Bob White

Hi Ryon. Now that you have had an opportunity to learn and practice leadership let's look at this from a different point of view. You have identified the syptoms. What do you think the problem is? What do you think a good solution would be. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Thanks FB but just because I understand the administartive levels of the BSA doesn't mean I spend time there. When training or commissioning, Volunteers have all kinds of questions. I can do like some and make up answers, or give my opinion about what I "think" or "feel" happens, but out of respect for the person asking the question I seek the facts before I share the answer. Rare? Perhaps. Time intensive? At times I suppose. Why do it that way? I believe it is the scout-like thing to do.

CNN has just reported that Congress has has ended the half staff order two days early in order to allow flags to fly at full mast for the Fourth of july Celebration.

I plead guilty to lacking tact. If I ever tell a person to go to hell I will have no concern as to the quality of the journey.

"What you say may be true, but the individual bearing the brunt of your message still feels attacked. I think what has to be considered boleta is intent. As you pointed uot the fact that the biggest problem was his lack on knowlkedge is the truth. I did not make that up and I even showed that through the many misconceptions he had. I explained that the problem can be solved, and gave him numerous resources to correct the problem. He may very well have a serious problem in the council administration but until he learns what the administration is supposed to do and how they are supposed to do it he can never sind a solution. Unlike others in this particular forum I did not just say that he was wrong, I explained what was right and why. While I know it is uncomfortable to hear that you are incorrect you cannot blame the messenger if the message is true. And yes I do go on on the defense at times (witness my last post)but I haven't attacked a person for not knowing, only for refusing to learn or use what they know is factual. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eamonn, I am seriously hovering over the backspace key before I post this message. NJ, You haven't the tools to spar with anyone with any amount of knowledge in the scouting program. You are an instigator. You appear to hang around this particular forum to add opinion and emotion rather than BSA knowledge or information. Which is fine as long as you are honest enough to say that is your purpose. But you hide behind accusations that you leave unsupported and unproven You cannot supply so much as one piece of evidence to support the accusations you made against me in this thread. You could no more argue scouting program with me than you could with Eamonn. In fact i could easily list a dozen regular posters who would KO you in the scouting discussion ring. I am glad that you and Ed agree, and I am not surprised. At least there is a match you stand a good chance of winning. (and some think I have no sense of humor).

Hi dancin, My question is why some posters, yours I felt had a hint of this, equate knowing the policies with not delivering the program. I give the reference location for the policy and posters argue with me over it. I didn't write them, I just looked them up or learned them through experience. Yet several posters attribute the rules to me personally. You for instance did not say that you appreciated the information I shared. You used my information on rules as a contrast to Eamonn's friendliness and assumed I lack compassion because I know where to find the policies. I do not lack compassion for people who do not know the rules. I lack patience for leaders who know them yet do not follow them. For those who do not know the rules I am happy and willing to help. For those who refuse to learn the rules or refuse to follow the rules, I say "please go screw up someone else's program". The hypocrisy of a leader who wants Scouts do do what the leader requires, yet the leader refuses to do what the BSA requires, burns my patience no end. They are a waste of space in a scout uniform. Now will Eamonn ever say that? Maybe not. Do you think he gets aggravated by scouters who don't follow the rules?. I'd take that bet. I think to help people you need to be honest with them. When posters ask questions I try to give factual helpful answers. When the question is about policy I give them the actual policy. Sometimes incorrect or basless answers are given by posters who present them as fact. If I know they are wrong I post the facts and the resource. Some posters purposely avoid the facts in order to fan the emotions of the poster and make for more "exciting" threads. I find that insulting t everyone else. So to those few I call a spade a spade. I don't get what the problem is.

NJ if you are referring to the fact that you can expect my posts to counter fantasy with fact then you are correct in your anticipation. If you mean that I think posters deserve the truth rather than have other postersuse emotional rhetoric that continues to fuel undue anger and hostility you are correct again. I think what you trued to do with jhnky was to fan his emotions without providing any real information. This makes for a more interesting and arguementative thread that brings you and a few others personal glee. But it does nothing to actually help the poster. I am not sure which is worse. To not have knowledge and ask questions, or to have some knowledge but lack the courtesy to share it truthfully.

