WWBPD

OGE - yea, I don't know why Mr. White calls B-P his national hero, I guessed that Mr. White must be from England. As far as the living heros of scouting you mentioned - what have they done to promote scouting to the nation lately, other than just being?

I would like to better understand why - Baden-Powell instructs us, as scouting leaders, to use our ingenuity, in harmony with the local conditions, and to focus on the objectives of Scouting (rather than focusing on the details and steps of a defined program) and yet, so many others on this thread believe that B-P must be just plain wrong. If B-P is wrong about that, then what else was he wrong about. Could the foundations of scouting that he founded based on error. I don't think so...Scouters, follow the lead of B-P...your creativity and ingenuity is what scouting was founded on and what your unit needs.

WWBPD

Lest we forget the words of Baden-Powell (who by the way Mr. White considers the sole national hero of Scouting) in the foreword to Aids to Scoutmastership:

"So most of these pages will be taken up with the objects of the steps rather than with the details of the steps themselves. These can be filled in by the learner according to his OWN INGENUITY, and in harmony with the LOCAL CONDITIONS under which he is working."

Wow...you mean B-P promotes individual ingenuity in harmony with local conditions, over the details of the steps themselves. What kind of scouting hero is that? Could B-P be suggesting that we not get bogged down in following the details of a definite program and possibly be a little creative. Way to be B-P...way to be. That's why your my hero!

DW,

WELLsaid and WELcome to the Forum.

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

DW,

WELLsaid and WELcome to the Forum.

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

I would venture to say that not a single scout in your unit can name either the BSA Chief Scout Executive or your Council executive...take a poll at your next meeting. Worse, most of you could not do it either without looking it up. Why?...because the execs are businessmen who care more about the numbers (enrollments and dollars) and protecting what they have (from lawsuits) then about providing visible leadership at the national level, leadership that creates a sense of national excitement and pride about scouting. What we have now is men of reaction, not action, and the result is that, at the national level, scouting has suffered (certainly individual units, districts or councils may be an exception). As Scouters, we all do the very best we can recruiting and encouraging retention, trying to bring the program to life. Wouldn't it be nice if national supported us in this endeavor with a national on-going campaign that promoted scouting, that created pride among all its members, that produced real growth in numbers, that ensured that scouting will not become irrelevant in a post-modern society.

Others have said -

"All the organization, defining, and "norming" was done 100 years ago; we're now sustaining (or trying to, anyway)."

"The fact of the matter is that there is not much ANYONE can do today to dramatically "revolutionize" the program for the better."

So...I guess we are all in maintenance mode now. It is what it is. Can't get any better. Sounds like a defeatist attitude...sounds like a buggy manufacturer at the beginning of the 20th century. The 21st century will define scouting as either just a mere sentiment of a bygone era or as a vibrant and dynamic youth program that produces citizens of character. We need visionaries to do that, not just a bunch of guys trying to figure out if the first sentence of page 63 of the Guide to Safe Scouting should be bolded or not.

Somewhat related question,

Scout has been nominated to OA by scoutmaster for each of the past four years. Scout has been elected for OA by troop in each of the past four years. Scout has not participated in an Ordeal in any year - does not appear to have any interest in OA. Is SM within his authority to not nominate scout for a fifth year even though other tests are met? Suppose the troop has adopted a policy to that effect that is communicated to all beforehand?

We have a policy to this effect in order to provide some motivation for an elected scout to complete his Ordeal. Are we wrong?

Absolutely an approvable eagle project. More than just scouts will benefit...there are others that enjoy orienteering. As long as the county sees the benefit, should be no problem.

We are a 'gypsy troop' - go to a different camp every year because that's the way we like it. Best camp in the last five years is Camp Barton in Ithaca NY (Baden-Powell Council). The best combination of program, staff, food, facilities, and admin we have experienced. And the waterfall is spectacular. Its small but a great stay especially for younger scouts.

Baden-Powell, Ernst Thompson Seton, Dan Beard, Bill Hillcourt, Juliet Low...where have all our hero's gone? They are all dead.

Now I know each of you can probably think of a scouting 'hero' that you work with on a regular basis, and you yourself may be considered a 'hero' by others (and by yourself, in some cases), but what about a nationally recognized scouting 'hero'. Can you think of anybody? National BSA seems to be run by administrators, not visionaries.

Baseball needed Babe Ruth, basketball needed Michael Jordan, our country needed John Glenn...to take us to new heights.

