Krampus

Rattlers? Those ARE garden snakes in Texas.

Ah. The punishment will continue until morale improves.Can you go to a neighboring council? I have five within fifty miles

Easier, and more pleasurable, to go out of state for summer camp.

Also gets me out of staffing council stuff.

@@David CO

What about the Scout? Huh?

He's following the rules and the arbitration procedures laid out by BSA.

The adults are not.

So where's you sense of fair play for the youth?

Side Note: No the SM should NOT be on the same page when the BOR and TC are breaking BSA policy and rules.

I'm jealous. Ours was mostly indoors (new conf center they wanted to show off). Some outdoors. Already knew the skills and would have loved to "test out". Nothing new taught or learned.

Sounds like the program in the OP has promise...or at very least some exercise.

In the three councils around here, two schedule F2F YPT for one hour and one schedules it for 1.5 hrs. Yours is eight hours?

Yup. All day. Once a year it is offered. Maybe twice.

Am I the only one who finds the Scouting.org site to be worse and worse every time I visit?  

You are not the only one. And yes, it can get more confusing.

Be careful here... according to Youth Protection guidelines, you shouldn't have 11 year olds tenting with 17 year olds:

They're related.

That is interesting, I can't recall a single Eagle who thought they walked on water. Maybe it's my sunglasses; I wear polarized and sometimes they have a funny affect on things.

 

Barry

Before I took my current role, I spent some time looking around my district and the units and their leaders. The guys that ended up volunteering for stuff or simply jumped in and got the job done. Nearly all of these guys were Life Scouts that never made Eagle. It was really eye-opening.

In our unit the adults who are Eagles are all great guys. But like I said, 50% have your back no matter what. The other 50% go through the motions. Same has been my experience outside the unit.

Now, the Eagles our unit produces? All but 2 of them during my years here are top shelf kids. They are some of the most active, polite, go-getting Type A's I've ever met.

In some states, if you go to a council camp and you are an in-state unit, you need to do face-to-face YPT. 8 hours of the same 30 minutes you get online.

One reason why we camp out of state for summer camp. Not going to waste 8 hours doing a useless training session.

 Well, that's how I read it. Here are the actual rank requirements:

 

1. Be active in your troop, team, crew, or ship for a period of at least six months after you have achieved the rank of Life Scout.

Nothing about that says that they have to be active at the time of the EBOR or anything more than 6 months after becoming Life. 

"Active" is further defined by the active participation section of the GTA. One would think those two things would be linked somewhere so as to make it more obvious, but they are not...at least not officially anywhere I could find.

The phrase "be active in your troop" is not really clear. The GTA defines that by saying active means being registered, in good standing and meeting the unit's pre-defined requirements for defining active. Absent any unit pre-defined definition it gets a bit ambiguous...and then you have that alternate test.

Yes, you *can* have a Scout who makes Life at 13, is active (under the GTA definition) for 6 months and then goes silent until he's 17 when he wants his SMC and BOR for Eagle (or any rank really). Should he be counted as active? Sure, if he meets (or met) the GTA guideline of active for the duration required during the period of time in that rank.

Where I have seen this issue go south is when that level of activity is not continuous. I don't recall (may have missed it) if the GTA addresses that. I believe it does and says it does not have to be contiguous months of activity, just totaled.

I have said it before.  Scouting is not the largest or the most important program in our organization.  Scouting is simply not that popular.

To YOU!!!

To this kid it might be EVERYTHING!!

Forget even that for a moment. I fail to see why you wouldn't be in this kid's corner when these adults are obviously breaking the rules and policies of BSA. Since your a CO champion, why wouldn't you be there, with COR in tow, to discuss with these adults why they are not abiding by the charter agreement the CO signed up for?

Instead you berate the kids for "lawyering up" by going to council calling him defiant and disloyal. That's unreal...especially for someone who professes his backing of the CO. The CO signed an agreement with BSA, shouldn't they honor it, stand behind THEIR members when some adults go rogue?

