slontwovvy

Sctmom,

I did what you asked and went on the ACLU homepage. This is what I found (things I most definitely "did not agree with"): "Federal Appeals Court Will Weigh Effort To Use Personal Religious Beliefs To Evade Gay Bias Laws," "Ruling 7-0, NY High Court Delivers Victory in First-Ever Challenge to College Housing for Married Couples," "In Setback for Religious Liberty, High Court Ruling Permits After-School Evangelism," all things I don't believe in. Spent over half an hour searching, couldn't find one thing I agreed to.

BB, of course words are subjective. It all depends on what your definition of "is" is.

First of all, sorry to ScouterPaul for my misquote. Didn't mean to be so stupid.

Still though, for NJCubScouter, you didn't read the reasoning for my assertion. I added a qualifier to my logic. If Merlyn is a typical ACLU member, I don't see how the BSA and the ACLU can have 95% in common. I haven't seen Merlyn agreeing with much of anything, nor do I see him following the Scout Oath and Law in many of its forms. (If a Scout is kind, he doesn't seem to appreciate OGE that much.) My point didn't come across the way it was meant to.

CubsRgr8, welcome to the fray.

Merlyn

First of all, your response to OGE was simply rude. Didnt help your cause either. If this callousness is one of the other things the ACLU is for, the world will be in a heap of trouble should ultra-liberalism ever triumph over what is right.

Secondly, I have heard of people who put the Magna Carta in their courthousesindeed, my own county courthouse has a framed replica on its walls. Yet there would be no problem if one did want to put the English Bill of Rights or the Magna Carta up. It doesnt make the news because the ACLU hasnt yet found a way to kick those documents out, hence they keep quiet (a rare but welcome occurrence) and the citizens dont hear about it when it happens.

Thirdly, its ludicrous to assume that US law came from only one source. It comes from a multitude of sources put together. One of them is, like it or not, the Ten Commandments. However, we did not adopt all of the ten into our system, much like we did not do to the Code of Hammurabi. (Somehow, an eye for an eye, killing builders who make faulty homes, and cutting off the hands those who steal havent stayed unto modern times, except maybe in Afghanistan.) You claim that the commandments barring lying, stealing, and murder were not new. This may be true, but the Ten Commandments brought them to the forefront of the debate; Im sure Hammurabi didnt come up with them either. However, they are best known from the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments revolutionized morality, and our laws, again, like it or not, are partially based upon them.

Next, we have the issue of the monument itself. Its privately funded, from my understanding. Secondly, it has been there for a whileit could go the way of In God We Trust or With God all Things are Possible, being declared traditional. (It must gall you that you cant completely obliterate all mention of the word and reality of God.) There really are no reasons why the monument cannot be there in the first place. You seem to think that freedom of religion is freedom from religion. If its public property, you cannot stop private citizens from expressing their religion on public grounds if the proper decorum, ambiance, and approval are maintained and obtained. Im sure if you and all your little friends want to petition to get a sign that says gods are myths on the Capitol wall you can do that if you have the necessary support and the sign doesnt conflict with the atmosphere of the place. Yet somehow I doubt youll get it. Why? Because the silent majority is with us! Merlynit may come as a shock to realize that most (of at least those that I know) do not support you. You just want it that way so you and your ACLU friends can destroy everything that America stands for.

Ill take a page from cjmiams book and askif you are so upset with the Boy Scouts and the United States, why dont you (a) form your own youth organization, (b) renounce your US citizenship (presuming you have it) and go to a country that better represents your beliefs, such as the Netherlands or Denmark, © both (a) and (b), or (d) realize that you might not be right and be quiet?

ScouterPaul, I hate to say it, but if you dont like what the BSA stands for, why are you in it? Somehow it doesnt seem to me, if Merlyn is a typical ACLU member, that there is 95% in common between the two organizations.

Merlyn et al, you liberals are trying to rewrite history. Now, in some states, the Revolutionary War is the Revolutionary Conflict, because conflict involved less strong emotion. Ill pause here to let George Washington and others roll over in their graves. Additionally, in the new statue honoring those firefighters and policemen who gave their lives in the WTC attacks (the subject is the now famous photo of the firefighters raising the flag), there is talk that the people portrayed not as all whites (which, by coincidence, they happened to be), but a Latino, a black, and (I believe) a woman. Somehow this doesnt seem like a good memory of the recent past.

I encourage everyone out there to speak out against Merlyn and his followers. As Orwell pointed out in 1984 (Im paraphrasing) Those who control the present control the past. Lets hope that the ACLU never gets any more control over the present.

Whoa, that turned out to be a lot more than two cents.

SlontWovvy

R7,

I'd like to thank you for all of the insight you have provided in this forum. You'll be missed by those "keeping up the good fight."

I agree with your statement that this is the most important forum on the site. We are dissecting the fundamentals of Scouting: indeed, a little self-discovery never hurt anyone.

