blw2

In 1972 total membership was 6,524,640 when the New Scouting Program, which took the Outing out of Scouting, was introduced, then

1974: 5,803,885

1975: 5,318,070

1976: 4,884,082

1977: 4,718,138

1978: 4,493,491

1979: 4,284,469, SOS sent to Green Bar Bill (William Hillcourt) who returned from retirement to write the 1979 edition of Scout Handbook. Membership decline stopped and reverses.

1980: 4,326,082

1981: 4,355,723

1982: 4,542,449

1983: 4,688,953

1986: 5,170,979

 

Youth Soccer's dynamic growth filled a void during this period.

 

2005: Government (public schools, bases) sponsorship ends due to our discrimination. Access to government facilities will also face challenges.

 

I agree the "Pack program" is a burnout. GSS is overdone. Where did the adventure and "scout-run" go?

 

Despite an increase in the US youth population, we never regained the membership numbers of the late 60's. I have said we need to get back in the public schools as that is where the kids are, but maybe we are too late. High schools in my area are successfully running their own outdoor clubs with far less hassle. It's funny, the better schools around here require school uniforms, have a student honor code, recognition, leadership training (FIRST,Hugh O'Brien, Lions/Kiwanas Club, State Youth,...), teachers/coaches/mentors, community service requirement for graduation, outdoor program. Are we being out-scouted?

 

I also worry about the affordability and financial sustainability of our four high adventure centers, as well as settlements for abuse lawsuits.

 

links:

http://historyofscouting.com/history/history-1970.htm

http://historyofscouting.com/history/history-1980.htm

 

My $0.01 for rambling,

What do the numbers look like since 1986?

How sad. An aweful way to learn how important it is to spread out if you don't have a grounded structure to shelter in.

but it said that the scouts were all in a shelter. Just didn't say what sort of shelter.

.....Over the years I have had a fairly substantial number of scouts that always have a book, or sometimes more than one, with them on outings and at summer camp. On occasion, they have had to be asked to please put it away while we did an activity; and it is rather nice to see a boy leaning on a tree in the woods reading. What has often been the case in that regard in the families is that TV was either not allowed (in a few cases) or drastically monitored; same with computer related things as the age has developed. Most did not have phones until high school, and they were very limited plans, meant for real needed use only. While they all relished visiting other kids without those limitations (the overheard grapevine), they mostly were more polite, better at things in general because they actually read instructions and the book maybe, and did well in school. Many also were involved in sports, though they tended towards the more singular type such as track or wrestling.

......

I do now have a bit of a problem with the video games and so on becoming a distraction, even when they are not actually there. A few scouts cannot talk about anything else it seems, if not given a specific challenge or goal. They will generally not argue about going back to the task at hand, though they need to be monitored closely, which is the PL and SPL biggest challenges now.

......

I'm just going back and reading, or re-reading this thread.

You brought up several varied points in your post, but some really make me think....

I would so much rather see a boy leaning against a tree reading, than playing with technology..... but what I see more of is a boy or boys huddled up in a tent with a video game, with other cubs that didn't bring their games or tablet computers huddled around watching and wanting a turn. Our CM's sons are the ones with all of the latest gadgets, and it's usually around their tent where you find this huddle. On a campout, I view this tech as a sort of cancer. On a camp out last year, I had my son leave his tech at home. Unfortunately, other boys had theirs. I asked my son to go climb a tree or something, but it's hard when he wants to be right in the huddle!

I wish I could drive a removal of that cancer from our pack, but as mentioned, our CM, as well as other leaders, are the tech crowd and I think view the tech as a way of getting the boys out of their hair so they can burry themselves in their own smartphones.

Your point about TV on the home front is interesting. I was raised without much limit on TV. I have always contented that a kid can learn from TV, even stupid fiction. I feel that I was able to put myself in the situations of the story line and learn from it...... Situations that I may not otherwise find myself in..... shows like Andy Griffith, Brady Bunch, Munsters, Beaver, Lucy, etc.... usually had some sort of moral or social lesson

I think even the newer ones that my kids watch now that aren't nearly as "wholesome", can be educational to a degree.

Still, I do agree with your point that generally speaking kids with stricter limits tend to be more polite and socially well adjusted.

My wife and I limit our kids with TV & tech, but MAYBE not nearly enough.... I'll have to give this some thought for sure.

We actually see this milestone as three separate events. 1) the Scouts who are eligible receive their Arrow of Light 2) all Scouts "graduate" from the pack 3) those Scouts who have chosen to join a troop cross the bridge and are greeted by their Scoutmasters and SPLs. We have both used and not used the bridge for our graduates who are not moving on to Boy Scouting. They are still passing out of the pack and onto another stage of life. We had their parents meet them at the end of the bridge.

