Krampus

@@Stosh, you are still giving credit for the APL doing his job. That's not a project, that's a role...and a role defined by BSA as not being worthy of a POR. You slice it pretty finely, but in the end you are giving the APL POR credit for doing nothing more than his job. That's not a project.

EDIT: Now if the kid does something like build an Instructor's Manual, creates a new service project (or leads one) or something substantially outside the role of an APL, then heck yeah, give him credit.

That's all the "Customer Satisfaction Survey" that you need. 

Actually, not really.

You get feedback from your Scouts using those methods. But successful units have done quite well using feedback surveys to query their parents, MBCs and other folks to get program ideas that might not otherwise filter up through the boy ranks. The ideas are then filtered back through the PLs and PLC as input from the adults. 

This is no different than sending Timmy home to get ideas on where to camp based on family camp outs or vacations. And since different people communicate differently, this is yet another means of collecting data, just like a parent meeting or paper survey.

I've seen units doing surveys all the time since I was a kid. They would poll parents and families on all sorts of issues (fund raising, dues increases, family camp out dates/locations, etc.). TC's do it all the time. This is a modern update to something that's been going on for decades.

Yah, always.  It's always a symptom, eh?   It just might not be da diagnosis.

 

I reckon a kid being "just off the rails" also isn't much of a diagnosis, eh?   More like da sort of story we make up in our heads to justify a response to a lad that's more based on our emotion than our thoughtful better nature.

 

For me, there are really only two times to remove a lad. 

 

One is when the troop lacks the capacity to deal with his issues.  This varies by troop, and it varies within a troop over time dependin' on the strength of the youth leaders and the adult leaders.   I personally like da rascals, eh?  Others, like this OP, perhaps not so much.

 

The second is when it's necessary pour encourager les autres.   Sometimes, especially in turn-around situations, yeh have to leave one body on da floor to let the rest of the lads know you're serious, and to let the good kids know you've got their backs. 

 

Both should be rare, eh?  The first because yeh should be havin' those conversations up front; the second because when things are runnin' well and youth leaders are doin' their job and adults have deeper relationships with kids yeh can steer by makin' small corrections.  Yeh don't need nuclear options.

 

Anyways, that's another reason why just goin' in and demandin' to see some punishment or to see one lad removed isn't good for a troop, eh?   Such things only work if they're done well and as part of a bigger picture.   Adults just punishin' kids sets up adult vs. kid dynamics that aren't healthy.  Just like Hogwarts, eh?

 

Beavah

Sorry, @@Beavah, it is not always a symptom either. What did Mama Beavah teach you about absolutes like "always"?

I will disagree with you on your two conditions. There are times that you have to remove a kid because of his potential to cause issues too. Part of making things safe for everyone is avoid issues before they happen. I am not about to take Powderkeg Jr., to Philmont and get in the back country with him. If he's poison at troop meetings, service projects and camp outs, imagine what he will do on a 75 mile trek in the back country.

One of the toughest things we as Scouters will ever have to do is give up on a kid for the good of the unit. It is a bad feeling knowing you have a kid that has a poor family life, no role models and a not-so-bright future, and you have to let him go because he's not able to be corralled. Everyone has a breaking point and for a Scouter to know when to give up on a Scout is one of the hardest things they will have to do...but it does happen even though we may not want to admit it to others...or ourselves.

If one is really serious about his whole issue of getting lost in the woods kind of thing,   As a hunter, noise and movement are more noticeable than color.  Whenever I hear a noise in the woods hunting I just stare in the general direction of the noise and somewhere in my vision something will move and give itself away.  A turkey hunter walking through the woods wearing a gilly suit might as well be wearing a neon sign.

Smell trumps sight and sound for many game too. They will smell you (if down wind) faster than hear you, hear you faster than see you and see you faster than you can react. Unless, of course, you are driving in West Virginia on Route 33 at 2am and the deer are on the side of the road....then those little buggers just jump at your car!!