Though I doubt it'll ever happen, maybe we'll get a couple people to change their minds yet, or at least give them a run for their money.

YIS,

SlontWovvy

R7 and others,

Check out the book of Philemon...at least I'm pretty sure that's the right one...

NJCubScouter, the day that the supposed "gay discrimination" (IMHO just a group of people who want to be able to do whatever they please) is completely destroyed will be a sad day for our nation and our world.

Our troop has policies on the following--Scout Spirit, Service, Leadership, and one or two more. Anything else is done on an as-needed basis. The policies we do have, however, prove useful come BOR time.

Big Bump to R7 and DD on this one.

Thou shalt not kill.....seem to remember a law on the books concerning murder.

Thou shalt not steal....seem to remember codes on robbery and theft.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor....yep, those laws about perjury are still around too, as our past President can point out.

If we're required to be friends to all, I pity society. We couldn't make basic decisions for fear that it might offend someone.

A business owner couldn't choose between an engineer that finished at the top of his class and an engineer that barely scraped by for fear of not being entirely friendly. Speak of "intolerance" when your house collapses on you for lack of support, or a bridge falls and kills dozens. It's the same thing.

We should respect all, however, that does not imply that we have to agree with all that they do. I said it before, I'll say it again: it's sad that people misconstrue tolerance as letting people do whatever they want. If this idea should ever come to pass, it will be an even sadder day for mankind.

Intolerance?

You're lambasting us for being intolerant....hmm... None of us have said anything truly intolerant. We have not said that we'd do any harm to gays if we met them. We're not saying that we would treat them subhumanly if we met one (indeed, I have a few gay friends as well). However, what we are arguing is that we disapprove of their decision, which is immoral. Intolerance merely means lack of respect for people. We are showing the respect, however, we disagree with what they stand for.

Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here....

I concur. Give him some time to enjoy what Scouting is all about. Work on the First class requirements. Too fast of a start is very likely to "burn them out" on Scouts, which is something I think we'll all agree is a bad thing.

TJ says that he does not claim that gays are moral. He also says that he disagrees with the statement that they are immoral.

What does that leave us if they are not moral or immoral? It leaves amoral, the absence of morality. Still something I don't think the BSA wants to promote in its leaders.

Several ex-troop dads and former Scouts who still live in the area serve as merit badge counselors for our Scouts, as well as some local social studies teachers for the citizenship series.

In Wisconsin, Brad is correct. Our teacher's union has sucked away funds supposed to be spent on salary increases, then complained to the state and the cities that teachers are not being paid enough. Recently, some teachers in a nearby town went on half-strike--in order to get more pay, they refused to run extracurriculars, and will not right letters of recommendation for college, basically screwing their students over. Is this just?

Amazing, freedom of association, which is just as much a constitutional right as our own beloved freedom of speech, seems to be counting less and less. The BSA has the right to exclude whomever they want, whenever they want, and for whatever reason they want. Checkmate. Enough said.

Just my two cents--the 60 Minutes was pretty slanted away from the BSA too.

None-our area's quite conservative.

For Readyman, get the Red Cross or the local Boy Scout troop to come in and put on the course.

For Citizen, it is always neat to go to the county courthouse or the 911 response center.

I forget which pin it was for, but a trip to the waste water treatment plant was the highlight of Webelos for my den.

I also have heard lasertag is "illegal," but do not have any policies to point to either. In the past, however, our troop has met as a "group of friends" to do these activities.

Sometimes our troop holds a giant capture the flag night, for two or three hours. No Scout skills, but a lot of fun and food. A good start for new Scouts.

This should go unsaid, but who knows? No relatives. We've had two cases where a grandfather and an uncle wanted to sit in. This is a big no-no.

"I believe there is no difference between a normal, healthy and moral gay person and a normal, healthy and moral straight person."

Except for the fact that one likes the same sex cannot procreate, and is not allowed in the BSA, while the other can procreate, likes the other sex, and is approved by multiple religious books. Hmm...those sound like differences to me....and that's just the start....

I wonder, does he know Randy Korb...the reptile/amphibian thing sounds a lot like him.

Don't forget to change your clothes before you go to sleep. Sweat in the clothes you wore the previous day will make you colder. Always keep a separate pair of clothes for night, including a warm hat.

We Wisconsinites know what we speak of.

Again, everyone, stand up and applaud DD.

The BSA does not attempt to discover the sexual orientation of its leaders. It is only if they are trying to spread their propaganda that they are denied membership. I think that we agree that Scouts should not learn in-depth details about their leaders' sex lives. Where, then, is your case?

It takes a village to raise a child, not just a school system or just a parent. That's been said since long before any of us were born. Still, it rings true. You need a network of people for education to work.

I am in agreement with Brad that public schools often have an agenda, however, often liberal. In Wisconsin, our teacher's union especially has gotten their hand caught in the proverbial cookie jar...just a little exposure of what they do.