Weekender

I have a bit of heartburn over the first class progression in our council and from what I have heard the problem is not just local. One of our local scoutmasters, for whom I have a great deal of respect, refused to send several boys before the board he felt were not ready. As scoutmaster, he refused to sign off the scoutmaster review and without that the board would not promote. He did this with several boys who went through our council's first class quest program after he (the Scoutmaster) visited the training area and became very disappointed in how training was (or more accurately, wasn't) being conducted. I agree that a BoR should not be a review or retest of everything a scout has done to make rank. I think it is the job of the scoutmaster not to send boys up for rank review if he is not 100 percent comfortable with a specific scout making the next rank.

In this case, the scoutmaster, his assistants, and the PLC retrained (and I use the prefix "re" loosely) the new scouts and made sure they knew what they should. Then they sent them to the board where they passed with flying colors.

BTW: I doubt anyone who has read any of my previous comments is unaware of my position on this poll question but just so there is no misunderstanding. I voted that I would leave.

OGE,

This was a nice attempt. I appreciate your dedication to the program. I would have been very interested to see what BOY SCOUT LEADERS have to say on the subject. I truely wish there was a way to only accept votes from actual leaders. Unfortunately, even if every leader voted once and only once and with complete honesty, someone (or many someones) from outside the organization would come in and try to slant the poll in favor of their agenda.

Don't give up though.

Scouter Terry, is there a way to allow those who are willing to fill out some sort of full resgistration...Name, address, phone number, Troop position and affiliation (Varifiable data) etc. and then to restrict a poll to just "registered" members? Or to tally "registered" user votes seperately from those who want to remain anonymous to the you. Personally, I would have no problem putting my info into such a registry and then there would be no doubt that I am involved in the program, care about scouting, and am not here just to promote a personal agenda regardless of it's affect on the BSA.

"My interpretation is that a troop rule that requires a boy to wear his uniform for a Board of Review is definitely not in violation of BSA policy"

OK, before we get back to the same sticking point...the word uniform here means...Those parts of the official scout uniform that the troop requires for such occasions. If the troop only requires a shirt then the boy must be in his shirt to meet the board "for advancement purposes." If the troop requires all boys to have baseball cap to socks and has ensured that the boy in question does, in fact, own all required articles then if he neglects to wear a piece the Board can refuse to meet him "for advancement purposes."

Is this the way everyone understands this issue or am I off the mark?

I'm afraid that if the BSA EVER changes their stance on the homosexual or atheist issues that only a few will beat me to the door (I know there are some who would hold the door for me, but I don't worry about them). I've loved and supported the BSA since I was a kid BECAUSE it held me, my peers, and my leaders to higher moral standards than even my own parents did. I needed that moral compass in my life and there are a lot of young men who need it now (The church services I attended in my troop as a boy were the only church services I got for a long time). I can't be part of an organization that promotes, or even tolerates perversion in it's ranks. Young men need guidance to make the hard (right) choices in life and to seek out truth. As much as I believe people like the troll have a right to their opinion, I will fight to the end to keep them from currupting this organization just so they can feel better about their perverse lifestyle.

OK...if anyone has a ladder I'll climb down off this soap box up here on top of my high horse...but just for a little while

EVMORI,

Obviously, atheism is not a religion. By definition atheism is a DIS-belief in any diety and therefore is the complete lack of religion. I don't think what's his name was claiming that it is a religion, just that by requiring a profession of some type of faith in God the BSA was being disciminatory to those who could not or will not make such a profession. In that sense he/she/it was correct, however there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact, that is one thing particularly right with the BSA.

As a Christian American I'm obligated to tolerate another persons choice to live in an ungodly manner but I am not obligated to embrace it or to associate with anyone I deem perverse.

BTW: If I didn't disagree there would be nothing to tolerate.

It must chap the ACLU's hide to think that freedom of speech extends to conservatives too.

Sorry, I guess I'm rambling.

Rooster7,

I'll second that amen!!

GOD Bless America and the Boy Scouts of America.

