T2Eagle

 

My advice,

1. Do not store firearms at an unattended, remote site. Pry bars, chain saws, winch on an ATV all make break-in easy.

2. Store in a real gun safe, bolted to concrete floor, with dehumidifier. A good one (e.g. Fort Knox) will cost about twice the cost of those rifles stolen, that sheet metal Sentry safe used probably cost 1/10.

3. Alarm system with battery backup and cameras.

4. Store ammunition separate from firearms.

5. Off-season store securely off-site - local gun shop, police department.

 

What are the requirements for firearm storage at summer camps?

 

My $0.02

Your second point pretty much negates all the others (except #4).  The cost of security shouldn't come anywhere near the cost of replacing the object you're trying to protect.  What they had here was probably appropriate to the circumstances.  You want to make it difficult for an impulsive act of vandalism or theft, but the cost of securing against determined thieves especially given the probability of having determined thieves target a remote location like a scout camp, really wouldn't be a Thrifty use of resources.  

Your second point pretty much negates all the others (except #4).  The cost of security shouldn't come anywhere near the cost of replacing the object you're trying to protect.  What they had here was probably appropriate to the circumstances.  You want to make it difficult for an impulsive act of vandalism or theft, but the cost of securing against determined thieves especially given the probability of having determined thieves target a remote location like a scout camp, really wouldn't be a Thrifty use of resources.

 

Along those lines, I think this situation illustrates the folly in trying to treat the COs as the "customer," rather than treating the membership base as the "customer."  Just based on reading this forum - the vast majority of the time, we hear that the CO is "uninvolved," "doesn't care," "we don't even know who they are."  Its hard to argue that the COs are, or even should be, considered the "key members" or "customers" of the BSA, when this is the practical situation for the majority of our units.

I think this is a pretty big point.  Most of the discussion here relies on the idea that the LDS Church is being dishonest in the reasons they're giving for ending their involvement in this part of the program.  If we take them at their word the changes they're making are not related to the recent membership standards changes, and frankly that makes a lot of sense --- a Church outsourcing their youth program for half the members to an outside source might have made sense when LDS was a new, American only, fairly fringe and out of the mainstream new religion 100 years ago.  But today it is the opposite of all those things; taking direct control of their program and tailoring it to their church's needs makes a lot of sense.

The BSA model has relied on several major religions as COs to drive their membership and provide vital support.  This is a model that works great right up until it doesn't.  Again, believing the LDS to be truthful in their statements, this decision could easily have occurred absent any membership change --- what then?

Relying on a few very hierarchical organizations leaves us vulnerable to the decision of a very few people, some of whom may not even be very invested in the program to begin with.  The number of civic organizations other than churches that are available to charter units has been decreasing rapidly and steadily for a few decades (see the movie/book "Bowling Alone') so I'm not sure what model other than the current one can be found, but somebody should be thinking hard about this.  I'm chartered by a Catholic parish; the overwhelming number of our parents aren't concerned one way or the other about membership changes, and frankly probably aren't that concerned about the Church's position on them so long as it doesn't affect our unit, but if the church orders the unit closed it's closed, irrespective of the parents' views.  But if we were chartered either directly or by a nonsectarian CO then the church's position would probably have virtually no effect on membership.

Ponder what would happen if the Catholic church came out tomorrow against youth soccer programs, I doubt youth soccer would see more than a single digit decrease in membership.

There are some topics that should work well with internet based learning.  Certainly Troop Committee Challenge is straight forward enough to be covered that way.  I am skeptical that SM specific training can be done suffciently well as a passive lecture format.  On the other hand, at least that avoids the passing on of the many scouting urban legends.  Two of my ASMs came back from their training complete with the "You have to be in uniform to be covered by insurance" nonsense

We've had a physician associated with the troop, a pulmonologist, help with physicals with the boys for years, he also does not check the genitalia.  No one at summer camp check-in has ever questioned this.  My own experience with my sons is that a really thorough physical exam by their pediatrician does involve a physical check of the genitalia but not every time.  There's some medical value to it, but it doesn't seem critical to summer camp