I have to admit I like the "idea" of separating all of it out. I am finding the way our pack does it looses a lot from each individual "event". I'm guessing that logistically splitting into three separate evolutions might be tough though.

The way we do it, everything happens at B&G, and we typically do that it January.

The whole idea of what B&G is completely lost, replaced with crossover. Before I started trying to teach folks what B&G is, I really don't think any of the leadership or parents even know that B&G traditionally happens in February and is traditionally a celebration of the anniversary of scouting and the birthday of the pack. To them, B&G = AOL & crossover. It's ALL about the WEBELOS.

maybe 4 distinct separate ceremonies for each

1) arrow of light

2) graduating cub scouts

3) bridging to a troop

4) B&G

We do two separate ceremonies. Arrow of Light is a Cub Scout ceremony and is attended by the entire pack. We hold it a few weeks in advance of the scouts leaving to join the troop. I like this because it allows the scouts who earn the highest award in Cub Scouting to actually wear the highest award in Cub Scouting while part of the Cub Scout program. Separating the ceremonies also allows AOL to be awarded as it is earned, as good scouting methods intend. And finally, it allows the scouts to shine as role models for the pack. Crossover/Bridging is a Boy Scout ceremony and only the scouts joining that particular troop attend, thus eliminating the awkwardness you've run into. Our associated troop welcomes the new scouts at their spring court of honor. Prior to separating the two ceremonies, the scouts who were not moving to the troop simply sat down in the audience during that portion of the program.

They may not all be cut from "roll model" cloth, but I'll bet the vast majority of them picked up a few things along the way.....

As long as they are good kids, even an average older accomplished boy can be outstanding role models to younger boys.

When we hadn't had a son in the Boy Scout program that Scout Master conference was a mystery. In fact I think the CC called talking to a group of 20 Webs and parents a SM conference. (The shirt was tan....we didn't know, or perhaps we were in a rush or they were busy) Second time around (with different troop) we made sure the Webs had good conferences with the SM. I don't think the SMC is described at all in the Webelos handbook.

 

An outdoor activity with a Boy scout troop can be a day hike from the cub camp to the boy scout camp and a tour. (We did this better the second time around also -- invited ourselves to the district fall camporees.) I think it does come down to the Pack and Webelos den leader knowing the Boy Scout program. And the troop understanding the Webelos program and making a plan for recruitment. Not every SM or ASM was a WDL.

 

- AK

Most of us are just winging it and not even getting den specific direction form our 'elders' in the pack!

We do two separate ceremonies. Arrow of Light is a Cub Scout ceremony and is attended by the entire pack. We hold it a few weeks in advance of the scouts leaving to join the troop. I like this because it allows the scouts who earn the highest award in Cub Scouting to actually wear the highest award in Cub Scouting while part of the Cub Scout program. Separating the ceremonies also allows AOL to be awarded as it is earned' date=' as good scouting methods intend. And finally, it allows the scouts to shine as role models for the pack. Crossover/Bridging is a Boy Scout ceremony and only the scouts joining that particular troop attend, thus eliminating the awkwardness you've run into. Our associated troop welcomes the new scouts at their spring court of honor. Prior to separating the two ceremonies, the scouts who were not moving to the troop simply sat down in the audience during that portion of the program.[/quote']

 

I like your idea about giving the boys a chance to actually wear their arrow on the cub uniform. It would actually be nice if this could happen a significant time prior to crossing out..... for the whole role model thing, etc..

Regardless, our pack has a long tradition from before my time of the B&G being more about the cross over than what the B&G is supposed to be. We do the crossover immediately after the arrow of light ceremony. The boys not crossing, just don't cross and are now part of the audience. Kind of sad really, they are really part of the audience and in affect not even "Cub Scouts" anymore.....

Maple has a much higher density that pine, and is typically much harder and stronger. By my thinking it would offer better design options such as very small cross sections as opposed to pine that may break.

Regardless, I think that's one of those rules that's nearly impossible to check for or enforce..... and for most situations won't matter anyway.

Regardless, I think it boils down to a scouts honor thing & I think it's a shame with all of the store bought kits, store bought speed axles, etc....

I'm not opposed to dads doing a lot of work on their cars, but for me and my son he is an integral part of the design team and has a hand in every step..... from cutting, sanding, painting, alignment. I think that's kind of the idea.... Dad showing, helping, and working together. Some of those lessons are even about doing your best and spending some significant time and effort in planning and execution if you want to excel. These aren't lessons really taught by the same day derby concept.

what new uniform? I haven't heard that there was a change in the mix. When is it expected?