Jhnky You need to understand tha your biggest problem is a personal lack of knowledge of the BSA structure. NOTHING you have brought up so far is a violation of a rule or regulation. You certainly have several frustrations, but most are of your own creation. As examples: They're on 6 year contracts. Actually they are on whatever contract period they negotiate with the council executive board, and like most contract it can be renegotiated and or extended before it ends. No rule violation! We have MANY MANY 20, 25, 30 and 35 year volunteers. Our Community has many ranging from 5, 10, 20 up to a 50 year that just died. And you have several volunteers for each of those veterans who left the program before you even had a chance to meet them serving at Council and District level have had VERY high level and successful business careers - careers with far more responsibilities than our SE. Frankly, many of these volunteers have or hold far more important and prestigious positions than some of our Executive Board members So what? You have proved that differently people have different jobs. Is it your contention that the quality of a person is based on the prestige of their professional position? Or that to have less prestigious persons on the board is a violation of the BSA rules? and these volunteers are paid nothing for the long hours and effort they put in. Thats pretty much why we are called volunteers isnt it? Not a rule violation! This SE seemingly came from a poor background and is doing pretty darn well at the present. This is an affluent area and a large council. He's paid well "for a poor kid from XXX" as he so often says and well for this area compared to many with comparable management positions. Certainly you are not suggesting that working his way up from a poor background is a violation of the BSA rules and regulations. He's been ambitious and has a history of aggressively "climbing the ladder" on the backs of others - as too late research has shown. He's a great salesman but a horrible leader. Perhaps your evaluation is correct, BUT that is still not a violation of any rule or regulation. Past DE's were focused on money and numbers too. You really do not understand do you? The role of the DE is to increase membership, manpower and monies to support the program.The quality of the program is your responsibility as a volunteer. They have 3 year contracts. Thats because after three-years they become eligible for promotion to Senior DE . One troop was kept on the books with 6 kids and 2 adults and the roster padded with ghosts because they didn't want to lose a unit. DE's had number to make. There are lots of similar cases. There are similar situation everywhere. The local Scout executive has the authority to determine the eligibility of a charter on a case by case basis. No rule violation here. A DISTRICT CHAIRMAN position was left vacant, not a mere Commissioner or ADC. - on purpose. That position is supposed to be the Council's voice at the Council level. A District chair is one voice a district has on the board. The district has many voices including all the charter representatives we spoke of earlier. One of two Vice Chairmen for that Council is totally unknown to Scouting with no experience. I do not think you will find Vice-chair as an official position of the district. It is a worker-bee position created by the District Chairmen to lessen his workload. When a SE instructs DE's to "get rid of long term volunteers and get people who will raise money for us" he's showing what he cares about. If that persons responsibility included supporting the necessary fundraising activity to keep a council going, and that person refused to do that part of their job, then they should be removed. It would be no different then if a den leader refused to hold weekly den meetings. If that was the job expectation and they refused to do it then they should be removed. And visitors of any kind are not so welcome in Council Offices. Are the doors locked and barred? Is a secret password need to enter the building? You now have to be "Announced" and escorted. jhnky, think about thisits a business office. How many companies do you know where a person can walk in off the street and wander wherever they want??? The council office records have the contact information on Thousands of children, your children!!! The Council has a responsibility to maintain a certain level pf security because of that. No amount of spin can make any of this look good. The only spin here is from you. You are using a total inexperience to the structure of scouting to create trouble where so far none exiss according to your total lack of real evidence. Even BSA makes some big mistakes. Unfortunately, they can be hard to clean up and do real damage - not just to a local area but Scouting itself. Refusing to acknowledging what is wrong and justifying or excusing it does no service to Scouting Even volunteers make big mistakes. You have made a sizable one here. Personally, I try my hardest to give people the benefit of a doubt, but this SE has been horrible for us and horrible for Scouting. When someone can unite HUNDREDS of people - quite literally - in universal loathing, I rather doubt that there's been a misunderstanding. Now that you have given him the benefit of the doubt, how about giving him the courtesy of knowledge and give yourself the gift of knowledge. You really have no idea how the BSA is structured, operates, the positions of responsibility or their duties. I'm gone. I rather doubt this SE will show up at camp this year. Not a rule violation! He ran out of a meeting he tried to hold last year when everyone started hitting him with questions he didn't want to answer. If he was met with the same denial of facts that you have displayed I would not blame for leaving once the hitting started. A good leader commands respect by his actions. A poor leader tries to intimidate others into obedience. A good leader does not need to either command or intimidate. Respect is a mutual relationship that must come from both directions. How much respect are volunteers showing if the base their opinions on as little knowledge as you have shared thus far? Take time to learn about the corporate side of scouting before you continue to assault a situation that you do not understand. Have a good time at camp. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Notice that the handbook doesn't suggest that the religious onligation can be met through a BSA "sanctioned" service, it says to have an "approved" service in the camp or to make an effort to take the scouts to town to the service of their faith. In may religions an approved service requires the presence of clergy and specific rites or rituals that must be performed. This cannot be accomplished in a non-denominational observance. It does not suggest that a Scouts Own observance is a religious service or that it is meant to fufill religious obligations. Now please let's give Rooster a chance to present BSA resources that support his position before we present more that do not. Rooster?