Not seeing your justification for blaming the kid for using the tools there for him when the CO seems to be failing him, as well as the adult leaders this CO should be managing.

 

Even here on this forum, the Eagles kind of stand out. 

 

Sometimes for the wrong reasons. The best volunteers and SMs I have seen in my Scouting experiences have been guys who never made Eagle. They came close, but never made it. Their dedication now seems to be compensation on their part for that perceived "failure". They've been, by far, the best adults in our program.

Those guys who made Eagle? About 50% walk on water. The other 50% I wouldn't give you a cup of spit for.

Please don't get me wrong, Krampus, I have never regretted my decision to not pursue the award.  I don't consider it a "missed opportunity."  

 

I think you're being just a little bit extreme when you describe the advancement program as a  " kids life work."

Really? How would YOU feel if someone was breaking established rules to take away something YOU worked 7 years for? What if it was YOUR kid?

I would say that if a 5 year old worked until 17 (12 years) to accomplish something, that could be considered his "life's work" up to that point.

It is certainly something that, if taken away by some silly adults, might influence him the rest of his life. So yeah, it's a big deal.

I am a Den Leader in our pack and our den is moving to Webelos I.  I thought this would be a good course to take.  I have found the IOLS booklet pdf on the net and am going over it.  Any wisdom on how to prepare would be appreciated.  I know this can be a broad range of topics but just chime in with whatever you think might help a greenhorn.

 

Thanks in advance.

Really depends on how it is taught in your area and how hands-on it is. 

My advice to any leader is to learn what your boys will learn. For the first year Boy Scouts that's all the stuff from Scout to First Class. Learn it well and be able to explain how and why those skills are used. Use the EDGE method whenever possible.

Have fun with it.

 

I know that many people disagree with me.  They want the award any way they can get it.  If it means lawyer-ing up and going to council, so be it.

To borrow a phrase from another thread, with all due respect that's a load of crappola.

The kid is not" lawyering up". He's reporting a SEVERE violation of BSA rules -- as outlined in the cited section of the GTA -- to his council for them to take action.

These adults are mucking with what is essentially this kid's life work so far. If he's spent 5 years in Cubs and 7 years in Boy Scouts, that's nearly 3/4 of his life spent toward this goal. He's reporting this abuse of power because it's wrong. He's reporting this abuse of power so that it does not happen to him or anyone else. He's reporting this abuse of power because it is the RIGHT THING to do.

Sorry you didn't get your Eagle. I walked away from mine of my own volition. But don't let your story of missed opportunity and some misplaced sense of loyalty to the unit cloud your perspective. THESE ADULTS ARE WRONG! Period! When they became disloyal to this Scout and violated BSA rules they broke the covenant of loyalty that bound this Scout to that unit.

[insert ubiquitous June Cleaver reference]

Oh, how cute. You actually think that is the takeaway from the Venturing YPT course.

Suppose it's there, albeit implicitly, then, why isn't it in the Boy Scout YPT?

I've seen the youth YPT. It is not as strict or topical as the adult YPT. That's the point: To hammer home that a simple statement a youth might have made when he was 17, can get him in a boat load of trouble if uttered when he's 18.

If BSA really cares, why aren't mandatory certifications for Venturing's videos about date rape and sexual harassment required before accepting a youth application? You might be on to something. Maybe the YPT course should include a photo capture feature so the student can embed an instagram-ish picture of them taking the course on the certificate!

I am not going to defend BSA training. I would certainly put those issues in ANY Scout-based training for teens...especially coed Crews.

My point is that once you are 18 the Us considers you an adult. Why have 18 year old Crew members take a course designed for younger members and not the one all OTHER adults take?

If he gets in trouble the court system certainly won't think he's a minor. They will treat him as an adult. So should BSA.

Let's suppose for a moment that the boy succeeds in getting the council to overrule his unit and award him his eagle.  How would his unit react?

 

I would see it as an act of defiance and disloyalty to the unit. 

