blade1158

FB,

What is your opinion of the Roman Catholic Church based on? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

jkhny,

for initially claiming not to be a rabble rouser you certainly are doing a good job. The innitial question is valid, but the subsequent ravings are out of place.

While I am certainly not one of Bob White's biggest fans, your attack on him for his first post of this thread was totally unwarranted. He gave accurate information, not a blind defence of all things BSA as you alleg.

I'm sorry you aren't happy with your SE, maybe he's doesn't do his job well, but don't make generalizations about all SE's and all professionals. My SE is quite good as are most of the professionals currently working for may council, especially my DE and our program director/camp director, both of whom I work with closely. I've also seen my share of bad professionals, we all have. But I'm still here and they've moved on to other councils.

The SE of any council has alot on his plate, program, finance, membership, properties, legal and things I don't even know about. What drove this home to me in a profound way was when our SE spoke at a youth protection training I took. All reports of child abuse in association with the Scouts in his council go to him. To me that was a very sobering revelation that his job isn't fun and games all the time, he has to deal with some very, very serious issues. A good SE is worth what he's paid.

Eammon,

JSP isn't new. It stands for Jamboree Shoulder Patch, a variation from CSP, Council Shoulder Patch. It's one of those geeky patch trader terms. Just thought you might like to know.

Eammon,

you put it far more diplomatically than I was going to. Well done and spot on.

"Scouting becomes a business with the inevitable emphasis on finances and the bottom line."

I'm not here to defend all professionals because I, too, have known my share of truly wretched professional scouters, but I have also been associated with my share of truly fine, dedicated professionals who do care about the boys and adults in the program.

I currently have the pleasure of knowing and working closely with two of the finest professional scouters I've ever known, one our DE and the other our council program director and camp director. Both were scouts as boys, one an Eagle, one has a son currently in scouting, he also works as a volunteer with that troop, and though both do have a bottom line to meet, I have never seen it become the main focus of what they do. And, though I don't know him well, our current scout executive certainly seems to be very good at what he does as well.

I hope every volunteer will have the experience of working with such top notch professionals.

Lodge chief is not a council position, it is a lodge position. It does not require the removal of troop numbers and the wearing of silver loops. Only those whose primary registration is at the district or council level wear the silver loops. If one's primary registration is on the troop level, one wears the red loops even if serving on a district committee. I am registered as an assistant scoutmaster but also serve on the council camping committee and am associate lodge advisor, I wear the red loops.

More to the point of the thread, I'd love to see an official lodge chief position patch. Being a lodge chief is quite an honor and a very big job.

Lodge chief is not a council position, it is a lodge position. It does not require the removal of troop numbers and the wearing of silver loops. Only those whose primary registration is at the district or council level wear the silver loops. If one's primary registration is on the troop level, one wears the red loops even if serving on a district committee. I am registered as an assistant scoutmaster but also serve on the council camping committee and am associate lodge advisor, I wear the red loops.

More to the point of the thread, I'd love to see an official lodge chief position patch. Being a lodge chief is quite an honor and a very big job.

BadenP,

I hate to pick nits, but I have to question Venture patrol members wearing green loops. A Venture patrol is part of a Boy Scout troop, not an extension of a Venture Crew, thus red loops would be proper. Perhaps the name "Venture patrol" is a poor choice and needs to be changed if confusion is being created. I know Varsity Scouts wear the blaze loops, but Varsity scouting is a part of the Boy Scout program, not a separate program as is Venturing.

If you have a source for this, please cite it, I'm always willing to learn.

Proud Eagle is correct, there are two emblems available from the Catholic Church, the Bronze Pelican and the St. George. The Bronze Pelican is analagous to the District Award of Merit and the St. George analagous to the Silver Beaver. However, neither are "earnable", both are awarded on merit, similar to the aforementioned BSA recognitions.

I am in agreement with Proud Eagle that more needs to be done to encourage youth to earn the emblem of their faith. I am a Catholic in a unit sponsored by a Catholic church and have taken religious emblem councelor training. At the training it was stressed that we were to encourage all youths in our units, Catholic and non-Catholic, to earn these emblems and help them to find the proper literature and resources. The vast majority of youth that I meet with religious emblems are Catholic, I'd love to see many more Scouts of other churches deepen their faith by earning the emblem of their faith.

