Weekender

DE,

The Pants are Camo (Forest) the boonies are OD green. They were an outstanding purchase...probably the most utilitarian cover I've ever seen. We got them for $9 each through a catalog company (First Cav I think?).

KS,

Heat si always an issue here in the southwest but we make sure everyone drinks lots and lots and LOTS of water. That's pretty much the motto for the camps in this area.

We did get some comments on the BDU pants...as always they were both good and bad. The way I see it, since the boys are not "required" by BSA policy to wear the scout pants the fact that they all have decided to wear the same style pants works for me. Some troops wear blue jeans and shirts we wear BDU pants and shirts. By policy the boys could just wear a kneckerchief or wear no part of the uniform at all. We have found that our way instills esprit de corps. Our younger boys jumped right in on the good things our older boys were doing and were very proud to be identified with them.

Just want to give a report on our S-Camp experience this year. We attended camp at Wehinahpay Mountain in southwest New Mexico. We were fairly well south of any fires. Camp was pretty good, the area is gorgeous, could have used bigger helpings at the mess hall. I liked having a church service each morning. The C.O.P.E. program and the mountain biking was great for the older boys. The first year program was seriously lacking. We pulled our boys out in favor of merit badge classes and will teach them there first year skills ourselves. The weather was very nice...we even got a little rain (Praise God). Our boys, in their BDU pants, Troop T-Shirts, and boonie camps looked sharper than any other troop there. We had worked with the boys on looking good in formation and taking pride in their appearence. We got a lot of questions about how we get our boys to be so disciplined and look sharp...Our response was "instill some esprit de corps, point them in the right direction and watch them go."

The first night of camp the SPL decided he didn't care for the diminutive flagpole in our site. Within 3 hours we had a lashed 50 foot pole that the ranger asked us to leave in place when we left because he said it was the best one in camp. We'll have stories for months from this camp and all who attended are looking forward to whatever we do next year. We're considering Lost Pines in East Texas for the younger boys (we went there last year...Great first year program) and northern tier high adventure camp for the older guys.

Hope your S_Camp was great.

Give us a report when you get a few minutes.(This message has been edited by Weekender)

As far as I am concerned, the writings of people like DedicatedDad and yaworski ultimately advance the cause of change in the policy, by making the pro-policy position look ridiculous. For every one of us who posts on this topic, there are maybe 30, 40 or more people who read the forum regularly but do not post on this subject. Our minds are not going to be changed by reading a post from the "other side," but those of the "silent majority" may be changed.

Well NJ, We finally have something to agree on. I think others do read these posts and that they may be influenced by our positions and the tone of our posts. (Sorry, but our agreement has to end here)

Homosexuality is a sin of self-indulgence and disobedience toward God. It is selfishness in the extreme. It's "I'm going to do what I want because I want to and I don't care if it is right or wrong, moral or immoral, and if you try to tell me I shouldn't then you're a bigot"

But I'm glad we can at least agree on the one thing.

If it were me and the committee came and asked me to step down then I would do so. Otherwise, stay till October and step down regardless of the status of the search (or lack there of) for a new SM.

As far as the campout, I'm big on doing whatever you can to make it work but when it comes to safety you, as scoutmaster, have to be able to pull the plug. I think your first mistake was giving into pressure from the committee. I think I would have told them that if they wanted the campout to go then they would have to do it themselves. I bet none would have done it. I've found that some of the most vocal people are the ones that give the least effort to the troop. If the one father has a problem with you being there tell him to have the committee ask you for your resignation and you will gladly step aside.

As the tour leader at the camp, you had both the right and the responsibility to make a judgement call on safety and call the campout if necessary. I don't think a vote was the way to go. What would you have done if they voted to stay when you knew it wasn't safe?

Keep doing your best and have your bags packed in September. Maybe you should ask the committee to consider the father who seems to know everything for the vacant SM slot. Disappear at least until January, if your're there they will turn to you and make the new scoutmaster's job more difficult.

A worthy sentiment, though as a wise man once said to me: "Perhaps, in the interests of clarity, we should amend it to: 'Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.' People do seem to miss the point sometimes."

VH_50,

No Offense, but I think God had it right. Love you neighbor as yourself.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Our troop says a prayer to end every meeting. We say grace before every meal. And we have a Sunday Service on every campout. It is somewhat easier for us in that all of our familiies at the moment are Christians. I guess if a parent brings their child to a meeting and doesn't like the idea of prayer they just don't come back. I'm sure there are other troops in town that don't take duty to God and reverence as seriously. If a family is happier there then I wish them well.

"just treat me like you would like to be treated"

Hmmmm.......................

OH YEAH!!!

Now I remember where I've seen that statement before.