The way to get boys who are not cubs crossing over is NOt to invite them to a sscout activity, but to invite them to an adventure and let them discover that everyone else is a scout. Hey.........(fill in the friend of your choice), some buddies and I are going .........(choose an event from the list below) want to come with? Skiing, camping, rappelling, canoeing, rafting, caving, trap shooting, rifle range, swimming, biking, rollerblading, rocket launching. Don't invite them to a troop meeting. Invite them on the adventure that troop meetings are supposed to prepare you for. But before you do this remember, I don't know squat.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

jhnky Please consider these points carefully. " I am also getting the feeling that getting one's hands on "rules and regualtions" my initial question - is NOT easy" Forget feelings..deal with facts. The fact is there is a copy of rules and regs at every council office that any member can go look at. Forget the hearsay offered by others the fact is the bok is there, feel free to go look at it. In my experience, the long serving volunteers that are the core of Scoouting are far more true to its values than the paid staff who come and go. I do not know what your experience is I can only speak from mine and I am one of those "long serving volunteers" you speak of. If you think being a scouting professional is a "get rich quick scheme" then someone was lead you seriously astray. No one becomes a DE in the hopes of money fame or glory. It is a difficult, time intensive, goal demanding, high turnover, often thankless job. As far as who is in this for the long run, volunteers spend an average of 5 years in the program. 5 years! More volunteers will come and go in your scouting tenure than professionals in your council. "Paid staff want to make their goals and move up. The volunteers are in it for "the boys" and "Scouting" - for the long run." Since when is wanting to do well in your job a bad thing? We teach our scouts to "do their best" is that not supposed to count when they get a job? Those that presuppose that BSA is always right and that those pesky volunteers simply don't understand do BSA a disservice. Wouldn't you think that those volunteers who do not take the time to learn about the program and the organization they joined do a greater disservice that the ones who take the time to learn? There is NO justification for leaving a District position vacant. That DIstrict has been the most vocal critic of the SE - denying them a voice at COuncil Level is retribution. If this ADC position is the one you are refering to when you were talking of a key position...it isn't one. A District Commissioner can have as few or as many ADCs as they choose or none at all. And an ADC is not a voice on the Council Level either. Her or she may serve on a council committee relating to commissioner service, but they are no graeter a voice than any other council sub-committee member and they have no vote or voice on the executive board. Actually, percentage wise, out of the numbers available, I don't know if there's any real growth. Nobody's looked at it that way. Sure they do that is a common statistic that every district committee gathers each year, you just don't know it because that is not your area of responsibility. You really have little idea what goes on beyond the unit. And thats fine. As a unit volunteer you need to know the unit program. But if you are going to make accusations about the Professionals, and volunteers ant the other leves you should have the courtesy to learn about what they do and how they do it, BEFORE you start casting your arrows. "Since fund raising is way down - specifically because units have chosen this as the most direct method of registering protest - something is clearly very wrong." Sorry jkhny but if you guys were armed you'd be shooting yourselves in the foot. You are purposely sabotaging the fundraising, forcing the council to cut services and raise money by selling properties, and then you complain about them doing the very thing that YOUR actions have now caused them to do. "If Council is the "keeper of the rules and regulations," lots of luck in getting a good look at them if you're questioning the actions of the SE. Who says to go in and tell them you are questioning the actions of the SE. Why not just say you want to learn what is in the book? "So, just why aren't they available through supply or elsewhere anymore? What do you mean "anymore" when did you think they were avalibale any other way? What is the justification for limiting access? They are the National rules that control what the council does. they are they council's resource. They have nothing to do with unit program . All those resources that effect the unit are in ample supply. "No more responses from me. I'm off to summer camp" I hope your scouts have a great time. While you are there look around and think about all the money that your long term dedicated volunteers have chosed NOT to raise to help insure the camps future. Your greatest enemy is not the SE but your anger lack of willingness to learn about the administrative side of scouting. Bob White