I see that this is a very old thread......

Personally, I sure wouldn't get caught up in counting years and months..... especially for cubs It's not like you pay is based on tenure!

For me, I'd figure it based on school grade or "rank" for Cubs

1978-1979.... likely 2nd grade = wolf = year 1

1979-1980..... Bear= year 2

1980-1981..... WEBELOS= year 3

1981-1982..... WEBELOS = year 4

so 4 years in Cubs, assuming of course you were active the whole time.....

For scouts, I guess I would just count years based on the calendar, probably rounded by the half year ..... so 6Y 9M would be a 7 year pin...... although by the book it should probably be the 6 year pin...... If it were 6Y 1M I wouldn't feel right about wearing the 7 year pin..... but as I said, why would it really matter?

what new uniform? I haven't heard that there was a change in the mix. When is it expected?

duplicate post.... I'll copy my comment into this thread since it has more replies. maybe the other will be cleaned up:

I'm in the same place as ADL, transitioning to Bear. I haven't gotten to that point yet, but apparently it's not required. Good, because it is silly to bore them to tears repeating stuff......

....but what does it hurt?

We have found is that the boys don't really get it when it comes to formal complex things like flag ceremonies. They are boys and are at best only half paying attention.

Our new DL took over half way through the wolf year. Something he's been doing and I have been supporting is doing a flag ceremony at every meeting.... more than just the pledge.

We have a small US flag and a Den flag on shorter poles, and I made some simple little flag pole stands. At almost every meeting, we run a quick little indoor ceremony where the color guard will march the flags forward, cross the colors, etc.... It takes almost no time from the meeting, and with more and more practice, the boys are getting better. Even still after many den meetings, they still flubbed it at our last pack meeting.....well actually, they flubbed the closing script which we don't practice nearly as often as the opening.

When the weather is nice, we sometimes do our meetings outside. There's a flag pole in front of the school and it's no big deal to clip the flag on and run it up. Doing it as a den the second time could be a good review, simple, and quick. I wouldn't think that it needs to be a big drawn out formal production with every boy getting a turn. Just part of a normal meeting.

I have yet to see a cub scout color guard that couldn't use some improvement.... even when the "standards" are reduced to a 7 year old level.

I'm in the same place as ADL, transitioning to Bear. I haven't gotten to that point yet, but apparently it's not required. Good, because it is silly to bore them to tears repeating stuff......

....but what does it hurt?

We have found is that the boys don't really get it when it comes to formal complex things like flag ceremonies. They are boys and are at best only half paying attention.

Our new DL took over half way through the wolf year. Something he's been doing and I have been supporting is doing a flag ceremony at every meeting.... more than just the pledge.

We have a small US flag and a Den flag on shorter poles, and I made some simple little flag pole stands. At almost every meeting, we run a quick little indoor ceremony where the color guard will march the flags forward, cross the colors, etc.... It takes almost no time from the meeting, and with more and more practice, the boys are getting better. Even still after many den meetings, they still flubbed it at our last pack meeting.....well actually, they flubbed the closing script which we don't practice nearly as often as the opening.

When the weather is nice, we sometimes do our meetings outside. There's a flag pole in front of the school and it's no big deal to clip the flag on and run it up. Doing it as a den the second time could be a good review, simple, and quick. I wouldn't think that it needs to be a big drawn out formal production with every boy getting a turn. Just part of a normal meeting.

I have yet to see a cub scout color guard that couldn't use some improvement.... even when the "standards" are reduced to a 7 year old level.

Thanks for letting me see things more calmly. I'll make my son label his rock collection and bring it to pack meeting. I also figure checking my oil and tire pressure every day for two weeks will be beneficial to both him and myself. (Me- so I know the levels are okay and him so hopefully after so much checking, he'll do it when he has a car to care for.)

I do however think that you can live happy by feeling that your initial thoughts were correct..... perhaps just not the most cheerful approach....

I think many were busting your chops a little hard, since it's clear that they are trying to make up rules and are apparently not even trained.

In the end though, if you can teach your boy to cheerfully comply since it's not such a big deal and certainly not going to hurt either of you in any way.....it will be good lesson in going with the flow and reducing stress and friction.

Just to stir the pot..... Uniforms may not be required, but from the link that Basement provided....

For these reasons, among others, all parents should emphasize to their Scouts the importance of wearing the correct and complete uniform on all suitable occasions.

.....AND.....