Really? You have adults violate half a dozen BSA policies here and you'd hold it against the Scout for going to council to arbitrate? 

The clock is ticking on this kid and rather than being helpful -- of God forbid, proactive -- the adults here breaking several rules just to flex their tiny little muscles. Please!

Where is the adult's loyalty to this Life Scout? Huh?

Yet, from the sounds of it, the adults in the unit are being (and has been)  disloyal and NOT helpful to the scout.  You don't add requirements at the last minute to screw someone who has done everything required and deny them something they have worked for over the last 6 to 7 years.

EXACTLY!!!!

Let's assume the adults are correct in their application of the "active participation" clause and there was an pre-established, well-documented troop activity level this Scout fell below. Shouldn't they (they adult leaders) have done their job and notified this kid that he's in jeopardy?

I am all for holding a Scout's feet to the fire, but you have to abide by the BSA rules and policies. Even when you (the adults) are in the right you need to think about the message you are sending if you dig in too deep. 

No argument, these adults are WAY off on this one. Cannot fathom anyone holding this against the Scout. Not in my unit!

In our unit we didn't use JASM for a while. Over the last ten years it has usually been given to former SPLs or other well-deserving older Scouts who really embodied the role of a youth leader. Every Scout who has gotten this honor has not only become more active in the program than they might have otherwise been, but have been leaders on which the SM could fully rely.

When we have young men turn 18 and stick around as ASMs we have a separate training class for them, specifically on why they cannot act and talk to the Scouts like they used to. We always make sure that whenever they are with Scouts that they are accompanied by an older adult ASM. Further, we introduce this new ASM as "Mr. FormerScout" so that the troop knows that he's not "Tim" anymore, but rather Mr. Smith.

This has worked for us and for our younger ASMs. 

How is this any different than the 14 year old Eagle that disappears the day after the ECOH? 

It isn't. 

Of course, in most units that are executing the program right, you don't have 14 year old Eagles and few Scouts ever disappear.

I suppose one needs to do this when they don't have functional POR's that will work with the NSP's, i.e. SPL, QM, ASPL, TG, Scribe and QM for starters.  That's six boys right there that have the time to work with the needs of the NSP and the Venture patrols.  Take them out of the picture because they don't function, one is correct, it is a recipe for disaster.

 

All the mixed patrols do is cover for the non-functioning POR's.

That's not true.

These are supplemental to the PL and other roles. Not every leader can be everywhere at once. These supplemental roles allow the younger Scouts to feel more connected. It puts more eyes on the situation. Why? Even your best PL is not going to see everything. Adding in these unofficial roles will help that.

Let's face it, technically NONE of these positions or roles should be necessary if everyone followed the Oath and Law all the time. But these are kids we are talking about, so redundancy is needed at times.

Ours as well, they don't just throw them into the patrol and saw see ya.  The leadership PL and ASPL have been working with them and they have another "seasoned" scout that is currently working on his project.  All these boys are fresh crossovers being led by the older boys, just not in their patrol. 

Yup, that's the way to do it. 

Another way is to assign mentors withing the patrol our from outside the patrol. That works well too.

Dumping young kids without a life line to 1) guys their own age, or 2) making sure the older kids are being respectful and helpful, is a recipe for disaster.

Is this for the SM's beer fund? 

 

Arrggh, I have no idea how this ended up in Issues & Politics.

Bees cause global warming and are anti-Catholic.

Was he active for 6 months after Life?

Registered and pays dues but that's been it after Life.  No Camporee or Summer Camp

But that's not how the "active participation" section reads (it is not just being active of 6 months while Life). You can have an active Life Scout at 14 who get Life at 13, puts in his six months of "activity" and then disappears until 17. Is he really "active" in the unit? Nope. Does the unit have an "active" level established? If so and he is not meeting it he's out of luck.

The GTA is pretty clear on what is done here. If the unit has not stated active level policy then he's within his rights to use the alternate test.