VigilEagle04

"Coats of Arms, however, are a different matter. They are the property of the person to whom they are granted. In fact the Court of Lyon is very serious about enforcing it's grants. Unauthorized use of Coats of Arms may be prosecuted by the Court at the expense of the Crown."

Well, the common misconception is that a coat of arms is for the family, but it is only to one person, at least in the British Isles. They can be handed down to children, but there are certain heraldic symbols that get put in there in that case.

As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. In a sense, Scouts wearing the MacLaren tartan is like showing respect and allegiance to that clan, which makes good sense considering the gift of Gilwell. Nothing disrespectful about it, IMO.

Though I have put some thought into having a walking kilt made out of a fabric the color of the BSA pants. It won't be as good looking as the tartan, but I'm interested in how it will look. If I can get the material in the Webelos plaid, I may try that out as well. If only the weaver I once knew was still alive.

I definitely think the BSA making their own tartan would be an excellent idea. I've actually thought of a couple other ideas to send on to supply, maybe you should suggest that one, lol.

"I have to admit, I thought that this was an excellent idea, until I read jblake47's post. It did make me stop and think, and realize that we should respect the traditions of the old world. Yet, I love celebrating my Irish heritage (Yes, the Celts wore kilts too...not just the Scots), with kilts and old world traditions. So what to do?"

Here's how I view it. First and foremost, let me point out that as men of Irish heritage, there are 3 tartans in the Scottish registry for us. As Irish Americans, there is a 4th. http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/results.aspx?name=irish&cat=&ref=&des=&sta=&stwr=&apn=&res=

There are also tartans for several prominent Irish families, but mainly there are regional tartans. Now, knowing that some of my roots (the traceable Irish ones anyway) go to County Meath in Leinster, I could wear that regional tartan. I may also point out that the traditional Irish kilt is a solid color, though to be fair, the Irish didn't really adopt the kilt until the early 20th century. There is nothing truly "traditional" about an Irish kilt. It was adopted by some as a symbol of Celtic heritage more than anything.

So, if your Celtic roots lie in the Emerald Isle, you have plenty of options.(This message has been edited by VigilEagle04)

"So AHG will accept girls of any faith ... just tell them that their parents can't help out because they're nonbelievers?"

Which I take to mean "we just want to have your girl involved because she is young and we want to proselytize to her without you around."

Not wanting to offend anyone here, but that's just how it looks from an outsider's perspective, an outsider being a non-Christian. Don't get me wrong, I think faith of any kind is a wonderful thing, things like that just make me a little suspicious. If/when I have children, I will expose them to all religions when they are of an age to have a cognitive understanding of them, but I would want to be there.

"+ We're pretty sure that the BSA's affiliation with AHG is not exclusive. We may be mistaken, but it's our understanding if the "Druids of America" want to set up the AOG (American Oak Girls) and worship the "oak tree God", and do fund raisers, so the troop could go to a Camporee at Stonehenge during the solstice, the BSA would go along."

I must say, I got a kick out of this being a Celtic spiritualist, or what many people call a Druid these days. Kudos to you for giving me a good laugh this morning, and an eerie coincidence that you used that for an example.

I will say that I am, admittedly, not a huge fan of the AHG as a group to ally with. Having been involved with a troop that catered to many that some other troops in the area didn't want for religious reasons (I'm in the Bible Belt for sure) I've experienced some of the attitudes expressed from an organization of non-discrimination when it comes to religion, and those scouts can say for sure they are doing their duty to god, and they are reverent.

I myself have come under fire at least twice. Once I was told by the District Commissioner I could be thrown out of the BSA, I actually wrote an article on that experience and sent it to National as well as the publication it was being put in. This was while I was a youth and working on camp staff.

So yeah, if we have an open group here that is non-discriminatory, no statement of faith except to, essentially, Nature's God, and things like this can arise, I don't care to see what could arise from a group like AHG in the same sorts of scenarios.

As for going co-ed, this country isn't ready for it. This country is much more prudish when it comes to these things. We may not realize it much, but in comparison to many other countries, save maybe China and the Middle East, when it comes the idea of boys and girls intermingling apart from the classroom, we're very conservative. It just comes from our Puritanical roots.

