blade1158

It's great to see so many forum members going to the Jamboree next year. I haven't been since 1985 and can't wait to get back.

Eammon, thanks for the equipment ideas, I'll pass them along to our council's contingent scoutmaster, who just happens to be my father.

My family will have three generations at the Hill next year, my father, me, on subcamp activities staff and my nephew as a member of the jambo troop.

The two jamborees I attended in the 80's were two of the greatest experiences I've ever had and I expect next year to be just as great. I am curious, however, how the jamboree will look on the adult side of things. I attended 1981 as a scout and 1985 on subcamp youth staff. Being there as an alleged adult will be new for me. Anyoune out there been to jamborees as both a youth and adult have any insight?

The campaign hat certainly makes a statement. I wear mine nearly every outing and to dinners, banquets and the like.

This summer our troop ran a Brownsea 22 course for our scouts and each received a campaign hat. When we took 12 of these scouts to a week of summer camp later in the summer and when we showed up at flag lowering in full uniform with staves and campaign hats, we did get alot of looks.

Love that campaign hat!

wxfcstr,

I think that only those who are participants or staff should wear a jamboree emblem of any kind. We are the ones making major investments of both time and money to go to the jamboree, this can be a commitment that can last a couple of years. I started saving nearly a year ago, I serve on my council's jamboree committee, I will have some kind of staff training this fall. Participants will have pre-jamboree training as well as other activities. The jamboree is the BSA's premier event, once every four years. Going as a participant or on staff, in my opinion, is a very big deal and wearing a jamboree emblem should reflect that. Visiting just doesn't measure up.

I do agree with Scoutmaster253, national won't pass up the opportunity to make money by selling a visitors patch.

Even though I am a patch collector, it isn't about the patch or its potential value. I collect because I like patches, not because they may be worth something. The patch represents the event and indicates that one has participated in it. And patch trading, if done in the proper spirit, allows you to talk to alot of people from all over the country.

Eamonn, a couple of 2005 Jambo patches have already appeared on ebay. One went for around $40, the other auction didn't reach the reserve set by the seller.

I'll be in subcamp 12, activities and mobilization staff.

wxfcstr and Scoutmaster253,

I have the good fortune of serving on staff for next year's National Jamboree and have received my first jamboree patch. It is the same as the adult patch that Scoutmaster253 mentions. It looks like there will be a youth and adult patch with the only difference being the size. I have seen no visitor patch and hope there isn't one.

SWScouter,

Perhaps my use of the word "joke" was a bit too strident. Please allow me to clarify. I believe that the structure of the Cub Scouter training knot insignia should reflect that of the Boy Scouter's, one for Cubmasters and one for the other Cub positions with different requirements for each respective position. More than one of the awards could be earned, but only one knot would be worn, using devices to denote multiple awards. I refer, of course, to the Scouter's Key and the Scouter's Training Award. What I think is silly is having a separate award and knot insignia for so many different positions.

I agree that every Cub Scouter should make every effort to fulfill the requirements to earn the awards. Every unit would get better trained, more active and more effective Scouters

Eamonn,

hearty congratulations to your son and to you. Just tell him from me, an old Vigil to a new one, that his service has only just begun. The Vigil Honor isn't a destination, it's a starting point.

I say these things because my Vigil means a great deal to me. It was completely unexpected and my father served as my Vigil guide. A very special and meaningful experience. And now that I'm back as a Scouter, it's meaning is even deeper.

As to the sash, I've always cleaned mine after soiling. But different lodges have different customs.

Scoutingus,

you read more into my post than was there. I didn't write, nor did I imply, that knot insignia are a joke, only the majority of the Cub knots. The honors and awards that other knots represent are certainly no joke. I wear my knot insignia with pride and, I hope, humility. I hope every Scouter who chooses to wear such insignia will do the same.

Why bring military or police honors into this topic? What I wrote didn't mention or in any way reference such honors, nor do they have anything to do with this thread.