It seems more like social engineering than socials studies. We were fed up by third grade and homeschooling by 4th. I know homeschool is not the answer for everyone but for those who are considering it...it was THE best thing we have EVER done about our childrens education.(This message has been edited by Weekender)

Never done the scoutmaster changeover. Ours has been there more than 30 years. However, we base our SPL changeover on the military's change of command ceremony. Old ASPL/SPL on one side new on the other. Separated by maybe 6 or 7 feet. Troop flag close by. SM says a few words about the outgoing boys and a few about the incoming and his expectations and makes any presentations (I make a certificate of approeciation and a letter of reference for the outgoing SPL and present them at that time). Then, old ASPL removes troop flag from holder and passes to outgoing SPL. Old SPL hands to new SPL and while both are hold ing it gives congrats or wishes good luck etc. New SPL hands flag to new ASPL who replaces it in the flag stand. Normally in the military the old commander would make a short speach prior to the flag exchange thanking his troop and wishing them well. The new commander would make a short speach after the exchange letting his new command know his thoughts, feelings, and expectations for the future. The whole event normally takes about 15-20 minutes in the military or about 5-10 for the SPL's.

Mike,

I fought a similar battle on wear of the uniform in the last year or so. That, coupled with trying to bring our activities and advancement in line with the BSA program. When It came to uniforms I had three boys who just didn't want to get with the program. Of those three, 1 left, 2 changed, and the troop is better for it. I would have liked to have kept all fo them but the one that left had problems with my style in general and was interested in play time but not in the program.

Bottom line for me, we need to build a program that teaches the boys character. Some boys will be attracted to it and others will be repelled but the program is what those who stick with it come for. Stick to your guns!! You'll lose a boy once in a while no matter what you do. Take comfort in the fact that the ones you lose will go because they aren't ready for a good program not because the program wasn't ready for them. It's sad to lose a scout but it's sadder to lose him because we failed to provide the promise.

Teach them well, keep their feet to the fire...They're next in line to take over the world!

Dan,

Thanks for the info. Do you have a link to the source doc. One of our new dads designs websites for a living and has started work on ours. I would like to refer him to the policy doc.

Weekender

And all God's people said...AMEN

Twin_wasp Welcome to the forum.

You write, Personally, I advocate leaving it up to the sponsor and the troop committee. Today a committee can reject a volunteer because he is not of their religion. I think scouting would be better served if committees were free to accept or reject gays, with national and the council staying out of it. I am also all in favor of rules about what can and cannot be discussed with the boys.

So if NAMBLA were to somehow get control of a troop committee they should be able to make the decision that having sex with all the scouts was acceptable? Yes, that's an extreme, but there have to be some decisions about scouting standards that remain at the national level if this is to remain a national organization. The troop belongs to the CO but the program does not. Whether you agree or disagree with the BSA dicision about homosexuality, if you are a scouter, you have agreed to uphold it. Moral character IS what scouting is about and I applaud the BSA for their stand.

Sctmom says, Having the legal right to do something does NOT make it the RIGHT thing to do. I have the legal right to drink myself to stupor in my home even in front of my child, but I dont believe it is the RIGHT thing to do.

You're right! You also have a legal right to believe that homosexuality is not a sin and that the BSA is bigoted for choosing to protect its youth from from the influence of a sinful lifestyle...But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

This isn't going to help get the badges unstuct but there is a product called stitch witchery which is very handy. It comes in a role like tape. You cut a few inches and put it between the shirt and patch. Iron with steam and let dry and it will hold fairly well. I would still recommend putting a few stiches through the patch. This stuff works great for hems and cuffs and will stand up to washing.

Agreed, The answer to your question is YES!

G'Day

TJHammer,

I'm confused...you say...My point is, you accuse me of picking and choosing what parts of the Bible I want to believe or ignore. In fact, I don't really believe ANY part of the Bible is infallible, I only believe in the foundational teachings of Christ.

If you don't beleive in the Bible's infalibility how do you know what the "foundational teachings of Christ" are? Why would you even beleive in the existance of Christ? If the Bible has it wrong, where have you found the correct information on which you base your philosophy? Either the Bible is right or it is wrong! If it is right then it must all be right. If it is wrong in any sense then it is a useless waste of paper. All I ask is that if you (used in the general sense) don't beleive in it then don't try to use it's contents to support you own belief system.

Ed,

You may have already done this but if not maybe bringing the issue up at the roundtable could help. If enough people, who are aware of the lack of any such national policy, put pressure on the council perhaps they would change their position.

Weekender

Bob White,

Just a point of clarification if you would. Even though the green tie is no longer sold, aren't all old official uniform items still authorized? My understanding was that once an item become part of the official uniform that item could always be worn.

Thanks

Weekender

OK, so Im not new to scouting but this post deals with training new folks andthis category seemed lonely.