I remember seeing the experiment unfold in Canada. It was quite interesting to see the changes occur in the switch to Scouts Canada from an outsider's perspective. I think we Americans, visiting their camp, thought more about the girls being there than the Canadians did, and this was the first year of the organization going co-ed. I never heard of any issues during my stay up there, and never heard of anything in subsequent visits as an older youth, and then as an adult. We would head over to the campsites of Canadian troops, play capture the flag with them, join them for dinner (all cooking was in camp), go hiking, what have you, and the girls just seemed to blend in with all the rest. I'm sure not every unit was as seamless in the transition as those I was in contact with, but it really made me think about the BSA going co-ed some day. While I think we are closer now than ever to the idea of it, we still aren't very close.

Now, all that being said, I would love to see it be a fully co-ed program. There are many things we could learn from their side, and many things they could learn from us. I've said this before to people though, and they've laughed about cooking, cleaning, and sewing. All I have to say to that is those things are covered in the BSA curriculum as well, lol.(This message has been edited by VigilEagle04)

Eh, when it comes down to it, I only care about accuracy on a couple of my uniforms, and those are the ones where a)I will be dealing with section/area, region, or national people, and b) I am acting in my district role. For my unit level uniform, I will put stuff on that doesn't belong. There is definitely a patrol patch on my adult uniform. I have a Trained strip that says Curmudgeon, and an interpreter strip that says Yankee (from Pennsylvania, living in Virginia, the youth gave it to me at one CoH, it was pretty funny). Now, I do have a more prim and proper unit uniform, but that's just not as fun to wear.

There is a time to be a stick-in-the-mud, and a time to have fun, IMO. If you want to put something on your uniform not approved, by all means, go for it. Just when you go that district/council dinner or you're at a Council of Chiefs, it's best to keep the uniform proper.

Some may disagree, and that's your prerogative. Some have said that I should use my troop uniform to set an example for the youth, and I do. When we're going to be in more contact with the public, I wear my proper uniform. But we're a full uniform troop, so even at our weekly troop meetings, we're all in uniform, and that's when I like to have fun. Some of the youth that have two uniforms have taken this approach as well.

The one thing I haven't done, though, is break out my complete spoof uniform for them, not sure if I could still fit it anyway, lol.(This message has been edited by VigilEagle04)

"I'm thinking that there might not be enough international emphasis in BSA, but I can assure you it isn't universal amongst the troops."

I agree with this statement completely. The troop I was in didn't have a ton of money, but we still made a trek every 3 years to this camp in Canada that was absolutely awesome, and we don't even live near the border. We looked at the international side of things a good bit, most kids in the troop had something from another country that they had traded for with an international scout. I know my collection contains Ireland, UK, Canada, Japan, Germany, and the Netherlands. We tried to go to things where we would meet these people.

That being said, throughout the BSA as a whole, I would say the emphasis is lacking. I have the older Scouts Canada handbook from 2001 when I was up there last. For their highest honor, you had to dig into the international side of Scouting, which I thought was really cool. I forget the actual requirements, but the other month (when I had found the book again) and I was reading it, I was kind of amazed at how much of a difference there was in that regard. I think this is one cue that we should take from the Canadians, IMHO.

"More specifically: I get that the Boy Scouts of America is a C corporation in form, legally a DC Corporation by the Congressional Charter - the same type of corporation legally as the Red Cross (in terms of non-profits) or Coca-Cola (in terms of for-profit companies). Is it for-profit or non-profit? I've always presumed non-profit (they file a form 990, after all), but sometimes I've wondered, especially when I saw that they had a subsidiary (Arrow WV) buy up the land for Summit (which seems strange for a non-profit).

The local councils - Okay, so...Legally, are they owned by BSA National as subisidiaries? Are they even incorporated separately from the BSA? Are they owned by others and then licensed by the BSA?"

One must remember, the main difference between a non-profit and a for-profit company is merely that a non-profit puts the profit back into the company, and the for-profit pays it out. Non-profit is honestly a misnomer when it comes to these things. So when you see an NPO doing something you would expect a regular company to do, that's not all that uncommon.

As for the councils, each one is registered separately with their own FEIN and they each file their own 990.

At first, I was wondering if the HA bases did the same, but through looking at the 990s for the BSA, I can see revenue from Philmont on there, same for Northern Tier (just did a quick scan), so it appears they are all under the same heading as national. Since the public disclosure form doesn't have all the extra goodies that are normally included, I can't make a positive statement to that though.