From a national point of view, scouting is in the doldrums. Flat membership levels, attacks from all kinds of groups, funding issues, etc. Is it time for a national scouting 'hero' that can provide effective leadership and vision to take us all to new heights? A hero with charisma, vision and enthusiasm that can be the visible standard bearer to all.

Now, I know some of you will discount this that its the scouting ideals that we need to focus on..and not an individual. But democracy was just an idea that went nowhere without the vision and leadership of Adams, Jefferson and Madison, and later reinforced by Reagan, Walesa, Gorbachev. Certainly, it takes many to promote a movement but we all need to know where we are going as part of that moving.

What say you? Any volunteers?

Sounds like symptoms of the bigger problem, which is the Scoutmaster has been allowed too much authority in the decision making processes of the Troop. The PLC and the Committee both need to reign him in on these two points (BOR violations and summer camp selection). It should be the Committee's job to do this (moreso than the PLC - I expect he would roll right over the PLC). CC and advancement chair need to point out the violation and that it will no longer be allowed - if he wants to fight them about it then we will have to let the council mediate. The summer camp issue has arisen because he probably puts in for next year before leaving the camp this year, and that all occurs before your planning for the next calendar year - you end up getting stuck. Again, if the majority of the scouts want to go somewhere else this needs to be communicated to the SM and he should be told not to make reservations in the future.

Thanks for the 2 thumbs up.

They were wearing real Cub Scout uniforms?? I seem to recall that the BSA had refused to allow its official licensed uniforms to be used for commercial purposes sometime in the 1970s or 80s, unless they had some input rights to the script. I though Disney's Follow Me Boys was the last movie to portray the real uniforms.

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

Mr. Invincible,

I know nothing about the program in Hong Kong but here in the US, requirements cannot be added beyond what is stated. I would suggest you sit down with the SL and discuss it. Don't be accusatory, you just want to express your feeling that you are being singled out for more work than others and you want to undertsand why that may be. Be friendly and courteous and I bet your SL will back-off in the future. It may be that your SL (is that an adult or scout?) thinks very highly of you and he wants to see you put forth greater effort because you can do it. Don't let it discourage you...you are learning more valuable lessons for life than just a badge.

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

Thanks all. I was thinking more about the big leagues where the fan behavior is especially a problem. We did do a minor league baseball game as a troop outing halfway through a summer camp week (the Pulaski Rangers a few miles from the Blue Ridge Mountains Scout Reservation). Our troop represented about half of the total attendance - we had a great time and there were plenty of foul balls.

When does the 'Program' not work? Look in the mirror. When it causes dedicated scouters like yourselves to spend a hundred hours debating and slamming each other over a nonsensical question. That is time that could have been spent changing a boy's life and transforming the 'Program' from the perfect world of paper to real-life, with all of its human imperfections. Those hours are gone and wasted, but there is still time. Get out from behind your computers and work with a scout. Every hour counts and too many have been wasted here.

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

When does the 'Program' not work? Look in the mirror. When it causes dedicated scouters like yourselves to spend a hundred hours debating and slamming each other over a nonsensical question. That is time that could have been spent changing a boy's life and transforming the 'Program' from the perfect world of paper to real-life, with all of its human imperfections. Those hours are gone and wasted, but there is still time. Get out from behind your computers and work with a scout. Every hour counts and too many have been wasted here.

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

Communication is key. The more the better. We use:

Long-term communication (1 month or more)

Annual Calendar

Monthly newsletter

Website

Flyers describing upcoming trips

Annual parent meeting (not comm meeting)

Bulletin board at meeting place

Short-term communication (less than 1 month)

Troop meeting announcements

E-mails (yahoo groups)

Phone trees

Too many hands in the bowl can cause significant problems - misinformation, duplication of effort, confusion of where to get information. Unless it is organized and consistent, things can break down to the point that everyone thinks they are an information source whether they know the details or not.

I would suggest a Communications Coordinator for your Committee (could be the Troop Secretary) that works with different folks to produce newsletter, website, flyers, etc - the long range stuff. The coordinator could also mentor some of the junior leaders - e.g., scribe and historian who play a role in communications. The short term communication is best left to the uniformed leaders (scouts and SM staff).

But no matter how much you put out there...some people will not read it or listen to it.

Merit badge requirements come and go. Anybody can find something objectionable about just about any requirement of any merit badge...if they are so inclined. Of course, there are some pretty stupid things in a lot of the requirements and if we were asked to write a merit badge booklet, I am sure we each could do so much better and it would be survive the critique of this esteemed panel (I for one have written our troop's underground Farting Merit Badge - a true labor of love). Lets stop arguing about it and get the kids outside and working on achieving these predetermined, objective goals -whatever they may be.