Some will say that the founders of our country established a seperation of church and state. I posit that their intent was to keep government out of religion not religion out of the government.

Read on.

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted' for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

George Washington

3 Oct 1789

That would be a great thread Bob White, thanks. In our council a lot of info gets pasts around at round tables etc. and it's not always reliable. I guess part of my concern is my military background coming through. We put just about everything in writing so we can pull it out if someone has a question about why we are doing something the way we are. I personally like being able to point to something in writing and up till now that sort of documentation has eluded me. When you write up the list, if a specific resourse is available on-line, please include the URL.

Thanks again.

Bob White,

I did a quick internet search for 'Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America'. All I got was a cub scout packs home page. Is there a URL for that document. I'm very interested in reading through it. We are about to make some adjustments in our troop policies and I want to make sure we are in line with any established policy.

Thanks

It's seems quite obvious to me that Merlin_leroy is only posting in this forum to stir up anger and disrupt our "normally" civil exchange of ideas. He has stated he does not believe in God and he obviously has a pro-homosexual, pro-atheist, pro-imoralality agenda. Therefore, by MY definition of BSA ideals, he does not qualify to be a scouter. Since this forum was set up for scouts and scouters to exchange ideas I personally feel that we should all ignore leroy's posts from this point forward. IF we are lucky maybe he will go away. I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to post here but he has no right to response. We are we giving him a reason to stay?

Understood, however, guides are not rules, suggestions are not policy. I have stood in front of my troop and said it is against BSA policy to carry sheath knives and therefore we will not do it...and now I've had to go back and say I had incorrect information. I have no problem with going to the scouts and saying the BSA recommends that people not carry sheath knives for the following reasons, but if there is not a clear, written policy on an issue I don't want to say that there is.

Our troop committee and PLC are going to have a meeting soon to go through the guide to safe scouting and various other documents. The boys, with adult input, are going to be asked to come up with a reasonable set of rules as to where we will or won't follow anything labeled as BSA recommendations and where we will or won't make some recommendations even stronger or more strict troop policy. But from this point on I want to be absolutely sure that if I say "it's BSA policy" it truely is policy not just someone elses interpretation of a BSA suggestion.

I've been trying to find "Official" BSA Policy on a lot of information I've received and have had no luck.

Examples:

Supposed BSA Policy...

"Hatchets not allowed." Incorrect, there is no prohibition and they are still selling "Official" BSA Hatchets in the catalog.

"Only folding knives." Incorrect, Sheath knives are not encouraged but are not against BSA policy.

I'm afraid from now on if someone says "it's against BSA policy" I'll have to ask for a reference because I can't find any "Official" policy. The only guidelines I have found are in the guide to safe scouting which is where I found the info I mentioned above.

If anyone knows where the BSA hides their policy documents, please let me know.

Hey, I'm not a junior member anymore...I feel almost grown up )

I am an ASM and have been a SM before. Currently, I'm supposed to be the outdoor program coordinator. Unfortunately, since I actually got in and did what I said I would many ofthe other parents now expect me to take care of everything. Last year at our committes/annual planning meeting all of the parents agreed to take some of the jobs but not that much got done. Right now I am doing all the leg work for the camping program. I try to get the boys involved but there is only so much you can do at a meeting. Assitionally I've been working wiht the youth leaders to get them more and more involved in the meeting planning. Right now I am still having to set an agenda for each meeting but the SPL is taking the agenda and running the program.

I had to be really firm last October about not being willing to pick up the popcorn duties too, but very little got done on it and very little money was raised.

Our SM is getting tired. He talked about reitiring two years ago while I was overseas but agreed to stay on. Now that I'm back I've pretty much picked up the majority of of SM duties. We may be in a gradual transition mode. I'm trying to get some webeleos in this year who have active dads. Maybe that could help us turn the corner on this issue.

It may be time for all the ASMs to have a talk with the SM. It sounds to me as if he may be overstepping his bounds this time. I would never consider contradicting my SM in front of the scouts (except for safety reasons) but if I see something out of whack I think it's my job to step in. Think about the effect on the other scouts...that's what's important.