DO NOT mix uniform parts with non-uniform clothing, such as wearing a uniform cap with other clothing or wearing the uniform shirt with blue jeans. The uniform should be treated as a unitâ€â€worn in its entirety, or not at all.

I really wish the BSA would start a kindergarten age program, my youngest son is 5 and in Kindergarten and he sat in the Tiger Den all year and there was not a single thing he wasn't able to do, he knew the law and promise by his second meeting and was better then some of our bears. We gave him a certificate for making all requirements and he will get his bobcat at out welcome back Pack Meeting since he will officially be a tiger. We did a membership drive at a Vol Fire Co open house and you wouldn't believe how many Kindergarten age kids are looking for activities. The BSA is really missing out

I agree about the missed opportunity with Kindergarten..... It will be good I think if this Lions Scout thing works out.... With one potential problem, and that is of burn-out. I wonder if with the Tiger program, if Cub Scouts is already a bit too long and a bit too broad brush.

Maybe, just maybe it could be a better program overall if it were focused a bit more on "high adventure" stuff for the older boys. Maybe more fun and less burn out all around before the boys get into Boy Scouts.....

I actually wish that these guidelines would be re-written for clarity, and published for easier access.

Not for the lack of trying, but when my some started tigers, I was many many years our of scouting. I just missed the thing about the crest being halfway between the pocket and the shoulder seem, so I sewed it on his shirt close like the diagram shows.... but I got it so close that there's not room for his religious medal knot.

By the time I took a leadership role, I had come across this centered "rule" and sewed mine on accordingly..... but if I wear the shirt with no necker under the collar, the collar drapes over to cover the crest..... looks bad. Should have pinned it on and tried on the shirt before sewing!

blw2, your scouts aren't old enough yet..........but boys absolutely positively lose their minds when girls are around. My normally in control SPL, turns into a hormone raging lunatic...

 

I don't know if the US male way of treating women or what it is.. I simply don't know, and the way some of the teen age girls dress, goodness gracious......

 

I don't profess to have an answer....

 

blw....here is a suggestion, we experimented with it in the Pack....We ran a BPSA den in our Pack for the Girls, making an effective sib den.... The problem is with folks to run it......BPSA it is more important than in the BSA to have scout skills...... I refused to let her run the cub scouty crafty crap and award them Cub scout ranks......just not right in my book...... so in a short period the experiment failed. The gal was registered as a den leader with the Pack so background checks and stuff were done......

Yeah, Cubs for sure aren't old enough.... but I see what you mean. That's why I think it needs to be separate. For me it's really about the program being offered for girls.... with maybe some come together for family trips that we do together anyway in cubs. Too bad your experiment failed. Seems like a good potential solution on the cub level anyway..... But to work, I think it would have to be more official and on-book.

As an active cub scout dad with a rising Kindergarten aged girl and her 2 year old little sister.... I find this an interesting thread.

 

I've ben in contact with our CO's GS leader a few times re. recruitment efforts in the parish. haven't met her, just email and a couple phone calls. My last call to her was to get info. to sign up my daughter in the daisy program next year. She asked if my wife would be interested in leading a daisy 'den' or whatever they call it, since they don't have any active girls that age.... Noticed that she conspicuously didn't ask my availability for leadership.... hum, strike 1. (I didn't push it, figured that's a question for a different day...)

 

Asked about camping, and they don't really. Sleep overs at MOSH, stuff like that..... strike 2.

 

I've heard things about GS ties to planned parenthood and such..... Big strike 3.

 

..... and based on my recent observations of no uniform and no coherent identity or focus, I'm not thinking too highly of the program.

... but I want Cub Scouts for my daughter so I'll continue to try and see how it goes for now....

 

 

I really wish that BSA would structure the program to have Girl dens in the pack, and come up with something that would work on the troop level..... I can see the need for it to not be co-ed, but maybe parallel troops that come together occasionally???

Whatever it is, this to me seems like so much more of an issue that needs attention, than the big hubbub about gays.

Worried about recruitment and headcounts BSA? You are missing a huge market potential!!!

The thing is, Drudge just collects headlines. he doesn't write the stories and he sure doesn't make the news.

Fox and Friends, while I haven't seen it in year, isn't any different that any other talking heads static show..... just conservative folks instead of liberal....

and the 700 Club????/ Man, is that still around? Not even exactly sure what that was.

I have no idea actually, where I first heard this.... but 10 seconds with google, and here's a clip of a CEO of GSA (or maybe she's former CEO, I have no idea....

http://www.speaknowgirlscouts.com/index.php?p=1_20_Planned-Parenthood-Connection

Not exactly a criminal addition, but there is no doubt that they have a partnership. now how much of the story that they give money to them is true, I don't really know...... and really, that doesn't matter.....

it's the black mark against them that I'm writing of.....