This post is going to be a little long so please bear with me and accept my apology in advance. My oldest son and I joined our current troop about 3 years ago. He was finishing 2nd year Webelos and I was wood badge trained (Eagle SR-152). The Scoutmaster had been with the troop for 30+ years. The troop consisted of mostly 12-13 year olds as they had not been actively recruiting. My son was the only new boy that year and the next new boy was my other son last year. I was assigned to Korea in between so I couldnt get on the recruiting issue. This year we were able to pull in 8 new boys. Unfortunately one of them only came to one meeting and his mother decided it was too much trouble. So here we are. Our Scoutmaster has taken a smaller and smaller role in the troop (while I was in Korea he indicated his desire to step out of that job). I have become the defacto SM. I have 2-3 dads of the older scouts who are willing to help some but are neither trained nor active unless asked. I have one of the older dads that is trying to help and doing quite a bit but his son seems to be fading a bit so I dont know how long I will have him. I have a few moms but other than my wife, who is functioning as treasurer, none is particularly active (wife used to be an owl-SR-105). I have four new dads and one new grandad (none trained).

Hes what Ive done so far. I went over to the council office and acquired a copy of fast start. Everyone is too busy to sit down and watch it together so I have started the copy around the leaders. Ive asked that each adult take the tape for a week and then pass it on to the next. Id like to see it move faster but dont see anyway to make that happen short of hand carrying it from one to the next myself. Im hoping that once they have seen the video they will get the bug and be anxious for more training. I want to get a functioning committee (we havent really had one yet) and I want to turn more and more of the operations over to the older boys. In a lot of ways they are still being treated as Webelos and I while I want to move the running of the troop to them, I dont want to just drop it on them. One of my next steps is to develop a camping trip preparation template and train the older scouts how to use it.

Heres my question. I want this troop running the BSA way. So, where do I go from here? Our unit commissioner program is not really much of an option and the council offers little if any help. I figure Ill be lucky to get 4-5 adults willing to do the committee functions (none who have been trained). I believe Ill have 2-3 good ASMs willing to learn and run the program properly. Weve got great potential but I need to know what training to push for and in what orderI dont want to kill these new guys but I want to get them up to speed as quickly as possible. Our older scouts had JLT about 2-3 years ago but were never really put in a position to use what they learned. So we will probably need to give them some youth specific training along with the training we are giving the adults. The parents of the older scouts figure they have done their share at this point and their kids are going to get eagle and move on. They dont think they should have to get any training. I disagree and need to find a way to incorporate training so they get it just because they are present.

Bottom Line: What training packages/in what order/over what period of time/with what goals for changing the way we are currently running the troop?

Thanks

Weekender

I can't fault my local United Way for what they have done, though I wish they hadn't done it. Better to keep funding the BSA and retain some leverage to eventually overturn this misguided policy from within.

I won't fault them either...but they are the misguided ones.

Wasn't it one of the more liberal members of the forum who decried the thought of religeous organizations having too much influence on scout policy. Given the choice of who "steers us with money" I vote for the church over the UW.

I'm not saying the UW is doing bad things. But if they object to the BSA upholding moral standards then they are misguided.

On the bright side I guess this means the BSA doesn't have to hold off on their fundraising while the UW runs their's. Personally I would blitz the area about two weeks before the UW kicks off their campaign.(This message has been edited by Weekender)(This message has been edited by Weekender)

I'd be willing to bet that this subject has not been thoroughly discussed with the SM. I would suggest (since you're leaving the troop anyway) that you sit down and tactfully tell the SM that you think he may be misinterpreting the goal of the SMC. Explain what it is supposed to be and have the documentation to back it up (show him the the advancment manual). It may not do a bit of good, but it may turn him on a dime if he is a teachable SM.

It sounds like your SM is a bit new to the SM job. I know when I first started I was unsure of what was best for the troop. Have the SM and ASMs beed to leader training? If not, they need to go. As others have said, Patrol organization can take many forms and in some troops you'll find a combination of forms. All forms have pros and cons. It comes down to what works best for your troop.

I guess I am very old school. I would talk to the parents to make sure there is no medical reason for what is happening. If there is not, I would council the scout and let him know that what he did went against the principles of scouting and that it would not be tolorated. Not even once more. Our troop has in place a code of conduct that while it does not specify what is and is not allowed it does specify what actions will occur of a scout fails to conduct himself in a scout-like fashion. These actions run from a parent/scoutmaster/scout conference to permenent expolsion fromt he troop. In 40 years the current SM has only had to ask one scout to leave an dnot come back.

I've been in a troop where the actions of one scout drove several good kids away before the scout was brought back into line. Given the choice of losing one or losing several because of the one I lean toward saving the many.

If this is a varifiable medical problem then it is a different issue altogether.