Bart,

The OA chapter/lodge should be doing that anyway. In our lodge, we visit every troop, every year. We promote the local camp, and discuss the OA, then we hold the elections for the troop for new members into the OA. I know not every lodge does it this way, but many do, and it's a great way to inform Scouts about the OA.

Well, I don't have to worry so much about that. When I use numbers it's all about money usually.

It's ok NJ, we all make those goofs. I'm sure I confuse some Europeans when I do tax returns for our company, because I know I've mixed up the commas and decimals for them (just in case some don't know, commas are used like we use decimals, and decimals like we use commas, just about everywhere else in the world when it comes to numbers).

Ack, so much bad chemistry wording here, lol.

I enjoy my hydrogen monoxide, in fact, I have a 1182.94 mL bottle right beside me. It will most likely be refilled at least once today, if not twice.

Currently, we have hydrogen monoxide falling from the sky with a mixture of carbonic acid. This is much needed, after the brush fire this past weekend especially.

When I was looking into the army, Eagle would mean you would go in as an E-2. It should be noted that many things can get you the pay grade of E-2 or E-3 before boot camp. I have had friends that did a fitness testing regimen and some other things with the local recruiter before basic and went in as an E-3.

They thought they were hot stuff until they found out that I could go in as an E-3 with increased pay without doing all that (4 years U.S. Army JROTC as well as Eagle).

Of course the BSA uniform is sexy and cool, you just have to know how to do it. This is why we held training sessions on it at the SR-7A Conclave for a couple years, lol.

Please note, it was not actually about that, it was just titled that. The focus was more about some of the lesser known things about the BSA, and also some proper uniforming guidelines that are often overlooked. We just decided to name it that for some laughs.(This message has been edited by VigilEagle04)

"if memory serves one linquist I knew tried to state that Italian is the modern form of Latin as all languages do evolve over the years, see Old English, Middle English, and modern English as examples (ever try and read Beowulf in Old English? )"

This is very true, and we also can't just say modern English anymore. US English and UK English are two totally different animals. By the way, I have a copy of Beowulf in Old English, I love it. I am in no way fluent in OE, but I can read it fairly proficiently, picked it up when I was studying languages of the British Isles.

I just realized that I really do work in the right place after that statement, lol.

"Languages evolve...if they are alive (just walk around Brooklyn with an open ear). Latin is preserved like a specimen on my shelf. If preserved in alcohol, WC Fields would say that's not such a bad fate."

That's the thing though, Latin evolved to Italian before it was a dead language. Latin was preserved as such for years because it was one of those classical languages that was imperative for the learned class to know. It was the language of scholars and priests (who at the time were really one in the same). It was widespread due to the influence of the Roman Empire. All these things have lead to Latin being preserved as a dead language, as opposed to Aramaic, Old English, or other dead languages. It even swallowed up the ancient Greek languages.

"Um, not quite VigilEagle04. If they were equally qualified and experienced they would have the same experience."

That was my mistake for not wording it better, as it should have said "equally qualified and experienced in all other areas" which would show that everything was on par until the Eagle. Even with the Eagle, it shows project leadership, as that must be displayed for the project itself, whether they were a Librarian/Historian/what have you. Now if the other candidate presented something else that showed leadership experience to even the playing field with the Eagle, then we're back at a tie.

The key is to ask about the responsibilities in those positions as well. If I know someone was in Scouting (Girl or Boy Scouts), captain of a sports team, officer in an organization like FFA, FBLA, things of that nature; it would be key to ask what was their scope of responsibility. A person being Eagle just allows me to know they were in Scouting, and to know about what they did specifically to accomplish that goal. I'm an Eagle, and I have it on my resume, but I don't have Vigil Honor for the OA, or Founders Award, or my experience as Lodge Secretary, VC, or Chief and all that I did in those roles. Nothing about me being CP/UE chairman and coordinating with all of the chapter chiefs to insure all troops in the Council were visited by our teams, elections or not. There is nothing about me being a Conclave Vice-Chief and running a program area for a statewide event. Nothing about my time as ASPL or SPL, or planning a district camporee as a Scout when it was my unit on the rotation for hosting.

Like many things on a resume, the Eagle Scout being mentioned is mainly just a jumping off point for more questions, at least from what I've seen in interviews, whether the interviewer, candidate, or just an observer.

When I was young and the church going type, we had no flags in church, at all. I was raised Church of the Brethren, and things like that are quite verbotten.