Knot insignia represent major achievements, awards and honors, Eagle Scout, religious emblems, Silver Beaver, Hornaday Award, Scoutmaster Award of Merit and others. BSA Lifeguard, 50 Miler Award, Historic Trails Award, etc., while fine achievements, just aren't in the same category. And, as previously mentioned, they already have insignia for recognition, nothing else is needed. Even honors that ARE in the same category as the aforementioned, specifically the Vigil Honor and the Founder's Award, do not have accompanying knot insignia, nor should they. They have other means to denote their recipients.

I have to go along with BW on his comments. Certainly we all like a pat on the back, but that's not why we are here. I am currently working with new Scouters, just over 2 years of experience, who are some of the finest people and hardest workers I've ever been associated with. More than likely none of them will ever receive the District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver or any other award beyond the Scouter's Training Award. The beautiful thing is they hardly know what these awards are, they aren't motivated by the desire for recognition. They're here for the boys.

More knots? You have got to be kidding! There are too many now.

The Cub knots are a joke. When I see Scouters with three or more of these, I just laugh. Only 2 are legitimate, the Cubmaster Award and the Cub Scouter Award. The other three are redundant and ridiculous. Other Cubbie positions should be recognized with the Cub Scout Award, just like multiple Scouting positions are recognized with the Scouter's Training award.

Knots for BSA Lifeguard, 50 Miler Award, Historic Trails Award? There are already proper insignia to recognize those achievements. I have also seen suggested knots for Wood Badge, Philmont, the Vigil Honor, the Founder's Award and many other things. As before, proper insignia already exist for these honors and achievements as well. New knots would only be redundant.

Oh, and before you accuse me of just being jealous of Scouters with tons of knots, I have five of my own, as well as having earned or been honored with many of the suggestions in this thread.

acco40,

the jambo name tags I have received at past Jamborees are 1" x 3.5". I have seen Scouters who attended the 2001 Jamboree wearing name tags of the same dimensions. On my uniforms I have a 1" gap between the top of my interpreter strip and the bottom of my Jamboree patch. The 1" accomodates the name tag and looks good when I don't wear a name tag. My jambo patches are centered above the pocket.

I would assume that name tags will be issued next year, but have read no formal conformation. Sorry I can't be of more help on that subject.

Owl162,

I, too, am quite attached to the wearing of the neckerchief. As you point out they are both traditional and look sharp. In answer to your queries.

1. Yes, we have adopted a troop neckerchief.

2. We wear a custom neckerchief.

3. We wear our neckerchief under the collar. No one has asked or wanted to wear it with collar turned under.

4. Our neckerchief is red with black piping and embroidered with our troop logo. We purchase the blank neckerchiefs and have them embroidered locally.

5. Boys and adults wear the same troop neckerchief. We present new scouts with the neckerchief, troop hat and handbook. Our chartering organization has recently started to purchase our neckerchiefs. As for slides, some wear the official, some don't. Some wear wooden slides, some leather, a few have worn old slides that their fathers have let them wear. I make turk's heads out of leather that I occasionally give out. Some of our boys are just now starting to build small collections of slides and other things. Our troop was started just over a year and a half ago and none of our boys have been in boy scouting longer than that. Some of us adults who were in as boys will wear a variety of slides and neckerchiefs from time to time so the scouts can get a tastes of other things.

I will wear my troop neckerchief, Philmont, Brownsea 22, 51 and 85 jambo and lodge neckerchief. I have a few slides I like to wear, all custom made by myself or others, a black leather turk's head, an old stlye fleur de lis, a Baden Powell slide, a carved scout sign given to me by a great scouter some 20 years ago and a brass arrowhead given to me nearly 25 years ago by another grand old scouter.

We wear our neckerchief any time we wear the field uniform.

Many units our area have custom troop neckerchiefs, most I have notices are embroidered. I prefer the embroidered option, they are more expensive but they look better and tend to wear longer.

As to the color that your troop is considering, while I tend to like darker colors, black is not a color I would choose to go with the scout uniform, I like a bit more color with the tan shirt. Our red with black is a great combination, distinctive and easily recognizable. My only suggestion would be to choose the colors carefully, you'll have to live with them for a long time. I've seen some really nice neckerchiefs and some that really looked, well, not so good.