While I'm sure there are some who share your feeling it does not appear to be the overwhelming view of the growing number of people purchasing the product, or the growing number of units choosing to sell it.

"This statement, as well as some others that you made (not all), represent your personal feelings about such a service." Excuse me Rooster, but did I represent it as anything other than my personal feelings? "As to the BSAs intentions concerning such a service, and what constitutes a BSA sanctioned service, please point me to the proper documentation (if such a document exists). I am curious." Gladly, but just for fun..you go first. You have now written several posts on this topic. All of which was your personal opinion. None of which has any relationship to the scouting program. You show me one scrap of BSA material that supports any of the personal diatribe you have offered us on this topic. Then I will post the BSA resources supporting the information I shared. By the way, I never called it a BSA sanctioned service. I did not not even call it a service. Those are your words. I never even suggested that the BSA was in the business of "sanctioning" any religious "services". In fact I said that they were not services at all. I look forward to learning your BSA resources. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Bob, you make a number of assumptions about what is happening in jhkny's council," On the contrary I made no assumptions on his specific situation and said so in the opening of my post. "Is the money from the land sales being used for what you say it's being used for?" I never said where that money was being used, only that the sales of camps reduces costs and makes money. Read the post again. "It may well be you are correct that the SE did not actually remove the ADC. But you don't actually know it." That is I wrote "It is highly unlikely that the SE had anything to do with that." Rather than the SE had nothing to do with that. Read the post again please. " It could well be that all sorts of things are wrong in the particular council, money is being "misplaced," the SE is acting in a dictatorial manner, the Executive Board is not going their jobs and letting the SE run amok." Now who is making assumptions? jkhny never said money was being misplaced. He asked where it was going. There is a big difference. YOU assumed it was being misplaced but no such accusation was made by jkhny. Where is the evidence that the SE is being allowed to run amok? None has been offered. What evidence have you that the executive board is not doing there job? You have none, other than those which you have assumed. SEs come in all shapes and styles, some are dictatorial some aren't. The executive board has the authority to fire him if they so choose. They have not chosen to do so at this time. Why? I do not know, and neither do you of jkhny. So you see NJ you have inferred far more into this than I. I am glad you agree with me that it is the responsibility of the voting members of the council to deal with whatever the situation is. "this (the rules and regulations)is not made available for the people who are "governed" by it.." Unless you are a voting member of the District or Council, you are not governed by this book. As a unit leader we are governed by the Oath and Law and the program policies of the BSA. Not the Rules and regulations of the corporation. "I heard that someone went to his council office..." Shame on you to base an opinion on rumor. I would think that you of all people would know better than to do that. "Now, if that sort of behavior is typical" You don't even know if that behavior even happened remember it was hearsay. How can you even ask that question after you even said that the premise was unfounded. 'm not really positive who gets elected, because I've never read the Bylaws," Then perhaps a little homework is in order before you discount another persons posts on the subject? " the SE is actually running amok as you seem to describe" Shame on you again. Give us one iota of evidence presented in the post that suggests the SE has done anything wrong, other that jhnky's comment that "The SE seems to be rewriting the rules and doing what he wants". Which rules has he re-written? By your own admissions neither of you even know what the rules are. So exactly what is the SE guilty of. Be specific counselor not emotional. jhnky deserves facts and information to help him to understand the situation and make clear decisions and all you are doing is supporting the emotional agitation being felt by him and others. he deserves better help then fear mongering. You admit you have no knowledge in this matter other than it is the responsibility of the voting members of the council to deal with the situation. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Those Eagle scout projects are not donations to the Eagle scout, Unit, or BSA they are to the beneficiary of the project or to the organization providing the service, which again is not the unit or the BSA. Which tax laws, the ones regarding the giver or the ones regarding the receiver? Unless the unit is a registered 501-3c that donation is taxable aginst the receiver.