I agree 100 percent with Chippewa29, there may be outside influences that you are unaware of. We've not had that type of problem in our troop but one of the things I have stepped up to do is help the SPL learn about running the troop. I help him with planning meetings and as the meeting progresses I act somewhat like an executive secretary for him. I prod him about keeping on schedule, remind him in private of things he may have missed or forgotten and critique him regularly on his performance. I also ensure that he is included in the adult discussions when they deal with policy and activities. Maybe a mentor could help this young man come into his own in the position. But I think you would need to approach the scoutmaster/dad about the whole situation first.

Sunday morning came around 7:30. Breakfast for he adults was biscuits and gravy. After breakfast we talked to the boys about lightening their load for backpacking. We had seen several larger than necessary flashlights, etc. We had each boy pull out all his gear and made suggestions on things we thought could make life easier for them. And, yes, we did turn up some contraband that we are dealing with. We got the camp cleaned up and policed and hit the trail around 9:30 or quarter to 10. We picked a different 3.5 trail for our trip out and again, the boys said they really enjoyed the trail time. We arrived at our vehicles almost exactly at noon. After a couple minutes to recuperate we had our church service. Planning to be flexible we discussed the importance of making plans, the importance of listening to God and being ready to change plans if it is His will, and the Fact that God has plans for each of our lives that we can find if we will only look and listen.

After church we piled in the suburbans and headed for home. We stopped in Junction TX at a place called Lums BBQ and each had an excellent BBQ Brisket sandwich. We arrived back in San Angelo around 4:00 pm Sunday, 30 minutes ahead of schedule.

IT WAS A GREAT TRIP.

Adult Menu:

Saturday Breakfast:

Breakfast Burittos (egg and precooked sausage in a tortilla with Taco bell hot sauce)

Saturday Lunch:

Summer Sausage, cheese, crackers, peanuts

Saturday Dinner:

Broccoli and Cheese Rice-O-Roni with Precooked Sausage and a loaf of French bread

Sunday Breakfast:

Biscuits and gravy (Again, made with precooked sausage, my cardiologist would probably blow a gasket if he only knew.

Tips:

1) If you are worried about younger boys being able to handle the rigors of backpackingstop. We had an 11-year-old who is going to be joining the troop next month. He needed a little help with his load because of his size but he did a great job. Just dont expect him to be ready to thru hike the AT. Keep the trip between 3 and 5 miles each way and he should be fine. He was ready to be done about 1000 yards short of our campsite on Saturday and felt like he could do even more than we did on Sunday.

2) If you want to bring fresh meat camping (1-2 days max) Cook it first, then freeze it. If you take out of the frig in Friday night and wrap it in a towel it should just be defrosting by Saturday night.

3) Not really a tip but our new scouts dad came with us (his first backpacking experience). He had a great time and is looking forward to spending more time and going on more trips with the troop.

We asked the boys to show up at 5pm so we could leave at 6. Of course, some of them took it right to the last minute. At 6:10 We pulle dout of San Angelo with two suburbans loaded with backpacks. 3 hours 10 minutes and 3 bathroom breaks later we pulled into Hill Country State Natural Area. It was almost 9:30 and the HQ was closed so we filled out a registration form and headed for the equestrian trailhead campsite we had been told to use for the first night.

The boys set up the tents and helped our visiting webelos' dad get his tent up. We started a fire in the fire ring and were up until about 11:30.

Saturday morning started around 7:30. Making breakfast, cleaning up, and breaking camp took till about 9:30. We Checked in with HQ and checked trail conditions and around 10:00 we were ready to hit the trail. One of the dads I had with me wasn't sure his knees would make the trip so we arranged for the camp host to take him and all our extra water to our next campsite. The lady who ran the camp and the camp host were both very nice and very helpful.

