ThunderFox

Quote: "The rules say that parents can attend if they so choose."

It does NOT say parents can attend if they still want to after doing all you can to discourage them!!

Put the onus where it belongs, the OA & District leadership need to select a ceremony site where parents may observe and still not detract from the ceremony.

Any level of discouraging parents from attending will grow as "protecting the Ceremony" will be the focus rather than following the rules. And then, we get another "Secret Organization" accusation that BSA does not need.

Old_OX_Eagle83

"and then act to continually undermine the program."

That sir is your opinion and is in conflict with the policies of the BSA. You signed up and signed a promise to follow the rules. End of story. Honor your promise! Its just that easy! Stop trying to build loopholes based on your opinion or legends. Rules are rules when you promise to observe them. Its not a buffet!!!

Old_OX_Eagle83

"and then act to continually undermine the program."

That sir is your opinion and is in conflict with the policies of the BSA. You signed up and signed a promise to follow the rules. End of story. Honor your promise! Its just that easy! Stop trying to build loopholes based on your opinion or legends. Rules are rules when you promise to observe them. Its not a buffet!!!

In less than two weeks this thread will be TWO YEARS OLD. Some folks want to follow the rules of The Boy Scouts of America and some want to follow the rules of Boy Scouts of Bob, Fred, Billy, John or Secret Squirrel. The thing that must be recognized is that Boy Scouts of Bob, Fred, Billy, John and Secret Squirrel do not have a charter nor a rule book to follow, so when you go that route, its a free for all, because if you have 25 Scouters you have at least 49 opinions!!!! Let this thread die, its already arthritic!!!

I think I can confident that this thread has officially been Hijacked.......sadly it did not happen soon enough as this dead horse has been flogged three times.

So, "RE: Parents attending OA Ceremonies" Rest In Peace!

Folks, There are some realities here and Opinions that do not conform to the reality are invalid. BSA National Office says parent may elect to attend. That leads to some facts:

1. Any time Scouters choose to violate the rules, those Scouters have all the liability if anything bad, horrible or lethal occurs. Even if parents being prevented to attend has nothing to do with it, they have already proven they do not follow the rules.

2. The part about ruining it for the boy is all bugle oil!!! What you are saying is our District and OA does not know how to properly organize a Scouting Event.

A. Print a pamplet that explains how parents and only parents may attend, no talking, cheering, photos ....BE INVISIBLE!

B. Stake out a Parents area and provide some sort secure admission process that eliminates additional family members joining in. Maybe an escort to the parents area is the only way to find it.

C. The pamplet CLEARLY lays out the rules..only parents, no cameras or cell phones, parents with other family members may not enter.

D. Include the contention that this is a once in a lifetime experience of a private soul-searching moment and there will not be any disturbance of the moment allowed. Your son is transitioning from boy to man and this ceremony will be forever a milestone in his journey.

E. Have Adult monitors in the parents area..call them Guides or Docents etc.

3. Now have all the best folks in the council review the drafts and compile a Council approved document. Now submit it to National for approval. Then use the dang thing!!! Communicate, Communicate....Communicate.

4. Suggest each Troop have a parent's orientation the night of OA elections, pass out the pamplet and explain the whys and wherefors. If the parents hear this info once or twice before their son is elected and can ask questions before their son is even eligible, you will go a long way to eliminating conflict because they will already accept the situation and accept the conditions if they are attending.

I know everyone is going to read this and say:

1. It can't work here

2. Thunderfox is smoking his knife sheath

3. No one will do this

4. or fill in the blank________with your own negative.

Well, in my 50+ years of Scouting I know it will work if done right. It accounts for human nature and the plan softens disagreement with knowledge while it raises the question with parents and answers it BEFORE its a concern. You are calmly explaining a situaion before the parents have a dog in the hunt so its just orienting them before they even have to address the situation.

The most common problems in Scouting arise from lack of communication. Also, Business, Marriage and all aspects of life. We owe to the boys to adopt a well thought out plan as we "Set The Example". This one is a great chance to teach your Scouts some diplomacy!!