"In fact I don't think I have ever seen a unit raising money for the "BSA". It is always "Troop XX" or "Pack XX" written on the signs." But what if those boys where in street clothes and didn't use the words Boy Scouts, Troop, Scouting, Scouts, etc.. How much harder would it be to sell if they were in jeans and t-shirts and just said "we are raising money for a youth program at the Lutheran Church". You are using the name, image, reputation of the BSA and you have no legal right to do that without permission. "I also do not think Units should be out "asking" for free money." Putting aside what you "think" or "feel" lets focus on what you now know. The rules of the BSA prohibit a unit, or an individual on behalf of a unit, from soliciting donations without the exchange of goods or services. But if a private or corporate organization wants to support the community through scouting I think that is OK." That is good, but their accountant is going to want it to be tax deductible so it has go go to a legitimate non-profit organization and your unit does not qualify. They can give the money to you Charter organization if they are a 501 organization, and they in turn may choose to share it in part or whole with THEIR scout unit(s). "A scouter's Employer offers an annual Grant to any NFP volunteer organization that the employee/volunteer contributes a minimum # of hours to annually. The Employer actually prefers that the money go to a local organization tied to that employee/volunteer. The Employer wants to see the money go directly to the community where they do business. You are tied to the council aren't you? Your are registered with them. The unit is registered with them. Your Charter Organization is a voting member of the board. That seems tied to me! or does the community this business serves only extend as far as the families in the one unit you serve? By giving the money to the Council it is a legitimate donation and it serves more of the families in that business community then by giving it to just one unit. As I posted previously...A unit can accept a donation but they cannot solicit the donation. BEWARE You are not a 501-3c, which means that legally the cash donation you receive is taxable by the IRS. Failure to file and pay the proper taxes could lead to legal action against the CO and the registered committee members of the unit. They can be held personally responsible for any taxes due along fines and penalties and even jail time.

dancinfox has pointed out that I know the rules as if that were a bad thing. Actually I don't know all the rules though I do know most of them.(It would seem silly to me to be a unit leader, commissioner and trainer for nearly 30-years and not have learned the rules of the game we play.) So when an issue arises on the forum regarding the four areas controlled by the BSA with policies: Safety, Uniforming, Advancement,and Membership, I simply go to that resource and look it up. Why don't more leaders do that? I have no idea. Why would anyone volunteer and choose to either not learn or not follow the rules that govern the organization. I am baffled by that as well. I do not mind filling the role of resource person. I know is where the rules are found, and again it would be silly if after all this time I hadn't learned that as well. But dancinfox and a few others seem to ignore the program information I have shared, and they focus only on the rules. It's odd also that those posts I make concerning the rules are usually in response to posters asking a question to which the rules apply. Yet, when I say this is the BSA rule in this BSA resource there are a few posters who want to argue them. They are not my rules. They are not ours to make or ignore. We chose our jobs we accepted the responsibility. So many posters whine about the fact that they cannot get scouts to do what hey should and yet the leaders refuse to do what they are supposed to. Go figure. I too enjoy Eamonn's posts as well, if you notice we agree on methods and leadership styles pretty much 99% of the time. We have different writing styles. Wouldn't it be boring if we all wrote with exactly the same voice. Not looking for any response to this post, just wanted to offer some clarity to to what I felt was a myopic view of my contributions here. Just one last point please. There have been three posters in the last couple weeks who have inferred that I am not an active scouter. Just to set the record straight, I have been and continue to be a unit leader for the past 28 years. Currently I am an assistant scoutmaster, but I have been a SM, Den Leader, and a Cubmaster. So I would appreciate a halt to those insinuations.