The rest of us (myself, one other dad, and 8 scouts) hit the trail about 10:00. I started them off with a fairly steep ascent and when we reached the top we stopped and adjusted everyones pack that needed it. About 30 minutes of hiking brought us to the base of an Overlook trail. We dropped our packs at the base and headed up to the overlook. My scout who has the toughest time keeping up with hikes said to me on the way up, "I'm really glad I came on this one...this is pretty cool."

Back at the base we took a break to let the boys get drinks and some trail snack and to get rid of any heavy clothes left from the start of the hike. Then we were back at it. At the 2.5 mile mark we stopped for lunch. We found a small grassy knoll with shade and broken sunlight. It was about 70 degrees. Could have asked for better! Lunch was crackers, cheese and summer sausage for most of us. The boys had paired or threed up for meals and the adults ate together. After lunch we had another mile plus a little to go to get to camp. By the way, HCSNA has some of the best marked trails Ive seen. Only had one or two times when we had to work to figure out exactly where we were.

When we reached camp our third adult had already gathered some wood and started a fire and once we were in camp he got to leave and check out some of the surroundings. The rest of the after for the scouts was exploration time. We set some limits on where they could go and made sure they only went out in groups but they were on their own. After the sun went down the adults and a few of the boys hung out around the fire and some of the boys played a few games of fox and hounds.

Marcy,

Our troop is not a homeschool troop. My two boys and one of the other boys in the troop are homeschooled, all the others are in public school. We have explored the possibility of starting a troop in the homeschool association but the association is not ready to charter a troop. Besides that, most of the kids that are scouting age are already affiliated with other units. And to top it all off, we would only be looking at about 7-10 boys anyway.

We are part of the San Angelo Christian Homeschool Association and the idea of spending our scouting time almost strictly around other Christians is appealing but at the same time we see this as an opportunity to share our faith with others.

Marcy,

Glad y'all had a good time. I've been enjoying that type of scouting adventure for close to thirty years and I'm having a great time bringing my boys up in the program.

We live over in San Angelo. If you ever come through, or troop meets at Cornerstone Christian School on North Jefferson Mondays at 7:00. Fell free to stop by. Scouters are always welcome.

My main concern with the public schools is with their position that Homosexuality is a valid lifestyle choice, promisquity is inevitable, All religeons are equal, and none are really valid, and that there is no objective truth but everything depends on your point of view.

Sorry folks, but those are not the values I want my children exposed to. Although they seem to be the bedrock of the ACLU.

Sctmom, With all due respect, it's not the homosexual down the street who keeps to him/herself that bothers me (although they are still making a bad choice, IMHO). It is the radical, in your face, accept my way as the right way or your a facist, homosexual "rights" activist that I object to. The homosexual agenda is to force people who object to their lifestyle to call it acceptable rather than just tolerate it, which is all they are truly entitled to. I object to anyone that says my children WILL be indoctrinated into something that I deem to be wrong. The moral backruptcy being taught in our school systems is one of the main reasons my wife and I homeschool. The homosexual lifestyle is an abomination physically, emotionally, and spiritually and I will not have it presented to my children as anything else.

One of the things I enjoyed most as a scout were the songs I learned. I know there are many sites out there with the words to many of these songs but I've learned to play guitar and would like to know if anyone knows of a site that has both the words and the chords for scouting tunes.

I've only been over to bastrop once for summer camp at lost pines. What part of Texas are y'all from.

Hi sctmom,

A couple years ago I asked our council exec what happens if I designate a BSA donation to our council or to a specific troop. I was surprised by the answer. Our council received (i think) $144k from the United Way. If I specify that I want my $36 to go to my council they still get the same amount. Until more than $144k worth of donations are specifically earmarked the United Way puts your money in a big pot and dishes it out as they see fit. If I designated my donation to a specific troop the council would have to take that money out of their $144k and give it to the troop. In the mean time, the United Way is funding dozens of Pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-animals should have more rights than humans type organizations. My recomendation is that if you want to give money to the BSA, or any other specific organization, give it directly to them. Otherwise your money is helping to support groups you may disagree with.