Remember, this program is NOT for your personal opinion to allow you to deviate from the rules and regulations. It is for us as Leaders to teach an un-diluted Scouting program and maximize every learning opportunity for the boys by the rules. If Not, it becomes The Boy Scouts of Bob or Fred not The Boy Scouts of America. I have no time to give to the Boy Scouts of Marvin unless it is to transform it to Boy Scouts of America.

Folks, There are some realities here and Opinions that do not conform to the reality are invalid. BSA National Office says parent may elect to attend. That leads to some facts:

1. Any time Scouters choose to violate the rules, those Scouters have all the liability if anything bad, horrible or lethal occurs. Even if parents being prevented to attend has nothing to do with it, they have already proven they do not follow the rules.

2. The part about ruining it for the boy is all bugle oil!!! What you are saying is our District and OA does not know how to properly organize a Scouting Event.

A. Print a pamplet that explains how parents and only parents may attend, no talking, cheering, photos ....BE INVISIBLE!

B. Stake out a Parents area and provide some sort secure admission process that eliminates additional family members joining in. Maybe an escort to the parents area is the only way to find it.

C. The pamplet CLEARLY lays out the rules..only parents, no cameras or cell phones, parents with other family members may not enter.

D. Include the contention that this is a once in a lifetime experience of a private soul-searching moment and there will not be any disturbance of the moment allowed. Your son is transitioning from boy to man and this ceremony will be forever a milestone in his journey.

E. Have Adult monitors in the parents area..call them Guides or Docents etc.

3. Now have all the best folks in the council review the drafts and compile a Council approved document. Now submit it to National for approval. Then use the dang thing!!! Communicate, Communicate....Communicate.

4. Suggest each Troop have a parent's orientation the night of OA elections, pass out the pamplet and explain the whys and wherefors. If the parents hear this info once or twice before their son is elected and can ask questions before their son is even eligible, you will go a long way to eliminating conflict because they will already accept the situation and accept the conditions if they are attending.

I know everyone is going to read this and say:

1. It can't work here

2. Thunderfox is smoking his knife sheath

3. No one will do this

4. or fill in the blank________with your own negative.

Well, in my 50+ years of Scouting I know it will work if done right. It accounts for human nature and the plan softens disagreement with knowledge while it raises the question with parents and answers it BEFORE its a concern. You are calmly explaining a situaion before the parents have a dog in the hunt so its just orienting them before they even have to address the situation.

The most common problems in Scouting arise from lack of communication. Also, Business, Marriage and all aspects of life. We owe to the boys to adopt a well thought out plan as we "Set The Example". This one is a great chance to teach your Scouts some diplomacy!!

Remember, this program is NOT for your personal opinion to allow you to deviate from the rules and regulations. It is for us as Leaders to teach an un-diluted Scouting program and maximize every learning opportunity for the boys by the rules. If Not, it becomes The Boy Scouts of Bob or Fred not The Boy Scouts of America. I have no time to give to the Boy Scouts of Marvin unless it is to transform it to Boy Scouts of America.

From what I have read here, there are Good Old Boys and there are Good Old Boys. And the question is what kind of Good Old Boys are you a member of?

A wise leader knows things always change and by embracing change you can minimize it's negative impact and maximize the positive. Our Good Old Boys actively recruited new parents (moms & dads). Through our ASM-Pack Laison, we identified parents to recruit before they were even members. Because we aggressively recruit, we have Basic Training Courses that are predominately learners from our troop. We have one or two "Troop Committee" Parties a year and make sure everyone feels accepted. We do orientations there and recruiting. Our New Young Boys are very soon Good Old Boys because we work at making sure our Scouts have continuing, consistent leadership who goes by the book and make sure the Scouts can plan an exciting program as promised by Scouting.

Our PLC once decided they wanted a campout where they would compete against the patrols rather than plan and execute the campout. The GOB saw this as an opportunity to channel the eagerness of our newly tyrained leaders. We now have an annual "Mystery Campout" where our new graduates put on a Competition Camporee for our troop and all patrols compete. The concluding campfire first recognizes the new leaders' efforts and "graduation" and then climaxes with presentation of "war feathers". They are Blue, 1st, Red, 2nd and Yellow, 3rd. They have been prepared as if they would be part of a warbonnet. Why war feathers? Well, the only decent way to display them is on a Patrol flag!

