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Tampa Turtle

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Posts posted by Tampa Turtle

  1. 17 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

    When it comes to the issuance of debt, such entities can do a lot of creative things. Nothing would necessarily (absent some written rules against such) keep them from simply issuing new debt to pay off the balloon payments. I can be rather easy to kick that can down the road if need be.

    Now interest rates are likely to be much higher then so the debt service is likely to be more expensive if they do that.

    I agree. I think as long as the actuals don't look too dire that BSA may cash in some "brand nostalgia" to get someone help them kick the can a bit longer. But I don't see how some cost escalation will not occur. 

  2. 1 minute ago, The Latin Scot said:

    Wha ..... ?!?!? :blink:

    But then ... who's supposed to carry all the water?! What if I take my 7 boys out hiking, am I supposed to carry it? My poor assistant? A mule? A llama?

    Who's supposed to carry it? 

    Am I supposed to carry it?

    I don't wanna carry it. :(



    • Upvote 2
  3. 40 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

    The persistence with which some kids will attack a log with a hatchet always fascinates me.  This will definitely be on the menu.

    I am amazed that when we set up the axe yard there is always a scout who will chop wood for hours. Every year. And with a full axe even the ADD kids REALLY focus on not chopping their toes off. I do sweat those seasons out though. We have had more injuries with carelessness with knives and hatchets.

    One boy did so long every campout he earned the nickname of "Axe" and it stuck with him to adulthood.

    • Upvote 2
  4. I have had them all. I loved Camelbaks but have punctured 3 so not for me. I have some old aluminum old school ones though I am suspect of the soldering joints. The new ones are just two heavy. I have cracked Nalgenes from dropping (though some last for years) but never my recycled Smartwater (1 liter dropped 80 feet on rock and lived) bottles. I clean them with denture tabs (a good way to clean any of the above) and might get a new one every season. I am suspicious of the plastic in my vast array of military surplus canteens-- how much can I trust the plastic in a 20 year old Hungarian army bottle? For me (and I have to carry a lot of water) is the weight of the container.

    But in the end "Hike your own Hike". Gives you something to debate while meeting on the trail. Along with boots (or not), backpacks, and tents-vs-tarps-vs-hammocks-vs-bivy sacks. 

    The biggest challenge is getting the young guys to take enough water.

  5. 23 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    So far I have had to make minimal changes.  One is to modify gender language on the fly.  So in some cases an adventure would have me read something about “boys” and I would insert “girls” or “scouts”.  The other is to be prepared with more adventure content.  That could be due to the smaller den size or that the girls are a bit more focused at this age.  

    The other area I have watched for is interactions between boys and girls.  That will be a new dynamic but again shouldn’t require a change to the program.

    For the life of me I have no idea what else would have to change.  I would be interested in specifics on what modification would be sought for girls.

    I meant that local units try all sorts of crazy things and by the law of averages there will be a misguided few that may try to soften the path for girls, we see it often by well meaning parents for boys. But no means necessary or inevitable (I think).

  6. 21 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

    I have been told repeatedly by scouters in favor of this new change, both online and in person, that boys and girls are the same and the program doesn't need to change to meet the needs of girls or boys, because those needs are the same. 

    I think any pressure to change the program for girls, how ill advised, may come from local units. The only question will be if the District-Council-National structure will reinforce the stated rules or cave to pressure. Too early to worry about that for me.

  7. 17 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:


    I don’t see the BSA ever negatively commenting directly about any other program.  In fact, I’ve seen them in interviews stating positive things about 4H, GSUSA, etc.  I agree they are adding girls to deal with declining membership but I don’t see them attacking other programs (at least publicly).  

    I’m not arguing against your other points, and there are definite concerns that membership will still decline.  

    I think this is a wise policy to act confident and magnanimous towards other youth scouting programs. Getting nasty will only hurt the BSA brand name.

    • Upvote 1
  8. 18 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

    All organizations have a choice in how they respond to competitive threats.  If you are confident in your program and see yourself as a market leader you rarely have to try and trash the competition and can simply emphasize your own brand.  GSUSA is clearly not confident in their brand/product and must resort to attacking the BSA program.  I certainly hope they are planning on focusing inward to see how they can retain and attract more girls to their program vs attempting to scare them away from the BSA.  

    I’m not stating BSA is without flaws and I wish the organizations could work together but this continued line of attack from GSUSA won’t play well as soon as you see more and more girls in BSA.  I think BSA should stay consistent... we have a great program that works for all youth.  There is no need to modify the program for girls.  