Deer whistles anyone?

Explain to me now the APL working as the PL's right hand man, making sure everything is running smoothly for the PL's relationship  to the patrol members is any different than the SPL working as the PL's left hand man, making sure everything is running smoothly for the PL's relationship to the adults.  This is why I have no problem with it being a troop project.

 

A project is usually something that has a timeline, set of expectations and objectives with a defined outcome which is usually a tangible asset. It is meant to be something a Scout can do that otherwise would not be able to hold a POR. It is not meant to be a POR work around.

By giving project credit for what is essentially the APL's role anyway, you are just playing nuances with the whole project concept. I always applaud when someone can fill in the grey BSA likes to create with creative problem solving, but this is hard to overlook even by my liberal reading of certain standards.

It is believed that deer can distinguish blue from red, but not green from red, or orange from red.

@@Stosh, from the sounds of things this kid has been a pain of many years. The Patrol Method may not be the answer.

My son's are joining a very small troop, and I've just stepped up to be the Troop Membership Chair.  One of my prescribed functions is to "Have an annual customer satisfaction survey done with current Scout families".  I am unable to find an existing survey to distribute, and would prefer not reinventing the wheel.  Plus, I'm not sure what I would ask.

 

Also, I wonder how useful a survey would really be.  I'm thinking maybe this sort of thing might be better done as phone conversations, particularly to reach out to no-longer-active members, to get feedback about what would have kept them in the program.

 

YIS,

-Dan

We use Google Forms. Very easy to set up, tracks your data and you can import in to a spreadsheet. It is online so people can even go back and edit their responses if you like. It is better than SurveyMonkey because you can literally do whatever you want.

In regard to questions, check out what others have done in this area.

So, NO, I do not give POR credit for APL.  I give credit for SM-approved leadership projects.

 

I do tend to feel that by using the patrol method, that whatever leadership development one provides on the patrol level will eventually benefit the troop.  As I have noted in other comments with the exception of one time, the SPL's have been PL selected from the position of APL.   

 

@@Krampus There are two exceptions to this. 1) Being APL does not mean it is automatically approved for POR, only if the recommending PL feels the APL has functioned at a level worthy of a leadership project and with the support demonstrated in assisting the PL in working with the patrol would be capable of doing the same support by assisting the PL as SPL if called upon to do so.  And 2) It would not apply to the Eagle rank because the special leadership project  option is not available.

 

While it sounds like a real bending of the rules, it is not as easy as one thinks, but on a couple of occasions the PL's have gone to bat for their exceptional APL's who they thought deserved the credit for the work they did.  Keep it in mind that when the POR is checked off on advancement by the PL, the SM-Approved part must be addressed with the SM.  The PL always has a compelling case for such a request.

That's a pretty liberal reading of the leadership project's intent. I'm pretty certain they meant to award POR credit for an actual project with a defined role, objective and deliverable...and not give it to a kid exercising the patrol method.

As @@Stosh says, because of da CARD Act it's now easier to just use other card types, like debit cards or prepaid cards.   As far as I know, just about every bank/card company offers linked debit card and checking accounts for minors.   One of da legal absurdities is that although a scout of age 12 can have a bank account and debit card, he can't use online banking or change his personal information online until he's 13 because of da COPPA Act... even though da personal information on a bank account is private/confidential.  Yeh gotta love Congress.

Worse than that....because of Obamacare, youth 13 and over are now responsible for their medications under their insurance provider. At age 13 they must give their parents permission to see their records and order medication on their behalf. 

• Havin' PM MB kids all open bank accounts and get debit or credit cards.

Yes. We have them earn an amount of money (Second Class) and then request they open a savings account. We review how to open bank accounts, how to write checks and how to use debit cards. It is voluntary to actually open and use these accounts because that would be adding to the requirements.

 

• Usin' kids' accounts to pay dues or outing fees through electronic funds transfer to get parents payin' out of da loop and teach financial responsibility?