Jack

Acco is correct.

The District Award of Merit is NOT the District Award of District Merit!

Old Grey Eagle,

The LDS Church makes restrictions within their observance of religious practices in accord with BSA policy as a Chartering Organization. It is not the troop PLC with CO approval. Also it is in accord with their Religion and is not discrimination of Race, Greed or Color.

Acco,

As to banning folks of certain beliefs and etnicity, you are partially correct.

If the Chatering Organization is a religious institution such as a Catholic Church, the institution, in whatever is the normal regualtory process of the insitution, may stipulate that members of the Scout troop, including adults must be Catholics. They could be more exclusive and say they must also attend their church.

But nowhere in BSA Policy are they allowed to restrict membership by race.

But now wee are off topic, and what the new thread might be is a rehash of bashing or supporting Civil Rights. But the bottom line is Scouting is for all no matter race, creed or color. So I decline to explore a self answering thread.

Acco,

You may disagree all you wish, that is your right. But it is still a violation of BSA Policy.

You are effectively saying the PLC can do whatever it wants so long as the Chartering Organization approves. But the agreement the Chartering Organization signed, a Charter Agreement, says they will NOT violate BSA Policy; so their approval of BSA Policy Violations are null & void. By the way, litigationa arising from this situation will be individual to the Chartering Organization and the troop adults. BSA has clear bans on this therefor BSA's attorneys and insurance will not defend the violators!

QUOTE:

"4 If the PLC wants a "no women" rule and that is okay with the CO - so it goes. "

This is a violation of BSA Policy.

The Patrol Leaders' Council does not have the authority to violate BSA Policy. They cannot vote to exclude adults from Troop Activities. If adults have "ruined" a campout, it is because the Adult Leaders did not orient the new parents. I suggest this process should begin when the parents visit the troop with their Webelos son. Hand them a Parents' Handbook that effectively explains Scouting to them and how they fit in. It should also include what Grownups do on Campouts. This book must make it Crystal Clear that adults DO NOT VOTE on whether or not Scouts may execute a properly planned troop activity and that includes the Troop Committee.

The following is the adult camping procedures from our parents' book:

THE ADULT PATROL

"THE OLD TIMER PATROL"

PURPOSE:

1. Provide support to the troop program and the adult troop leaders.

2. Be a positive adult role model. Boys copy adults with whom they are close;

the "Old Timer Patrol" can be an important influence for good in a boy's

life.

GUIDELINES:

A. Set the example. When camping, being clean and properly dressed, helping

with the camp chores, keeping your gear in good order and maintaining a

cheerful outlook can have more influence on a boy than you can imagine.

B. All negative behavior such as profanity, obscene, ethnic, sexist or racist

jokes, possession or consumption of alcoholic beverages is not allowed.

Smoking, Dipping and chewing of tobacco is prohibited by boys and adults.

C. Liquid fuels are not allowed for fire starting by Scout or Adult.

D. Let the Scouts learn by doing it themselves; don't do it for them just

because you know how or you can do it better. If they are bogged down,

give them a timely suggestion offered in the form of a question. This will

give them a hint toward the solution but still require them to think

through to the problem's solution.

D. Except for short friendly visits, stay out of the patrol campsites,

especially your son's campsite. When you visit, be sure to ask permission

to enter their camp (we expect this same courtesy of them).

E. At troop activities, refrain from any disciplinary action toward your son,

the troop and his patrol has rules and they will deal with him ,if needed.

If you must have words with your son or any other boy, remember that except

for dire circumstances, we praise in public and criticize in private. Plan

ahead, have another Scouter have words with your son and you return the

favor with his son. Ask yourself, were I not here, would what he did cause

a Scoutmaster phone call to you at home? If not and you jump his case

anyway, he may lose interest in Scouts.

F. The Scouts have an open invitation to the adult campsite. We welcome their

Company , but sometimes, when their stay is overly long, they need to be

reminded there is a schedule of activities they are missing or they

probably have patrol duties they need to fulfill. Some Scouts will, on

occasion, use a visit to the adult campsite to get out of their patrol

duties, especially if it is his turn for clean-up duties.