I was looking at the my.scouting.org Training Manager, and it is telling me that several of my committee members are untrained.  When I looked to see what training was missing I got this long list:

SCO_400 Scouting Organization for Boy Scouting SCO_401 Role of the Unit Key 3 for Boy Scouting SCO_402 Aims and Methods of Boy Scouting SCO_403 Ideals and Beliefs of Boy Scouting SCO_404 Scoutmaster and Patrol Leaders for Boy Scouting SCO_405 Patrol Method for Boy Scouting SCO_406 Outdoor Programs for Boy Scouting SCO_407 Advancement for Boy Scouting SCO_408 Uniforms for Boy Scouting SCO_409 Leader Uniforms for Boy Scouting SCO_410 Patrol Leaders Council Meeting for Boy Scouting SCO_411 Troop Meeting for Boy Scouting SCO_412 Troop Committee for Boy Scouting SCO_413 Troop Committee Meetings for Boy Scouting SCO_414 Annual Planning for Boy Scouting SCO_415 Intro to Merit Badges for Boy Scouting SCO_530 Journey to Excellence.

I've never even heard of most of these, has anyone else seen anything like this?

I try hard to keep up with the resources available, but I have never seen or heard of this site, http://troopleader.org/, that the good Colonel links to here.  Who's responsibility do you think it is to get this into the hands of leaders like me?

If program planning resources is what you are looking for then try this site. BSA just pulled together several of their resources that were spread across their website in to one location. The Program Resources help with the actual detail of meetings or events. Program Planning help with the higher level, theme-like areas.

 

 

We have used scoutmaster for well over a decade.  When BSA bought Scoutbook I took a hard look at it but it didn't seem to rise to TM's then offering.  

We're currently on a 30 day trial of TM Web, looking at Scoutbook again also, but TM seems to still offer more.  For instance, TM comes with a turnkey web page offering similar to SOAR, Scoubook doesn't offer anything like that, and TM allows more customization, as an example you can customize your permission slip with TM, Scoutbook only provides the BSA default.

So what if there were requirement(s) for a scout or unit to camp/hike from Sept to May at a Council camp and force Council to use those fees to maintain the camp within a facilities plan. The facilities plan would state whether the camp is rustic or resort, timber harvest limits, solar arrays, multi-use, sale of  lots.

 

My $0.02

In answer to your question, I don't think requiring something like that would make much difference.  The biggest challenges facing council camps is declining membership combined with the increasing cost of maintaining a camp, especially maintaining it to 21st century building and land use specs --- and 21st century user expectations.

There are two defining issues that cannot be avoided when thinking about camp finances: 1) Membership is the biggest issue, and whatever else may be true we know those numbers are not what they were, and there's no expectation that they will rise precipitously anytime soon. 2)Camps are like any other seasonal business, the vast majority of their revenue is going to come in the summer, no matter what the rate of usage the rest of the year, it's bring in the money during the summer or not at all.

So once you know what numbers you have to work with you have to figure out what is possible given those numbers.  I would guess that most scouts still attend a week of summer camp at a council owned property, whether it's their own council or another.   And there is no way to avoid the fact of economies of scale when you're running a camp.  Our council camp runs for seven weeks, and over the past several years we've had anywhere from 400 to 700 scouts in any given week.  The fact is it costs the same to operate over the summer, and maintain the camp through the winter, no matter what that weekly attendance is. So if we were trying to maintain two camps with 200 to 350 campers it would cost substantially more than one camp with the numbers we have.  Therefore one camp is the only answer that is financially viable.

Demographic shifts also seem to be playing a part in the closing of many of these older camps.  There are many fewer people living in upstate NY and many many more people living in say NC or TX today, there's no way our organization is going to not be affected by that as well.

We have a zero tolerance policy.  We would kick him out.

I'm curious, do you think you catch every scout who's guilty, or is getting caught the real transgression?

Welcome to the forum.