 

The boys can pay online or being a check or cash. Making payment is up to the Scout how he does it. We do not accept payments from parents in person.

 

• Givin' da SPL/ASPL/PL debit card or checking access to a troop or patrol account to make payments for trip expenses themselves.  Yeh could imagine somethin' like da treasurer transfers and amount equal to the PLC's 6-month budget into an account for them to use and manage themselves...

 

Can't. Requires a co-signer at our bank and since it is a business and not a personal account you must be 18 to be a signatory with purchasing rights.

 

• Takin' payments through Square or some other payment processor.

 

Yes, but we limit to PayPal via our SOAR/MyTroop website. Square and other such POS services usually take way too much of a commission on the sale. PayPal has been the lowest.

 

• Runnin' all da troop expenses on an REI Card to use da dividend to buy new gear every year .

 

The QM makes a purchase list and goes with the adult QM (who has the card) to make troop purchases. We don't buy new gear every year....where's the thriftiness in that? We do replace gear but only after the Scouts have repaired it too many times to make it useful.

Scouters who have been through trainin' for kids with special needs will also recognize this to be a symptom of kids with certain learning disabilities, eh? 

Not always. There's a distinct difference between someone with learning or social disabilities and kids that are just off the rails. To those trained in working with such kids it is easy to spot.

@@Stosh, where my cousin lives it's 1) Make noise to let the bears know where you are and risk the ire of the hunters, or 2) Not make noise and risk being a snack for the bears.

As for colors, one could be said that any loud color ANYTIME could be offensive, so we as Scouts should not wear them. I refuse to think that we need to let a thing like colors bother us. If I'm sitting on the Tooth of Time and I see a trek in orange neon below, it does not degrade from my enjoyment of the view or experience being there. If they are in the photo I either wait for them to leave or us PhotoShop to "shop" them out. I can even change their shirt color later if I want.

No bother.

I posted my last reply before I read Stosh's excellent post.

 

I am torn between the punishment vs. nurture choice. I agree that Scouting should be a positive and guiding influence for all boys, and especially for those that need that extra guidance and structure because of a deficit in their own lives. I was one of those boys.

 

So I am not wanting to immediately kick anyone out, with the possible exception of the #1 troublemaker who has been a toxic element for seven years now, since I first encountered him in Cubs. I know at least three families in our Cub pack who quit Scouting because of this kid, and the lack of response to his behavior. These families never returned to Scouting, and you can bet don't have much good to say about Scouting to anyone.

Well, as my old friend Spock used to say...

Seems like it is either this kid leaving or MANY kids leaving. As an SM that's a no brainer. We'd be sitting down with mom, dad and Scout to discuss his behavior and this probation. If he goes on a camp out, mom or dad have to go to....mostly to witness that we've dealt with him fairly. Give him six months. No foul language, no trouble, no bullying. One instance of any of those he's banned from the next outing and must demonstrate his changed nature during meetings and service projects. Second strike and he only allowed to attend meetings. Third strike, we have a meeting with district to discuss his disciplinary issues.

He will get the message before it comes to the second strike and leave.

In my troops the APL's are not just a patch wearing opportunity for no advancement. 

 

@@Stosh, so you give POR credit for APL?

I'd always go with bright colours when I'm in the mountains. While I know what I'm doing I have no intention of ever falling into the trap of thinking "it could never happen to me". If Mountain Rescue do ever need to come and find me I fully intend that they can see me and I don't blend into the Scottish mountainside. If being able to see me from 2 miles away interrupts anyone's solitude then sorry but tough....

Isn't green or brown a bright color for Brits?

Seems all you lot ever wear is black or shades of black.

I agree if a Patrol did their own campout--I would be doing backflips of happiness.

Who is to say these adults would give credit though? They'd likely argue it was not a troop activity.

I'd prefer excellent leave not trace skills. Follow the 7 principles of LNT and wear what you want. The color of your shirt is the last thing I care about.