G. Be a Friend. Give praise and compliments for jobs well done and even praise

the good parts of jobs not so well done and encourage them to do better for

their own satisfaction.

F. Remember the senior patrol leader is in charge, if there is a problem

discuss it with him and the Scoutmaster; the SPL or the PLC will handle

it. If there is serious danger to life or limb, assume the role of a

guardian/parent.

Our Parents' Book has detailed description of Committee procedures besides new parent insight. It works for 70-90 boy troops and with editing, work for any troop. Drop me an email and I will send you a copy and it's copyright free.

Ol' Thunderfox

Longhorn Council

SC-149

Dan,

Careful here. Den Flags & Patrol flags have different purposes and are in two different programs. If you bring too much of "Boy Scouting" into Cub Scouting, you run the risk of damaging both experiences. I encourage you to look in Cub Scout Leader information for the correct use of Den Flags, especially Tiger, Wolf & Bear dens. Also ask some of the long time District Cub Scout Leaders.

Yours in Scouting,

Old Thunder Fox

Beavah,

I too am an old Codger (prefer Old Geezer) and I realize if a codger told the story in question about his youth, it was probably many years ago very soon after guns were invented; and I too, enjoyed the story.

The fact remains, the Scoutmaster was lucky. Given the same circumstances, there were many more bad results possible than good. Had I been in that position, it would have been sans the beer and I too, would have otherwise done what Codger's Scoutmaster had done: be personable, hospitable and try to defuse the situation and get the drunk to leave peaceably. But, there is no way I would have even considered throwing another log (beer) on the fire (drunk) and posssibly have the fire get out of control (things get worse) even if I had more logs (beer) available. It has been my experience that more alcohol does not soothe the savage breast, to butcher & paraphrase and old saying! Also, realistically, in this day and litiginous time, No Way would I serve a drunk more alcohol even if I was going to violate Scouting policy by having it with me on a Scout outing in the first place!

Codger,

What bearing does one isolated event that was entirely the wrong thing to do, that just happened to work out, have to do with what is not tolerable behavior? What your Scoutmaster did could have turned into any number of ugly felonies. The posibilities are staggering and horrifying. The least of which would have been after getting drunker, the guy drove off and ran over a Scout or had a collision on the road to wherever he was going. Your SM could be contributory in that situation or any other law breaking the drunk guy did. Scouting says no alcohol! It does not say bring a six pack, pistol and machete just in case.

(Council) Scout Executives do report to the Council Executive Board that hired them. But a (Council) Scout Executive is not autonomous so long as the Council Executive Board is happy with him or her.

A (Council) Scout Executive can be fired, reassigned or put on the promotion list by the Professional Scouter above him or her.

There is a chain of command, whether official or not, national refers to it as the hierarchy through the professionals as straight line from National Scout Executive to the District Executive and straight line for the executives (not Scout Execs) from the national president to the unit committee chair. Same lineage for program from the National Commissioner through the Commissioner Staff to the Unit Leader.

I did not indicate the Unit Commissioner is in charge of the Unit Leader. The Unit Commissioner is an emissary to the unit and not in charge at the unit level. "Chain of Command" is not my choice of words, I got if from repeated use by professionals and volunteers as an expediant (not truly accurate) description of the organizational chart.

The true chain of command is on the professional staff. But as the Key 3 is replicated at each level it forms an effective 3 column chain for professional, executive and program parts.

Lets not let nomenclature get in the way of the discussion.

We do the Annual Planning Conferenc/Junior Leader Training weekend then a revisit 6 months later when we have new leader elections and JLT. Troops do fall into ruts and as some here have said they do not know what they do not know.

At a time when we had the same problem, at our regular SM staff meeting after the troop meeting, I asked the team to come up with ideas and experiences from troops they grew up in or some other way. We compiled the list and picked things that were appropriate for our troop at that time. We divided the list so each of us had a couple of "ideas".