Scout's Own, and other similar observances, where the the relationship of the scouting ideals and ones duty to God are brought to the foreront. Are not meant to be religious services used to fullfill any specifc religions worship obligations. The purpose is to celebrate the similsrities we share as scouts that we aknowledge and accept the existence of God. And to recognize that we have values common throughout multiple religious affiliations that are realized through the scouting movement and brotherhood. As a Catholic I have no problem attending a celebration that points out as a scouter I do good things in God's eyes. Jesus doen't have to be mentioned for me to enjoy that gathering. I like God. I like Jesus too. I can go to a gathering where wither or neither is mentioned and I will still like Him. I don't need to hear His name in any specific way to appreciate the role he plays in my life and in scouting. Nor do I see this as celebrating the Mass. If I attend a Scouts Own, I still have to attend Mass to complete my weekly obligation. So lets not confuse what A camporee Fellowship Service is, or what it's goal is. We gather to celebrate that besides some difeerence, both large and small, we have a core commonality. We share the same scouting values which include a belief in the powere of God.

jkny, While I cannot address the specific of your situation I might be able to shed some light on some common misconceptions that seem to be present in your concerns. This should not be misunderstood as my personal support of what is going on, just information that may help you to understand it better. "Our SE first alienated a large number of volunteers over the sale of a now Council owned facility" it is not a "now Council owned property" It is just a council owned property. Only the council "owns things" not the district. The district is just a geographic sub area determined by the council for the sole purpose of assisting administration of the BSA in a community. The District is not a legal entity. "If enrollments are up, why are they still selling? Where has the money gone?" Because as membership grows more resources are needed to serve that membership. resources cost money. so the more youth served the more money needed to serve them. On average a council spends about $130 per scout to maintain its current level of program. That money comes from numerous sources: popcorn sales, FOS, United Way, endowments, and activity fees are the most common. Now that will just keep the program going this year. I am hopeful you would want to see the program in your area have a solid financial foundation for years to come and to grow in services and resources. If membership is up but FOS, United Way and other financial resources are declining in total then the Council has no choice but cut costs. Campos are expensive to maintain but property can raise capitol. So unfortunately selling properties is an effective way to lower costs and raise money at the same time. "One District currently has its top position deliberately left vacant. A long serving Assistant District Commissioner with 25 years in Scouting was replaced with a novice Cub Scout Leader." That decision was made by the District Commissioner, a fellow volunteer responsible and empowered to select his/her own assistants. Regardless of the outgoing volunteers years of service, if he wanted accomplishing goals or fulfilling his responsibility the DC has every right to replace him. It is highly unlikely that the SE had anything to do with that. "No reason was given for his removal" And for reasons of the volunteers right to confidentiality none will be given. Stay out of the rumor mill, that is no place to be in order to serve Scouts or Scouting. "Complete unknowns are named to District and Council positions while volunteers with decades of service are shoved aside." Sometimes people lose their skills, some do not keep up with program growth, some forget too much of what they learned. things change. I would not say these newer scouters are complete unknowns. Somebody knew who they were enough to select them for the job. You need to trust that the people responsible for making those decisions are doing the best they can as volunteers and professionals. As you pointed out, the membership is growing, so somewhere someone is doing things right. Who is an Assistant district commissioner has zero effect on the quality of your next unit meeting. That is where the focus of unit volunteers need to be. "Even members of the Executive Board feel that the SE has exceeded his authority." If that were true they would fire the SE and hire a new one. They are board of directors for the council and are the only local body with the authority to do that. "However, it seems like even the Executive Board has been "stacked" - it's heavy on "suits" and light on those with real Scouting involvement and experience." That is the case in pretty much every council, especially the best ones. The role of the executive board is to operate the business of the non-profit corporation. They do not do program work. that is the job of the district/council activity committees and the unit leaders themselves. " Over 100 volunteers showed up and an exec Board meeting in protest and were basically told they don't count for much - the SE and Board can do what they feel is best." I would hope it was presented better than that. Scouting is a multi-layered cooperative effort by volunteers and professionals alike, with different positions having different responsibilities and authority. As a unit leader your primary job is serving the charter organization and the scouts in that unit. But you need to cooperate with the other layers of scouting for it all to work. And the other layers need to cooperate with the unit. Your unit has a voting voice in the District and Council administration. That person is your Charter Organization representative. You need to make sure that they are fulfilling their obligation and attending these meetings to vote for what they thinks serves their charter organization and the BSA the best. " "Rules and regulations" used to be readily available" I'm sure they still are available in the exact same way they have always been. They are at the local council service center for review. But you need to know that nothing you have shared suggests in the slightest way that any rule or regulation has been violated. Your SE may lack people skills but that is not a BSA violation. "Appeals have been made but this is a "local" problem." That is absolutely correct it is a local problem. Just as your unit has a charter for one year so does the Council. Each year every volunteer position in the council comes up for renewal with national as does the council as a whole. It is it's own non-profit corporation separate and distinct from the BSA national council (which is separate from the national office). each Council signs an annual agreement to franchise the BSA program and become the local legal representative of the BSA. "BSA is a big non-profit corporation & our Council has the same orientation. Yes, exactly. Focus is on money and "numbers" - that's what boys are to them. Sorry jkhny, but that is purely emotional rhetoric and I doubt you have any facts or experience to support that remark. Do you know anyone who works at national? What they do specifically? How they feel about the youth they serve? What there commitment is to the people and the program they serve. Based on you current misconceptions I would have to surmise that you do not. There are only a relative handful of scouting professionals who service, maintain, and support a membership of over 6 million in nearly 300 councils of the BSA located all over the world. And they do this while we all go off to work in our own careers each day, and from time to time we get to gather together over coffee to bad-mouth professional scouters whose jobs and responsibilities most volunteers barely comprehend. Our Council sold three camp properties 25 years ago. most scouters at the time moaned and swore and predicted the end of scouting in our council. We are bigger, better and financially stronger then ever before. Yet of the few of us still around who went through it, some still waste time bemoaning what was instead of helping to create what is. Get your Charter rep to the Council meetings and get the unit volunteers back to focusing on the next troop meeting and the next adventure. Hope this helps, Bob White

