults did for him may help make him a decent father one day.

To sum it all up  what is truly wrong with the scouting program today begins and ends at the National Office, the CSE, and the unprepared and incompetent  SE's they are placing in the field,  many of whom are bankrupting the councils they are assigned to instead of building them up and making them successful.

If their training for the CSEs is like their adult volunteer training, the first module is "Make Council Successful". The sole content being "Go and make the council successful."

That was their "Get more minorities to join Scouting" training. In a nutshell they said "Go get more minorities to join Scouting."

Why didn't we think of that? 

In the situation I'm referring to, it is a trained ASM who is an Eagle, and hence SHOULD (emphasis) know better, and in fact does. But when it comes to his son, he thinks he knows best, and BSA is messed up. Don't get me started on that one.

 

Long story short, a lot of the problems started when his pack and troop folded, and he transferred over to us. Maybe that's why his pack and troop folded. sad thing is, the guy has a ton of knowledge, skills and abilities. he can be a vital asset to the troop, IF he would learn some patience and learn to stay out of the Scouts way.

 

I think I may use some military analogies on him he may understand. The Scouts are the "grunts" in the field doing what they are suppose to be doing, or doing their best to accomplish and learning from their mistakes, and he's being the REMF, who is screwing things up and frustrating the Scouts.

This guy should be put in charge of training the trainer (Scouts). Have him develop your TLT, teach it and then get out of the way. That's a great way to leverage his skills and enthusiasm BUT get him out of the Scouts' hair.

It's a tough question. Can you live with this or should those boys miss any kind scouting experience to save the integrity of scouting? It's nothing new, even Badon Powell and Hillcourt struggled with this frustration. 

 

Barry

Well, that's interesting because my family answered that question when we crossed over. We could have gone with the one of the mega troops (120+) in our area that use the "boy led" catch phrase like Nike uses "Just Do It", but we decided to join a smaller (50-75) person troop where the boys ran the show. Still went and did 90% of the fun stuff the mega troop did. In fact, we got in to some things they couldn't because they were too big.

During the last seven years my kid has had the opportunity to learn and grow. He's a real leader with strong planning and outdoor skills. Rather than have adults do stuff for him he's done them for himself. He's not felt he miss out on anything.

How do I know the difference. I look in Scouting Magazine and see my kid's Eagle project listed in their before/after section and just smile. The entire thing was planned soup to nuts by him. Pouring concrete, laying stone, ordering materials, seeking funding, managing Sweet 16 and all the other stuff...all him.

And then I look at the Eagle projects from the mega troop. A simple park bench in a park that looks like it came from a kit and assembled by 4 adults and 4 Scouts. I just sit back and smile.

So @@Krampus, how about gathering all of your trained 18 y.o. ASMs and asking them how many would feel like taking the Venturing YPT. ... Right now, or you'll drop them from the charter?

 

The DMV get's you decent drivers and vehicles, the IRS gets you armed forces, pictures of other planets, and payments on yesteryear's social programs.

What does Venturing YPT get you that Boy Scout YPT does not? Especially for a youth who's already been venturing for 4 years?

It gets you an adult who realizes that, once you turn 18, the world is not going to wipe your chin and give you a goodnight kiss every night.

It teaches them that everything worthwhile (DMV) or required (IRS) has a process. You must follow that process and endure a little pain in order to reap the benefits your time investment.

It teaches them that, as an adult, saying "Dude, your girlfriend is hot." to his nearly 18 Venturing friend is considered by adult YPT standards to be wrong...very wrong. Taking adult YPT welcomes him to being an adult and taking the adult courses...as silly as they are.

Now, if they wanted to argue the logic and reasoning behind taking IOLS when they are an Eagle Scout, staffed Rayado and summer camp, taught first year Scouts for seven years and have the outdoor skills of Les Stroud, well then, I am all ears. I agree that would be a total waste of time.

But 30 mins to click through some ridiculous scenarios and get a certificate? C'mon, they spend more time posting to Instagram than it would take to do YPT.

Better question...why should WE have to take a course that never changes having taken it 6-8 times over the last 12-16 years?

Yesterday a newly-young-adult venturer said "BSA has taken the fun out of being a young adult scouter."   I'd like to hear from others "in the trenches" with dual registered young adults. Maybe I'm just in a bubble of negativity.

 

FWIW this young man is "the go to guy" for instrumental back-up at his school musical. His older brothers are always welcome to drop by and pitch in there, nobody there asks them to fill out paperwork to serve along side these impressionable youth.

 

They simply don't have the patience for this sort of thing.

YPT is less than 30 mins. The application is five minutes to fill out and then give it to the membership person to bring to council. Med form, if not done, is 5 minutes to fill out.

If these kids have even filled out ONE college application they've spent 10 times the amount of time doing that than they will spend on getting "street legal" to be an adult on a BSA event.

They're going to get seriously disappointed when they hit those instant gratification relievers that are DMV and IRS.

I can't imagine that a boy doesn't grow even a little bit in the most adult run program. 

 

Growth will happen, but what kind of growth will occur?

Will the boys learn to plan for themselves? Nope.

Will the boys learn how to cook, clean or manage small and large groups? Nein.

Will they learn that, no matter what they forget or fail to bring, someone else will always be there to cover them? BINGO!!!