I teach LNT and can say this is the first time this debate has ever come up.

In the past some on this board have argued that it is the Guide TSS and not the Rulebook Of Safe Scouting so therefor it is only a list of suggestions.

Actually, the preface is pretty clear...it is the rule book of safe scouting, as well as a citation noting that leaders must know, review and/or be aware of all other BSA rules, policies or local/national laws and policies.

"Guide" is merely a word to connote a compendium of the rules and/or where to look.

I don't think there is a need for the over-the-top Eagle ceremonies.    The award speaks for itself.

I had a "coronation". Was, and still is the troop custom. If I had to do it over again I would have done it attached to a troop COH. Less work, and would have been just as meaningful to have the whole troop there. 

Has been our troop's custom until we started to have so many during the year that, when you include all other troop events, the leaders literally had 8-10 weekends a year left that DIDN'T have a Scout event. So we went to having them co-mingled with the regular COHs. MUCH better format for a number of reasons.

Guys can still have the "coronation" by themselves if they want, BUT the troop leaders' availability may not be guaranteed.

Regarding the SM, it's a delicate situation. He's been involved with the troop over 40 years, has been SM for over 20, with a break when the troop died, and singlehandedly restarted the troop. Nobody has the heart to tell him "NO MORE" including his wife, doctor etc.

I've seen several units in this situation. When I became SM I swore to myself I would make the unit my priority, so that its health (and mine) were the priority. In my area when the long-serving SM or CC don't know when to step down, step aside or change how things are done, that hurts the unit.

For some, their entire reason for being is the unit. That's not healthy in the long run....not for the leader or the unit.

 

I said you need to have the talk early and timely.  And, it needs to be blunt.  "These are the boundaries of scouting.  Either participate within those boundaries or find another place to spend your time."

 

My experience is also that the scouts either shape up or leave on their own.  It's the blunt conversation that is critical.

Agree 100%. Not something you wait to see what happens. Someone could get hurt.

Address quickly, calmly, rationally and discretely (but not in clandestine manner).

IMHO, the statement "If any kid needs scouting, he does." is a big big big red flag.  Scout leaders are not trained as therapists and need to trust the scouts to be own their own working with each other.  

Yeah, that's a red flag statement for me too. That is usually code for no/bad father, no/bad mother, family issues (divorce, abuse, etc), poor (can't afford to do yxz) or something else going on in the kid's life where Boy Scouts would help him escape, learn or grow.

But there's usually a double-edged sword that goes along with a kid in these circumstances. In my experience, about half have turned out to be productive Scouts. The other half have become issues for us.

While you're right that Scouters are volunteers and may not have the training or time or energy to help such kids, we at least owe them one swing at the plate before we toss up our hands. It's a very difficult call for a Scouter to make. I've found that kids like this, once "called out" (nicely, of course) and put on a behavior plan, usually either calm down or leave.

I find that the longer a scout stays in the program, the more they retain regardless of the rank. An 18 year old FC scout has more going for him, than a 14 year old "eagle" that bails after his ECOH.

Have one of those now. He's a gem of a kid. Will never make Eagle but is still in the program.

Only had one 15 year old Eagle take the bling and run. To this day he is my biggest regret in 15 years.

So I always tell folks who are new to any community that they should wait a year or so to truly figure things out before they start tryin' to fix things or pull out the "we did it differently in my old pack/troop". 

I'm at the other end of the spectrum.

I like to know what people's first impressions are because they are usually spot on. I like to know what good ideas people have to change things, or keep doing things. I have found that, if left too long, those good ideas that people initially have go away and never get implemented. That initial reaction and suggestion can sometimes be MORE helpful than one left to simmer for two years.

Of course, you get the other end of the spectrum where people make suggestions that obviously won't work. Would two years of waiting to offer that advice has helped them understand? Sure. But why wait? They are adult enough to learn fast that their idea wouldn't work and why. Saves them two years of watching and the learn faster.