In my council there is a local Catholic Committee on Scouting, but I haven't seen any evidence of any of the Protestant churches with similar organizations, with the exceptions of the Methodist church, who has held a Methodist retreat the past few years. I think this is most unfortunate(not the retreat, the lack of organization). Scouts and scouters who aren't Catholic, at least around here, are sort of on their own.

I must disagree, however, with the idea of an "earnable" adult religious emblem. With the exception of the training awards, the adult recognitions are for service and merit. If we as adults have a whole group of awards we can earn, I believe it would get in the way of the service we are supposed to be giving. I'm sure we all know Scouters who are a bit too enamoured of awards the way it is, I'd hate to see it get worse.

We give example by how we live our faith. Also, those who earned religious emblems as youth can show youth what they can also earn.

"As soon as the election is completed, the unit leader may or may not choose to announce to the entire unit the names of members who have been elected."

Guide for Officers and Advisers, p. 23

The Guide for Officers and Advisers is silent on the matter of telling the troop rep the results of the election, although the phrase "announce to the entire unit" could be interpreted as the whole unit knows or none of them know.

Announcement of results seems to be a function of local lodge tradition, though the Guide gives this authority to the unit leader. In my lodge, a candidate doesn't know if he's been elected until he's pulled out of line at the call out ceremony. That's the way we've done it for over 30 years.

VAordeal,

two things.

First, your troop does not have the authority to restrict any scout under the age of 21 from voting in an Order of the Arrow election.

Second, elections are to be held only once per year, not twice.

"In Boy Scout troops and Varsity Scout teams, every active member of the of the unit under age 21 at the time of election is eligible to vote."

page 22, Guide for Officers and Advisers

As for new scouts voting, the election team should tell the troop at the time of the election that if a scout believes he doesn't know his fellow scouts well enough to cast a properly informed ballot, he can abstain. Any abstentions do not count in the vote total when calculating the number of votes a scout must receive to be elected. It's up to each scout whether he wants to vote or not. It all depends on whether the election team explains things well or not.

As for new scouts voting, the election team should tell the troop at the time of the election that if a scout believes he doesn't know his fellow scouts well enough to cast a properly informed ballot, he can abstain. Any abstentions do not count in the vote total when calculating the number of votes a scout must receive to be elected. It's up to each scout whether he wants to vote or not. It all depends on whether the election team explains things well or not.

acco40

it sounds like the problem is how your lodge runs elections, call outs and ordeals, not with the system itself. If candidates are elected in January or February and not called out until June thus having only one shot at the ordeal, that is a bit unreasonable. Maybe the leadership of the lodge needs to reevaluate how they implement the induction process so that it is more equitable.

My lodge, while far from perfect, does a pretty good job of elections, call outs and ordeals. Elections are held from late April through early June. Call outs and ordeals are held each week at summer camp. For those who didn't go through the ordeal at camp or who went out of council for camp, ordeals are also held at the fall conclave and at the spring conclave the following year. So, every candidate has three chances to complete the ordeal and be inducted. If they miss all three, they are no longer candidates and must be elected again.

A scout or scouter is a candidate after election.

Any difficulties in the time between the election, the call out and the ordeal is the fault of the lodge, not the system. Most lodges hold multiple ordeals every year. In my lodge our main ordeal is held at summer camp. We hold ordeals in the spring and fall for those who don't go through the ordeal at camp.

"Candidate status. After election, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts or adults remain candidates until completion of the Ordeal and Ordeal ceremony. If this period of candidacy exceeds one year, the candidate's name will be dropped. To become candidates again, they must be reelected. The executive committee of the lodge may extend the one year limit between election and induction if a candidate is ill or there are other unusual circumstances."

page 23, Guide for Officers and Advisers, 2004

While I post infrequently, I read this forum almost every day. The moderators are doing a fine job.

When one of our moderators lock a thread it is not censorship. Censorship is something that a government practices. We can say anything we like, but if the moderators of this privately owned site don't want to let us post it here, they are under no obligation to let us. The owner and moderators can govern the contents of this site as they see fit. If a poster doesn't like these decisions, he is free to start his own site.

Order of the Arrow program, hmmm, let's see.