There are normally several steps between DE and SE. Senior DE, District Diorector, Field Director, Council Finance, Properties manager, Assitant SE, perhaps regional positons, even national office positions, in any variety of combinations. It takes years years to progress professionally in scouting as in any corportation. You do not search out opportunities per se. The Regional office for the area you serve determines for the most part what position opportunities for which your name will be submitted as a potential candidate. That still does not guarantee you and interview, nor will an interview guarantee you the job.

"I would be willing to bet (having never met Bob) that he is ALWAYS in a full field uniform, when appropriate, as described in the BSHB." Sorta, almost, pretty close. I guess the key phrase is "when appropriate. I am not always in uniform. But when it is appropriate to be in uniform then I make every effort to be in a complete and correct uniform. That includes whether it is appropriate to be in an activity or a field uniform. Is that a bad thing? Would anyone here prefer that unit leaders not try to do the best they can in following the program and setting a good example? I sometimes wear a scout t-shirt, sweatshirt, or polo with jeans or street clothes but I don't pretend that its a uniform. When a uniform is appropriate I wear the entire uniform. As for how to get the Scouts in uniform that has been discussed several times before. Some of the main points are. Set a good example. Positive recognition for appearance. Make uniforms available and affordable through pre-worn uniform pieces. Start early, Cubs in a complete uniform become scouts in complete uniform. Communicate the purpose of uniforming to parents. Wear the uniform only at appropriate times to extent its look and life and to add to its meaning. Get ALL unit volunteers trained so that they understand and support the methods of scouting. Hope this helps BW

We seem to have this conversation crop up every few months on this forum. The rules and regulations that refer to the operation of a scout unit are not found in one place but are in a few easy to find resources that need to be in every unit library. The Youth Handbooks The Adult leader Handbooks The Youth and Adult membership Applications The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual The Guide to Safe Scouting The Unit Money Earning Application Local and National Tour Permits The Insignia Guide The BSA Rules and Regulations is available ofr viewing at your council office and has the bylaws of incorporation that details how councils and districts are formed, their legal responsibilities, how officers are sellected and elected etc. Are your questions related to Council operations or unit operations? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The best recruitment tool I have ever seen is to have a good scouting program for the scouts you serve today. Planned hands-on troop meetings that teach a scout the skills needed for their next adventure, followed by an outdoor adventure where they can apply the skills they learned, will make scouts want to bring their friends in to join the fun.

When you consider the two purposes of roundtable It seems to me that hands on activity and face to face contact is essential to meeting those goals. Perhaps the most difficult but most effective solution is that if the participants can't come to Rountable, that Roundtable go to the participants. Two ways to do that would be to either have one Roundtable staff present the program in multiple locations in the District, or have multiple Roundtable staffs following a similar agenda in different locations in the District. I am not sure that you can effectively deliver a remote control Rountable then you could a remote control troop meeting.