    In my small sample size, 7 girls joined my Pack who are also members of GSUSA and 5 are planning on dropping their GSUSA membership.  So far my daughter is one of about 2 who plan to return to GSUSA and that is not firm. The Pack/Den model is really tough to compete with.... too much is put on the shoulders of each GSUSA Troop Leader.


    Quite a few of the GSUSA leaders I know (and most of them say 'leave our girls alone') admit that the GSUSA National PR push against BS4G makes them uncomfortable and looks bad. 

    • Upvote 1
  9. 16 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    Considering I know who wrote that comment on the blog and heard him talk about it, I can tell you it was made to show how BSA policies and literature is constantly changing,  contradictory and confusing. One BSA official document, Bryan's Blog, is NOT stating that  the practice of cutting corners of TOTIN" CHIP ( emphasis) is being denied.  And many Packs use those policies in absence of specific Cub Scout ones, or to help Webelos transition to Boy Scouts. But then a change is made in another BSA document, 2017 BALOO Syllabus, stating that you cannot cut corners on Whittling Chip. 

    As a former trainer, I can see where all these constant changes can cause confusion, especially for former Cub Scout leaders who are now Boy Scouters and are still following Cub Scout policies and not Boy Scout policies. I just checked out the current ITOLS syllabus, and no prohibition on cutting corners is in there.

    Regarding cutting corners as a form of hazing, please explain to me how talking to a Scout about a minor infraction and cutting a corner to serve as a reminder to do better is hazing? I admit singing for lost items is pushing it IMHO, but anyone who has been a pledge for a fraternity/sorority knows what hazing truly is. Anyone who has been to a service academy, or been through boot camp knows what hazing truly is. 

    Cutting corners is not hazing.

    Better a cut corner than a knife wound. Better a hurt feeling than a hurt hand. Not saying there may be better things to use in your correctional bag of tricks but there are times you need to make an impression. Knives and fires are not toys and there are real physical consequences to their misuse.

    • Upvote 1
  10. The boys asked me recently to perform the little teapot song for old times sake. Bullies.

    My son had a corner clip to his Fireman's Chit, was very effective. The story of that incident has grown in the troop lore. I am not so upset about the "damage to a scouts property" argument because a lot of boys had 2 or 3 cards because they kept losing them (and we made them re-do the whole training--my bad)

    2 hours ago, Thunderbird said:

    I recently did the new YPT training (online).  I don't recall it mentioning the Totin' Chip or ripping corners.

    It is NOT a hazing thing it is a SAFETY thing...papercuts.

    • Haha 1
  11. 12 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    My biggest concerns are the following:

    1) What happens when "linked troops" are having a "joint" meeting, but there is no female Scouter present for the meeting?

    2) What happens when "linked troops" are suppose to have a "joint" camp out, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

    3) What happen when "linked troops" are suppose to do a week long activity, but no female Scouter is able to attend?

    Let's be honest. That is all CYA for National. There will be some tut tutting from Council and District folks and some "did you know" at training sessions but for those Troops that want a de facto co-ed Troop their will be little blow back or correction until AFTER something bad happens. The rules make a pretty good buffer for National if local units ignore the rules and something bad happens. Then we ALL will get some required additional training. I suspect many units will just make a "mom has to come along on campouts" rule.

    I think the only problem will be when there really is not any "linked" troop, even a sham, and it affects some young lass going for advancement--particularly Eagle. If some stops her advancement they will appeal it and since we do not punish the Scout of the sins of the adults they will find a way to make it happen. So for those girls who cannot find the minimum number of 4 for a Linked Troop but can find one who will let them join anyway.

    Seems like a low level risk for the Scout advancement wise, a mid level risk for the Scout safety wise, and a high level risk for the unit Liability wise.

    • Upvote 1
  12. 10 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

    Well to be fair, the challenge for all adult leaders is learning to resist pushing the program the way they think it should run. The adults goals are Character development, Citizenship participation, and fitness. The scouts reach those goals through the actions of the eight methods. That sounds easy, but most adults need experience to figure out how scouting activities work toward those goals. So, instead of focusing on goals we don't understand, we get more involved on the eight methods. And it is a show stopper because the reality is adults ideas are limitations to scouts decisions. I was one of the worst.

    That is why I taught new adults of new troops to give the scouts the SPL and PL handbooks and let them go. That forces the adults to step back and watch how they scouts decisions effect reaching the adult goals of Character, Citizenship and Fitness. It's now quick, but it helps both the scouts and adults start in the right direction.


    It is hard to do in practice...I talk a good game but mettled and screwed things up in my time.

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