Thanks for posting the information on the Master Knotter program. Your assessment of the weaknesses of the program as laid out are on target.

The idea behind the program is good, just poorly executed. I don't mind the inclusion of lashings, just rename the program. You are quite correct in pointing out that the grouping of the knots is quite haphazard and disjointed. Here are my suggestions for restructuring. It expands from just knots and includes other types of rope work.

Level one-Whipping and end knots-American whipping, English whipping, sail maker's whipping, west country whipping, overhand knot, figure eight knot, Stevedore's knot, wall knot, single Matthew Walker knot, double Matthew Walker knot.

Level Two-Knots for joining-Square knot, surgeon's knot, sheet bend, double sheet bend, slippery sheet bend, fisherman's knot, Hunter's bend, carrick bend, double carrick bend, thieve's knot.

Level three-Hitches-half hitch, two half hitches, slippery half hitch, clove hitch, timber hitch, pipe hitch, taut line hitch, rolling hitch, anchor bend, hitching tie, cat's paw.

Level four-Loops and other knots-Bowline, French bowline, bowline on a bight, man harness knot, alpine butterfly, strangle knot, sheep shank, lark's head, miller's knot.

Level five-Lashing and splicing-Square lashing, diagonal lashing, round lashing, shear lashing, tripod lashing, back splice, short splice, eye splice, monkey's fist, turk's head.

This structure organizes the knots and rope work according to function and ends with what could be considered the most difficult items, the lashings and splices. It makes for a nice progression from level one to level five. Of course some kind of hand outs showing how each knot, lashing or splice is done would be needed. These hand outs would be a nice future resource for the scout or scouter.

I have no suggestions for renaming the program or the levels, sorry. The recognition structure seems fine. I think this could be used for both adults and boys.

ManyIrons,

like Eammon, I, too, would consider myself a pretty decent man with a knot. I taught countless scouts when I was a scout and am doing it again now as a scouter.

Having some bit of information about a knot other than just how to tie it and how it is used has always been helpful for me. It helps make each knot a bit more memorable if you know a little bit about it, such as what it was used for in the old days, why it's called what it's called, etc. Having some kind of demonstration of the use of each knot also helps.

I, too, would be interested in obtaining a copy of this Master Knotter program. Any direction as to where I could get it would be appreciated.

On teaching, I get to show our whole troop how to tie the monkey's fist at our outing next weekend. May God give me patience.

ManyIrons,

like Eammon, I, too, would consider myself a pretty decent man with a knot. I taught countless scouts when I was a scout and am doing it again now as a scouter.

Having some bit of information about a knot other than just how to tie it and how it is used has always been helpful for me. It helps make each knot a bit more memorable if you know a little bit about it, such as what it was used for in the old days, why it's called what it's called, etc. Having some kind of demonstration of the use of each knot also helps.

I, too, would be interested in obtaining a copy of this Master Knotter program. Any direction as to where I could get it would be appreciated.

On teaching, I get to show our whole troop how to tie the monkey's fist at our outing next weekend. May God give me patience.

CharityAK,

at the risk of sounding like a knuckle dragging neanderthal, I agree with your assessment of the female role in scouting and respect your desire to serve behind the scenes. Just because you work behind the lines doesn't mean that your contribution isn't of immense value.

When I was a boy my troop was served by quite a few women who did wonderful work for the troop and the boys. Now that I am an assisstant scoutmaster, we have a new group of great ladies who do a tremendous amount of work for the troop who, like you, desire to remain behind the scenes. Of these ladies three regularly attend meetings in full uniform. Even as a card carrying neanderthal, I am thrilled that these women have made the commitment, and spent the money, to uniform themselves properly. All of our adult leadership, male and female, set the example. It shows the boys the commitment the adults have made and hopefully inspires them to make the same commitment. These ladies wear their uniforms not only to meetings but to boards of review, courts of honor and committee meetings as well.

Plus, I think it looks darn spiffy when we have 7 to 12 fully uniformed adults lined up at the weekly flag raising at the meeting. Again, it helps set an example.

I hope this info helps.