First of all, the best figures I can find are that roughly 25% of 10th graders and 35% of 12th graders reported using Marijuana in 2016;  38% of 10th graders and 56% of 12th graders used alcohol, so probably every scouter on this forum with a significant number of high schoolers in their unit has a scout that has or does smoke pot --- you just have one that got caught.  

I agree with everyone that says focus on what is good for this scout and your other scouts.  The one thing you want to be sure of is that his poor behavioral choice does not happen during scout functions.  I'm not a big fan of searches, but I think it's woryh having the parents assure you that they'll examine his gear before any outing to ensure that nothing is coming to scouts with him.  i would leave punishment to  the civil authorities and work with him in scouts to make sure his transgression was an anomaly that he can demonstrate that, although like all of us he is capable of bad decisions, can he show that he is also capable of making good decisions.

That's silly.  I guess it's Hypothetically possible that you could run afoul of copyright or trademark rules if you use those owned by BSA, but a) it's unlikely, and b) BSA would have to see your material, run it by their lawyers, and then notify you that they believe you're in violation.  This would take you way past recruitment.

Outside of trademark/copyright no rules exist that would keep you from making your own flyers.  I've done it, and continue to do it, because I can use pictures, images, and messages specific to my units and my CO.

When someone tells you something like this the best thing to do is smile, thank them for their help, take whatever materials they want to give you, and then go do what you intended to do anyway.  What are they going to do, turn down your kids' applications because they were recruited using non official flyers?

I'm with those who say look forward not backward.  There is nothing here that you or anyone else can "fix".  Money was spent on a scouting activity by someone who apparently had the authority to spend it.  Maybe they shouldn't have spent it that way, maybe the authority wasn't so much authority as lack of any oversight that would have curtailed that authority.  Whatever the case, the pack is not going to get that money back.  No one is going to be able to rewrite what happened.  Your Pack has the money it has in the account today.  Set up a good structure for both accountability and transparency going forward.  

Every bit of energy you spend on what happened is going to be energy you cannot spend on the boys.  You might be able to show to someone that your view of what happened --- that there was some sort of either mal- or mis- feasance --- is what happened, but that will not change a bloody thing, and at the end of the process you won't feel any better about it than you do now.

Council cannot and will not get involved in this; likely your COR will not want to expend any energy on this.  Most COR s want first and foremost for their units to not cause them problems, make too big a fuss and they might drop the unit as being too much trouble.  If you can't let this go turn it over to someone who can, no good will come of your worrying it.

Like almost anything else, blanket rules probably aren't the smart way to go.  If kids are using them as just another toy to play with ask them to put them away.  For kids (and some adults) with ADHD or anxiety, they're going to be unconsciously doing something with their hands, whether it's tapping, or biting their nails, or running outside for a smoke anyway.  For them it's not going to be a toy or something they're using to interract with other folks, it's going to be all inwardly focused.   You can ask them to put them away at critical times, like when saying the Pledge, Oath, or Law, and at other times it shouldn't significantly affect them or those around them.

Our policy mirrors Richard B's.  Cell phones are a tool, you can use it properly or improperly, and like Richard said we try to model good cell phone behavior.

I have not seen any more misuse of cell phones than I have of any other object.  The scouts police themselves in terms of not sitting around playing games or otherwise using them when they probably shouldn't be.

The summer before last my troop sent a crew to Philmont.  They had initially been training with and were going to go with a gentleman who is one of the council old salts who essentially goes to Philmont every year.  He had told our scouts absolutely no phones on the trek for any reason.  When asked why he said that's just not the right way to do Philmont; I know him well, he's a great guy, but that's pretty much his view --- there is only one right way to do scouting, all other ways are wrong.  As it turned out our scouts ended up filling their own crew and so were freed from that univision.  The day they climbed baldy they took a picture of themselves at the summit holding a sign thanking me for helping them get there; they somehow found enough coverage sometime later that day to text that photo to me.  Whenever I hear someone say scouts shouldn't have cell phones I pull out that picture and ask them to describe to me what exactly they can describe as wrong.