As far as if it is there and the display of it, the Flag Code is a set of guidelines. While they are laws, they are not enforceable according to the Supreme Court as doing so would violate the freedom of speech in most cases. Therefore, any laws related to the display of, or what is done to the flag, are not enforced. If they were, anyone wearing a t-shirt with an American flag on it would be in trouble.

"Now being an Eagle could be interpreted as implying that the scout is religious or male."

True on the religious part, though since any religion is accepted by the BSA so long as their is a belief in a higher power, that could be tough. For the male thing, if the GSUSA Gold Award is held to the same esteem, there really is no argument there. This could be said for the religion aspect as well, as I am sure there are more secular groups that have something similar to the Eagle or Gold.

It all goes back to what I said earlier. If it is treated as experience in leadership and project management, then you're good to go. I mean, if you have two equally qualified and experienced candidates, but one is an Eagle and the other is not, the Eagle Scout has a little more experience.

"You should be able to get FC, maybe Star, join venturing and complete your Eagle if you wanted to work really hard."

The cut off is still 18 for Eagle, whether in Venturing or not. It's still not doable. He could work for the Silver and/or Ranger awards though.

As for the OP, I agree with others who have said don't make it into a race to get ranks. Focus on picking up the skills and knowledge that will be available over the coming year. Maybe become an ASM after you turn 18. You won't be able to work on rank advancement, but you will be able to learn and have fun all the same, just as an adult instead.(This message has been edited by VigilEagle04)

Here's my take on it, and some of it has been said already, but these are just my 2 cents.

When/if I have a son, surely he will be joining Scouting. I hope my son would get the same out of Scouting that I did, but if it's not in the cards for him, it's just not. I will do what I can as a parent to insure the best possible experience, but once he hits Boy Scouts, that cord is cut. If I were to be asked for assistance, sure I would lend a hand, but part of the task for achieving Eagle is being motivated to do it.

As a Scouter, I would do my best to insure a safe and fun program. Something that would provide the necessary knowledge and resources that I could provide for moving along the trail to Eagle. But when that Scout is Life, it is up to them.

This is how it was done for me, at least with the adult leadership in the troop for most of my tenure. At the tail end of it, I had leadership that hindered my progress and I had to seek assistance from someone on the District level. Anyway, the Scouters of my youth didn't push at all. They were there if you had a question, they may ask every couple of months or so about how things were going with it, but mostly they just stayed out of it. The reason given, when I asked a couple of them recently, was that because the Eagle rank is an achievement for the boy. He has to really want it for it to mean something. There was only one eagle amongst them, but one was a Life Scout before he aged out. Those two came up with this little plan they had. They knew what the pressure was like, and they knew the regrets, and they wanted to make sure every Eagle they produced earned it because they wanted it.

"But, I know others say that other management courses have used similar training excercises."

From what I've gathered from snippets here and there about Wood Badge, it sounds like it's very similar to NLS these days. I saw mention of the "Win All You Can" game which brought back memories from my NLS experiences for sure.

BadenP,

I don't know about that, and with many things, I think it is up to interpretation. I work for an international, public corporation, and it not being allowed to be taken into consideration is not something that has been said here, and I know several hiring managers who do. Our General Counsel knows about it, and has been asked specifically about it (it came up during a meeting about the hiring process) and he found no issues with it. The way he and the HR Director stated it, it was how it was taken into consideration. If you have someone going into a leadership role, or a project supervisor,or something of that nature, the Eagle Scout and Gold Award can be viewed as valid experience when it comes to those things.

General Comments:

I have the Eagle Scout on my resume, but I put it down in the "Professional Memberships" section. Right above the Virginia Society of Certified Public Accountants sits National Eagle Scout Association. Yeah, it's a stretch to call it a professional membership, but everyone who has seen it has had no problems with it being there.

"Tell them you didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings by choosing and just go fishing instead :-)"

That is a good idea right there.

I could most likely go into an exceedingly long diatribe about how to handle this that would most likely go above your head if you don't have any finance/accounting background. My recommendation in place of that is to listen to what others have been saying.

The only thing I will comment on is for the signatures. The BSA states that it should be the Treasurer, Secretary, Committee Chair, and Scoutmaster/Cubmaster. Scoutfish mentioning Asst. Treasurer (never had a committee large enough for that, lol) and CoR are good optionals.