Those kids will have fun to be certain. Ask anyone if they'd rather have a vacation where everything is managed a la cruise ship style, or if they'd rather plan out and do everything themselves. They will take the former every time. NOW ask them under which system would they learn the most to eventually be self-sufficient, productive members of society. They will pick the latter...unless they are totally brainwashed Nanny-Staters.

Better to learn the dynamics of growth from the different styles of patrols so they can be applied appropriately to the circumstances of the environment and characteristics of the adults and scouts in the unit. 

 

I would agree. In the past, other SMs in our unit have changed the patrol construct to suit their vision and, presumably, how they *think* the unit will function in such a construct. They each claim their system (e.g., NSP, older boy/younger boy, mixed) has worked. In reality they all have not. Each has had their own successes and failures.

In our experience the NSP was great at getting Scouts to FC fast, however, the quality suffered despite having a great new Scout program. The down side was that this system created a "Been there, done that" mentality which caused Scouts to check out from 14-16. They had no idea what came next and how to work within an older boy unit.

Went to mixed patrols and it solved that issue. Guys were engaged longer in their timeline.

It never ceases to amaze me how many adults one comes across that think they know what they are doing and really haven't the foggiest idea that what they are doing is really bad for the boys. Self deception seems to be running rampant in certain parts of the county and BSA is no exception.

I could maybe see if the scout wasn't as active AND the unit had warned him well in advance he was below their active threshold. But waiting until the scout wants his workbook signed? That's poor management, guidance and advice on the adult's part.

@@Hedgehog is right on the instant coffee. Hmart has a great coffee section. Tons of freeze dried coffees at a fraction of the cost of Sbux.

So, how did you get the school in the winter? 

After third grade we went straight in to the adult world earning a living. But for those few years we walked 7 miles up hill both ways.

Just checking to see if they meant the historical traditional where the boys picked their friends or the contemporary traditional where the adults picked them.  If one were to actually get right down to the reality of most troops, there are very few "traditional" patrols out there because most troops have adult "guidance" influencing the processes somewhere along the way.  Some more than others.  It's just that by the very nature of BSA's program NSP Regular and Venturing seem to strongly suggest a layering of expertise based on experience and age.

Heck, we didn't do the B-P method when *I* was in Scouts. You were assigned a patrol and you liked it, made friends if you didn't know guys and didn't complain if you had problems.

Now we coddle and tuck them in at night...two deep, of course.

If BSA promotes New Scout Patrols, Regular Patrols and Venture Patrols, What is a Traditional Patrol?

They button on the right.

Axe yard protocol is a safety concern. At that point all due respect is put aside.

@@Krampus when he says, "I've got this Mr. Smith,..." seems to be more push aside Mr. Smith with no respect intended.

With all due respect to Mr. Smith, he's been told to stay out of the kids' hair unless it is a health or safety reason. He ought to know better than to be there in the first place. He ought to know better than to address the Scouts rather than addressing the PL or SPL. He ought to know better than to be over there without a second adult anyway.

When Mr. Smith starts respecting the SM, the troop rules, BSA policy and the youth leaders, Mr. Smith can gripe about not being addressed with the phrase "With all due respect...". 

Just sayin'.

Got 2 possibles.  Setting up formal meetings with them while continuing the search.

If you get close to the deadline without a CO, try another unit that has a CO that might be willing to "host" you temporarily. Had to do that after the 2013 membership debacle for 5 units in the area. They eventually found COs but they had temporary COs for 3-4 months while they sorted out a permanent home. District wasn't much help so the units had to do it on their own.

Ours is too far south for ya and already has three units or I'd offer up us has a source. If you need other help reach out.

Pretty good stuff. However I have never seen "Respectfully, sir, this is a boy's meeting."  work very well without the SM having the SPLs back. Adults will give up their  pseudo respect the moment they feel the subject of the interruption trumps the kid's junior title. True respect has to be earned even in a boy scout troop and that won't happen without a SM running interference for the SPL. 

 

The a Troop is a boy's size experience of the real world. But, the SM has to protect the frail Troop experience from the intrusive blunt real world for a boy to grow.

 

Barry

Yup, the SM and all the ASM need to help enforce this.

In our unit the boys use the phrase, "I have this Mr. Smith." and that's your cue to go get a cup of coffee or go whittle something (in the axe yard).

Update #2 - got the phone call from the COR last night.  It's official, the church will be closing it's doors and the UMC district will be selling the property.

 

The COR did say the Troop can keep the equipment when we move to another CO.

Got someone lined up?

Man ! ! How Active are your Lodges?

Troop Activities Vs Lodge Activities... These days around here it is 2 OA Activities..Winter Ordeal and Summer Ordeal...

Same Scouts go to Philmont and Jambo...as NOAC..most are all in OA..

Every OA Fundraisers last few years Boy Lead .... Canceled

The Other Major Fundraiser is Adults due to what we did...Haul Water Tanks on Trailers for a Major National Bike Ride...

They Canceled the Adult driven "Super Bowl Ribs" due to several issues.

Further east we do 4-6 ordeals (two in spring, 1-2 during the summer [i know, right], 2 in the fall and one at winter camp). Never seen an OA-only camp out. A few projects, not many. Maybe an ice cream social at council summer camp during the last week.