I am genuinely curioous for those who ban cell phones, what do you think scouts would be doing with them that you would find so objectionable.

I can't think of ANYTHING that requires a hash tag.

I disagree, when confronted with a variety of hashes I like to have tags so I know whether I am choosing the corned beef, ham, or vegetarian.  This is especially important if I am going for seconds and want to narrow my selections. 

Our district does it like Cherokee's with the exception that the reference forms are snail mailed to the District Eagle person.

No, a Scout is not patient, a Scoutmaster is. 

 

However, when we are only on page two and folks are answering a question for the tenth time that was aptly answered withing the first few posts; then to carry the analogy further, the horse was still born with a line of people lined up to beat the snot out of it.

Just because beating dead horses isn't of interest to you doesn't mean the rest of us don't find some pleasure or at least relief in it.

As I tell my wife after having given the same set of instructions/guidance/advice to my teen age son for the umpteenth time, "well, at least I feel better because I said it."

Chisos is correct; there are two clauses, not three.  The minimum age is 10, and then in addition the boy must have completed fifth grade or earned AOL.

Commas, or the lack thereof, matter.  

Keep in mind the badge has to be earned before he turns 18, when it is recorded is (mostly) irrelevant to his receiving Eagle.

Emphasize good rain coats and good foot gear.  Bring extra of both.  Dress warmer than usual, extra layers, heavier jackets --- most people do not realize what it means to be outside for an extended period without the ability to go somewhere warm.

I'm a little concerned by what you mean when you "stay away air mats," everybody MUST have a pad between the ground and their sleeping bag, air mattresses work fine for this, if you try to sleep directly on the ground you will be cold.

We've had at least one of these in our troop.  The planning, development, and leadership are about both the logistics of the event and the persuading of people to show up.  The scout obviously isn't going to be drawing blood, but that and the paperwork that goes with t are the only things he wouldn't be doing.

I suppose it depends on how turn key the operation is from the point of view of the red Cross.  I occasionally helped plan these for an employer, there was a fair amount of effort, planning, and leadership on our part before the red cross actually pulls up.

The code doesn't matter but the training does. They must be trained for their position.

 

I assume everyone knows this but thought it stood mentioning.

I'm not sure what you mean.  Every Scouter must be currently YPT trained.  I'm not sure what position specific training there is for College Reserve, I couldn't find any.  I think there is something available for MB counselors.  But there is no universal requirement for adults to receive training beyond YPT; there are, or at least were, some councils which had tried a pilot program where every scouter did have to be position trained.  I'm not sure if any councils are still doing that, but it is not universal.

Pay your bills, including property tax, without monthly reminders, do you?  

 

Renew your licenses without reminders?  

 

Operated on one notice of a future test or paper due with no reminders from anyone else?  Starting at 10.5 years old?  Admirable.

 

Kind

Helpful

Friendly

Coach

Mentor

 

Don't do something because you may be unfairly blamed for something if you do?

 

Brave

 

Model

 

 

Just asking.

Thanks TAHAWK, I give a similar answer to folks who gripe about and criticize scouts not getting the final requirements of Eagle done until near their 18th birthday:  If you file your taxes on April 15th is that late or is that getting them done on time?

College Scouter Reserve sounds like the most appropriate registration code for what you have in mind.  Just for clarification, 18 -- 20 year olds can also be ASMs if registered with a troop, and of course Venturers.

It doesn't really matter what the registration code is, it matters what you intend to have them do to help the program.  If I was trying this, one area I would consider that's a little outside the box would be as Instructors for youth leadership training programs, especially if that could get you some good training outside rather than in a classroom.  I would probably also try to have them staff district and council events like camporees, or have them act as adults for new or struggling troops.

Basically take advantage of their enthusiasm and their probable penchant for getting outdoors and getting a little dirty.  Most especially I would make this a co-ed outreach, look for former female camp staffers and Venturers to supplement the obvious Eagle Scout pool you'll probably start with.