I'm in Florida. Doesn't get more humid than that!.... well maybe in Viet Nam or the Amazon......

Our district race is run on a wood track.

A coworker's Awana club's race is on a wooden track (with no timers)

A friend's pack runs on a wooden track

I'm sure there are many more..... And they have been running on wood tracks since the beginning.....

Oh, and about the pants not holding up for boys. I bought the size to fit him as close as reasonable as a Tiger, not oversized. I wanted him to be sharp, and not baggy.

Anyway, two years now, and he's just outgrown the switchback pants. They've held up fine and he's even wore them some on non-scouting days! & he plays in the dirt with the best of them.... the shirt still looks fine too.

I just haven't had the issue with poor quality of the uniforms.....

In 17 years of working with Cub Scouts, I have heard very few (if any) complaints about the uniform. The Tigers love it. The older boys tend to get whiney, but then they get whiney about everything as they get older! They still wear their uniforms.

 

The short sleeve Cub shirt isn't really any hotter than a regular shirt, and Cubs have the options of buying shorts, or the zip-off Switchback pants. The problem with Cubs is a lighter weight uniform will not last a week. Especially the pants. Little boys seem to be highly affected by gravity. They spend a good portion of their time on their knees, and/or skidding across floors/sidewalks/etc. You need something extremely sturdy.

 

As others have stated, a Pack t-shirt for active activities is also a viable way to go.

 

Faith - for the slipping neckers, tie a knot, or put a rubber band, under the slide,

If they are doing some horsing around, my son usually brings his necker and woggle to me to put in my pocket. Sometimes I tell him to put it in his pocket!

With a homemade woggle, or my old liberty bell woggle, I've done the knot thing and the rubber band. Both good options.

Interesting situation..... I think it better for the boys to not be admitted until the 1st grade.....

 

On a parallel note, I was thinking about something just the other day when I for some reason pulled out my old BS Handbook. At B&G when our pack does it's annual crossover, my son won't technically be old enough for Boy Scouts.

Checking the modern standards, per the BSA web site

If you're a boy age 11, or at least 10 and have completed the fifth grade, or have earned the Cub Scout Arrow of Light Award, to 17 years old, the time for a real adventure is now.

At crossover time, assuming of course that my son sticks with it and wants to cross over..., he'll be IN the 5th grade and will be 10 years old. So if he doesn't earn the AOL, he'll not technically be allowed to cross over I guess...... but he was perfectly "by the book" to join as a Tiger in the 1st grade. Kind of a loop hole for sure where BSA ages don't mesh well with the school systems.....

So he's one of the youngest in the class, and one of the youngest in his den, but he fits right in with all of them..... in fact excels.

 

BUT, while his age is on the low end, his ability and maturity fall more in step I think with the school grade level. This is why I think the OP's situation with kindergarten kids is a bad fit.....

Since I'm active, I'd say odds are low that my son won't push through the AOL. If he's not motivated to finish the AOL, then he's not likely to be interested in continuing anyway. But I do know other boys that are so active in other things, sports, music, church, and on and on. They may enjoy scouting and do well, but just not earn that arrow due to lack of time..... or if they have a hard time with parental conflicts, etc....

Interesting situation..... I think it better for the boys to not be admitted until the 1st grade.....

On a parallel note, I was thinking about something just the other day when I for some reason pulled out my old BS Handbook. At B&G when our pack does it's annual crossover, my son won't technically be old enough for Boy Scouts.

Checking the modern standards, per the BSA web site

If you're a boy age 11, or at least 10 and have completed the fifth grade, or have earned the Cub Scout Arrow of Light Award, to 17 years old, the time for a real adventure is now.

At crossover time, assuming of course that my son sticks with it and wants to cross over..., he'll be IN the 5th grade and will be 10 years old. So if he doesn't earn the AOL, he'll not technically be allowed to cross over I guess...... but he was perfectly "by the book" to join as a Tiger in the 1st grade. Kind of a loop hole for sure where BSA ages don't mesh well with the school systems.....

So he's one of the youngest in the class, and one of the youngest in his den, but he fits right in with all of them..... in fact excels.

BUT, while his age is on the low end, his ability and maturity fall more in step I think with the school grade level. This is why I think the OP's situation with kindergarten kids is a bad fit.....

What is a "venture Patrol"?

I thought Venturing was some sort of explorer outfit separate form Boy Scouts that has a different focus or interest, such as aviation explorers....

Seems like all together to much overlap and competition between the same interest. Like a company selling a product against itself.....