The next phase of my devious plan was the adults over the next couple of months would "casually" share the ideas with the patrol leader of the respective patrol they were assigned to observe. I also made "casual suggestions" to the SPL when we had conversations; especially the conference we had prior to each PLC.

At the next Annual Planning Conference the Scouts came up with some great ideas. Yes, some of them came from our adult list, but several came because the "suggestions" sparked some original concepts from the patrols. Bottom Line: our program got an injection of enthusiasm and increased participation.

One of the top ideas was "The Great River Raft Race". Each patrol had to aquire scrap materials and bring it to the campout by the river. On Saturday morning, they would build their raft from the scrap material any way they wanted it. Then mid-afternoon, the patrols would race down the river to the meeting point where the river met the lake at a campsite. Awards were presented at the campfire. The PLC had come up with a list of awards in addition to 1st, 2nd, 3rd for the race. We had awards for Scout Spirit Raft, Most Futuristic Raft, Most Seaworthy Raft and etc. Any Scout who missed that campout missed few more after that because the fun level went way up.

Even the adults had fun; photos and video allowed us to share the fun with families at the next Court of Honor.

Cheers,

Ol' Thunder Fox

It has long been a boy made policy in our troop for older Scouts to go on the annual high adventure trip; they must give leadership to the younger Scouts at Summer Camp. The founding 15 Webelos made this policy because we had to borrow two older Scouts from another troop when they went to their first Summer Camp with our loan older Scout.

They hand down the story to the younger Scouts so they know why the rule. The founders have grown, graduated and moved on, the story and the tradition remain.

(Whew!)

Ol' Thunder Fox

Vigil, I hear you!

Vigil,

I am amazed that a Roundtable Commissioner could bulldog a whole district. We have so many Type A folks in our district that the Camping Chair, Activities Chair and/or Camporee Chair would tell him to, "Get real, we will do this our way!" And then they would argue amongst themselves about before or after Mothers' Day! Hahahahaha!

Cheers Mate,

Ol' Thunder Fox

Quartermaster

SES SilverSpray

Si Habla Yiddish?

A big part of the problem, besides lack of volunteers, is the fact that very few folks know what a District is supposed to do and so have no idea how to get there.

A major clue is our org chart to begin with and its chain of command. Start with the Key 3, it is repeated at every level.

The National SE is directly in line above the Regional SE who is Directly above the Area SE who is above the Council SE who is above the District SE who is above the COR & IH. The Professional Chain

The National Chairman (pres) is directly in line above the Regional Chairman who is Directly above the Area Chairman who is above the Council Chairman who is above the District Chairman who is above the Committee Chairman. The Exaecutive Chain

The National Commissioner is directly in line above the Regional Commissioner who is Directly above the Area Commissioner who is above the Council Commissioner who is above the District Commissioner who is above the Unit Leader. The Program Chain

At each of these levels there is a committe directed by the Exacutive whose mission is support of the organization and The Program at their respective level. The chair of each sub-committe is a member of the respective sub-committee above. The Pack's advancement chair is automatically a member of the District Advancement Committee and so forth up the line with each committee.

Think about it. How strong would the program of your 30 unit district be if the advancement committee had 30 active members just like the District's other sub-committees. Each committe would train it's new members and each year the committee would suggest a chairperson to the new District Chairman. If that district advancement committee has monthly meetings seperate from the district committee meeting they could do wonderous things and report their progess at the District Committee Meeting.

If the District Commissioner reports an advancement problem in a unit at the District Committee Meeting, the 30 member Advancement committee has the resources to work with the Unit with the help of the Unit Commissioner to improve the situation and if the problem is severe enough, the District Commissioner can assign the Commissioner's Life Saving Team.

The District is a mirror of the Unit. The Unit committee supports the program (SM) guided by the Unit Chair. The District committee supports the program (DC) guided by the District Chair. The information and representation is vertical from the unit all the way to national; up and down.

Now that is a what a perfect district would be like, but "SIGH" where does that even happen. I put a PowerPoint together to teach this at our University of Scouting and everyone agreed it was the way it should be, but no attempts have been recorded that implementation was ever attempted save my attempt in my district; I failed.

Oh well,

Ol' Thunder Fox