A little over a year ago I re-entered the fray after a decade or so away and have been more than a bit dismayed at some of the garbage that has come down from the national Scouting mount and Leave No Trace is definitely on the pile. It is disturbing evidence of the influence of the extreme environmentalist movement on Scouting. The environmentalists have been allowed to frame the debate so that if you oppose them on any point or present them with any data contradicting their own, you are labeled as one who loves dirty air and water and rejoices every time a flower gets trampled under foot.

Teaching respect and proper stewardship of the environment is a necessary thing, environmental extremism is another matter, one that must be opposed with facts. The mondern environmental movement has less to do with clean air, clean water and fuzzy animals and more to do with socialism and the indoctination of youth. Not building or cooking over an open fire is just a symptom of the disease.

acco40,

I have the same thoughts regarding Scouting, we don't gloss over our theological differences, but we realize that there are goals that we can work for together. I've known many, many scouts and scouters over the years of many, many faith traditions and there has never been any friction, we all understand the value of the program and the values we try to reinforce. I believe those values are universal; duty, honor, honesty, etc.

As for the capitalization, no slight was intended, please forgive any misunderstanding, the fault was mine.

As for my youthful education, I think that most denominations teach that they are the true faith. That teaching, however, shouldn't lead to strife, verbal or otherwise, but that is the tragic, unfortunate history of the relations between Catholics and Protestants. We can all discuss doctrinal differences in a rescpectful way that doesn't insult the other party. Rancor produces nothing. The fact is that any apologetic information I may present probably isn't going turn someone into an instant convert. It may, however, produce a little more understanding and, dare I hope, respect. There has been far too much anti-Protestant propaganda from my side and far too much anti-Catholic propaganda on the Protestant side. More listening to one another about what we believe and why can go a long way in dispelling the myths all of us hold and build some respect for each others faith traditions and produce a bit more harmony and cooperation. I know it sounds a little polyanna, but it has worked for me with scouters of other faith traditions.

Again, I appologize for any offense I may have caused.

How did you find your religion?

I am what is called a cradle Catholic, born into the faith and baptised as an infant. I practiced my faith until my late teens and fell away, like so many of all faiths. I returned to the Church in my mid-20's when I started wondering about the condition of my soul. But I still had the knowledge and faith of a child, because I had learned little about my faith and had not grow spiritually since my teens.

Was there a specific moment or person who brought you to your current religion?

Not really a specific moment, I just started wondering why the Church claims and teaches what it does. I started reading a tremendous amount of apologetics and a bit of history and it deepened my faith far more than I was expecting.

One of the truly sad things about religion in the US is the relative isolation of different faith communities when it comes to dealing with moral issues in society. We, Catholics and protestants alike, are too caught up in bickering about our theological differences when we should be confronting issues in our culture and society that threaten us all equally.

I do not mean in any way to trivialize or minimize the very real and in many cases very deep divisions between Christian faiths, only a fool would do that. I do think, however, it behooves us to work a bit more closely on certain issues such as abortion, crime, drugs, and the overall "slouching toward Gammorah" effect that is all too prevalent in American society.

How did you find your religion?

I am what is called a cradle Catholic, born into the faith and baptised as an infant. I practiced my faith until my late teens and fell away, like so many of all faiths. I returned to the Church in my mid-20's when I started wondering about the condition of my soul. But I still had the knowledge and faith of a child, because I had learned little about my faith and had not grow spiritually since my teens.

Was there a specific moment or person who brought you to your current religion?

Not really a specific moment, I just started wondering why the Church claims and teaches what it does. I started reading a tremendous amount of apologetics and a bit of history and it deepened my faith far more than I was expecting.

One of the truly sad things about religion in the US is the relative isolation of different faith communities when it comes to dealing with moral issues in society. We, Catholics and protestants alike, are too caught up in bickering about our theological differences when we should be confronting issues in our culture and society that threaten us all equally.

I do not mean in any way to trivialize or minimize the very real and in many cases very deep divisions between Christian faiths, only a fool would do that. I do think, however, it behooves us to work a bit more closely on certain issues such as abortion, crime, drugs, and the overall "slouching toward Gammorah" effect that is all too prevalent in American society.