WWBPD

Deut 23:13

Thanks TXeagle!

I hope ICLU (Iraqi Civil Liberties Union) doesn't find out about this.

Any councils, districts, units out there doing anything big service related to help Iraqi youth?

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

Cubmaster,

As a CM and SM I have had to step into numerous parents issues over the years. You do need to meet with the DL and ADL to sort this out as soon as possible, find out the real issues (which are never what they appear to be), and figure out how to make this work for everybody. It may be that the DL is so fed up that he is willing to step aside or maybe work in a different capacity (sounds like he could be a good CMA). It is so early in the year and in the Tigers' scouting careers that this should be a salvagable situation if it is addressed in a straight forward, honest and compassionate manner with the goal of 'what can we do to make sure your child has a scouting experience." Right now it just sounds like everybody is frustrated, which is typical for new Tiger leaders that have no experience with the program. It sounds like things DL may have been a little too gung-ho (weekly meetings for Tigers? motivated to ge achievements done) and folks were a little put off by that. The only way to correct the situation is to listen and understand, and use your wisdom (and that of your committee) to figure out how everyone can benefit. Let us know how the meeting goes.

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

NewCubDad,

Just to echo what others have said...I was in the exact same position a decade ago. By focusing on your den and making it right for them other dens will notice and they will begin taking cues from you ...sounds like you will eventually be the cubmaster...your concern for the kids shows through and it would be wrong not to share your enthusiasm with as many young scouts as possible.

Be somewhat careful about handing out your own den awards and making it too spectaular. I did the same thing after getting the old boring cubmaster's approval and the stuff hit the fan when it was clear to the pack that a better way and a more fun time could be had. He resented being "shown up" right up until the time he retired early at the end of the year and I was appointed CM.

These things have a way of working out in the end. Packs are generally a reflection of the handful of adult leaders that run them. Your willingness to spend time to get trained, search for ideas, seek the involvement of others, and create a fun environment is just what your (and all) packs need. Good luck and welcome to scouting!!

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

Thanks Boleta. The delays have been a part of our district for at least 10 years now. I think the problem is that the DAC has been hammered about it so many times that they have 'dug their heels in' and are no longer looking for help, advice or changes. DAC chairman and the Eagle Project Coordinator have been in their roles for over ten years now and seem very content in the delays. My understanding is that folks have tried to get Council to address but that has gone nowhere. But your 'week or two' to review sounds like heaven to me and gives me hope.

Patience...Patience...Homosexuals can't reproduce and so they will be unable to pass on their deviant values and behavior to a new generation in any great numbers. The 'homosexual lifestyle' fad fueled by the sexual revolution of the 1960s and hammered by the AIDs epidemic of the past two decades will slowly die off as they die off. Oh, there will always be some hanging around, but eventually they will go back into the closet. Unfortunately, you must suffer them during your lifetime...but your great granchildren will not.

I am curious..what is the BSA policy on transgenders?

I am sure you have all seen the deplorable conduct from both players and fans at the Pistons-Pacers game by now. That reminds me of the three times I have gone to pro sports games as part of a council 'Scout Night'.

First Time - Indoor Soccer. Both benches emptied onto the field, major altercations, 45 minute delay in game. Scouts and adults sat dumbfounded. At the next scout meeting we had to put on skits demonstrating good sportsmanship in order to counteract what we saw.

Second Time - Major League Baseball Game. Again all players on the field for a fight. Pitchers throwing at batters. I think both managers were ejected before the night was over.

Third Time - Major League Baseball Game. No problems on the field, just in the stands. Belligerent drunks - couple of tussles - foul language - I am sure you all have seen that.

In each instance there was well over 1,000 scouts and leaders in attendance representing anywhere from 5 - 25% of the audience.

Three strikes - pro sports are out for our unit.

Any similar experiences out there? Does your unit attend pro sports events? Do your councils sponsor 'Scout Night' at a pro sports event? Are the ticket prices on such nights discounted enough to warrant going? Do you consider it a 'worthwhile' activity given the costs and the potential for mayhem recently demonstrated?

WWBPD

Deut. 23:13

Rip,

Its a jacket...technically not part of the uniform. Your choice. Personally I would go with the red (with green pants its better to look like a Christmas decoration than...I really can't think of anything that is olive green and royal blue).

Fscouter

I have often wondered, what happens when a boy comes to half the meetings? Do they pay half the dues of someone who comes to every meeting? Or are they supposed to make it up at their next meeting? What if they don't make up for absences? In a large troop, doesn't this create a tracking nightmare for someone?