Lodge conclaves, section conclaves, leadership possibilities from the chapter to the national level, important roles at summer camp (at least in my lodge), ceremony teams, multiple lodge and chapter committees, camp promotions, training of all kinds, National Order of the Arrow Conference, National Leadership Seminar, special high adventure opporunities at Philmont and the other high adventure bases, Indian Summer, OA Service Corps at national jamborees, fellowship with other Arrowmen, a myriad of service opportunities.

Wow, there really ISN'T anything to the OA program.

dan,

if you are not satisfied with your lodge's program stop whining and do something to change it. That's what I'm doing.

I returned to Scouting and the Order a little over 2 years ago after an absence of a decade and a half and wasn't all that pleased at what I saw at my first conclave back. It certainly didn't resemble the conclaves I remembered from my youth. So, when I was offered the position of associate lodge advisor last year, I jumped at the chance to help rejuvenate and improve our lodge. And, through the efforts of alot of good advisors and youth leaders we've taken several bigs steps in the right direction. Things still aren't perfect, but I have high hopes for the coming year.

Roll up your sleeves and help make things better.

I applied for staff last year and waited a little over 3 months to get letter of appointment. I wast sent a post card from the national office when they received my application.

Another gentleman from my troop had to resubmit his application because it was lost somewhere. And this guy's been on staff for the last 6 jamborees.

BW,

it's quite easy to conclude that the Order has been diluted. It is now easier to be elected, more scouts are being elected who before would not have been. Not all that hard to understand.

It's very similar to expansion in professional sports. The fewer teams, the fewer players, the better the players have to be to earn a spot on a team's roster. As more teams are added, more players are needed to fill all the rosters, players that before weren't skilled enough to make the league are now playing. Thus, dilution of the league has occured.

We hold a 3 drawings at the end of each of our meetings, the prizes are patches, mugs, pins or whatever other Scout related goodies we have about. Every scout in attendance writes his name on a slip of paper and puts in into the can. At the meeting close three names are drawn out. The catch is the person whose name is drawn must be in full uniform with his fellow scouts conducting the inspection. The boys really enjoy the drawing and it helps them remember to wear all their uniform parts.

As for the rank and merit badges, as scoutldr pointed out, these are collectible. Whatever you do with these, make sure you get a value from a collector you can trust or consult a good price guide.

ps56k and Proud Eagle,

both of you make points that I agree with.

I do believe that the Order has been diluted. I was inducted in 1979 as a 12 year old scout and was active for the next 10 years or so. During those years, as opposed to now, we had a greater number of active arrowmen in my lodge to whom membership in the Order actually meant something. Under the previous election quota system it was harder to be elected, the Order was more exclusive and therefore had at least some degree of meaning built in. I know Scouters who never were elected as scouts, they didn't become members of the Order until they were adults. One is my chapter's advisor, an Eagle Scout and Vigil Honor member.

Proud Eagle's observations are also right on. It is incumbent upon us as Arrowmen to set the example, to let non-members know what the Order is all about, that it is an honor, but it is also a responsibility. They are being elected for what they have done, that is true, but also what they are expected to do after induction, continue living and growing in Scout spirit, leadership and service.

Scouts can be trusted to make the right decision when voting on their peers for induction into the Order. But, as stated by Proud Eagle, they must have seen the proper example and be adequately informed on just what the Order is.

Unfortunately, we know that doesn't always happen. Experience tells me that too many unit leaders don't care about the Order, view it as competition for their scout's time, see it as a once a year nuisance, have a negative view of the Order and won't support the lodge. Most of the blame for these attitudes are ours. But, this also adds to the attitude that being inducted into the Order is no big deal.

But we all know that no matter the election method, the quality of the Ordeal experience or how informed a Scout is about the Order before induction, some Scouts just don't care and we will never see them again after they get the flap and the sash.

I must say I prefer the previous system, but I am doing what I can to help my lodge, which is in a bit of a rebuilding stage, to get stronger using the current system. Whining about it won't help, doing our best to live the three W's will.

The requirements for a scout to be on the ballot haven't changed, it's the number per troop that's been changed. The previous system was based on troop size, the larger the troop, the more scouts could be elected. I'm afraid I don't recall the ratios exactly, but, for example, if the troop had 15 or fewer members, only one scout could be elected, no matter how many were eligible. Now, all an eligible scout has to do is get 50% of the votes cast. So, yes, 100% of the scouts on the ballot can be elected. I don't know when this change went into effect.