shortridge

For what it's worth, a "nondenominational" service only really covers the different Christian denominations, so that term leaves out Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, etc., by its very use. The preferred term these days is "interfaith worship service." The term "Scouts' Own" is apparently not in vogue anymore, for some reason, according to the training syllabus (below is a link to a cached copy at Scouting.org). The syllabus outlines the pros and cons and pitfalls. http://bit.ly/aCcoSK

That seems pretty insulting to Seton...

That seems pretty insulting to Seton...

Just as one example, many Jewish congregations do not pass a collection plate during services. Even among more liberal sects, it has its roots in the Orthodox practice of not handling money on the Sabbath. So as John says, the function is common to many faiths. It's the form that may be utterly unfamiliar, bewildering and even intimidating. FWIW, I've never attended a summer camp or district or council camporee that took a collection at an interfaith service.

A very off-topic clarification. Deep Throat, aka Mark Felt, *was* known to the reporters and editors involved, and it was because of his position and knowledge that he was trusted. He wasn't just some random guy spouting off in a parking garage who happened to have some supporting paperwork in his hand. Now back to your regularly scheduled law enforcement summit ...

Engineer61, Absolutely nothing "happens." Interfaith or faith-specific worship services, at camp or otherwise, are not compulsory. No one, whether a youth or adult leader, can force a Scout to attend.

A few observations & questions ... - As a general rule, the cost that boys pay for Scout camp doesn't even begin to cover the whole cost of the program and facilities. Council revenues and donations underwrite a large portion of that cost behind the scenes. - Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with that type of a fundraising appeal, but then I don't come from a faith tradition that "passes the basket." I have attended Protestant services where that's done, and always seem to sit next to the fellow who puts in a $20 and then feel bad when I just add my 50 cents. - I've never heard of or seen "prayer cards" at summer camp. Are they handed out to every camper, or just "available" at select places around camp? Are these a longstanding camp tradition? Is the prayer one that's been passed down through years of Scouts and Scouters here? In other words, does the camp get a good bang for its buck? Or is it something new or trendy that an ambitious chaplain decided to launch on his own this year? - The math doesn't quite seem to add up, frankly. If you had 200 people in the audience, and everyone put in just 50 cents, that's $100. Multiply that by five weeks or so of camp, and you've got $500 at minimum - maybe more like $1,000, given your description. That's a LOT of prayer cards, even if they're laminated (which does jack up the price). - If I were in your shoes, I would write a letter, politely suggesting that another cause be chosen - camperships, a needy family, disaster recovery efforts in Haiti or the Gulf or locally. There are lots of very worthy causes that don't come across as quite so egocentric. I would also suggest that donations simply be accepted at the main camp office, or in a basket placed to the side of the trail on the way out, so that Scouts are not compelled by peer or adult pressure to give. You could note also that not every faith tradition does that type of offering, and Scouts may not be used to it.

Beavah, Alas, no, no concrete or written examples. From my time on camp staff, I do recall a few troops that set aside part of the day - usually the afternoons - as patrol time or free time, and purposely made their boys not go gung-ho after as many merit badges as they could carry home. Speaking from my own experience, I was rather disappointed with the small numbers of troops that availed themselves of the outpost camping and trail hiking programs we offered. I could count on one hand over five years the number of troops or patrols that did an overnight on the undeveloped part of our reservation. I would hope that most camp staffs would welcome the opportunity to support a troop or patrol's program instead of just pushing the merit badge pathway.

Have you considered a hybrid option? That is, going to your council camp for the low cost, facilities and support ... but running your own program while there. Patrol hikes and outpost camping instead of merit badge classes. Campsite cooking instead of the dining hall. Able to go to open swim, open boating, open shooting, open handicrafts, etc., if desired. Able to participate in the campwide activities and competitions. Able to draw on the expertise of the staff if you need a LNT Trainer or first-aid expert, for example.

Boomerscout, I'm not saying that the staples will last forever. You certainly want to rotate your shelf-stable items. But they'll definitely last for the several months between campouts. Twocubdad, The "sound menu planning" you describe is part of the learning process, to be sure. And especially starting out, you're going to have waste and picky eaters and cooks who don't know what they're doing. (I vividly remember my patrol on my first campout all huddled around a stove on a chilly day, waiting for the hot dogs to cook ... one at a time.) The point I'm trying to make is that there are plenty of cost-cutting options out there for a patrol that plans ahead and monitors its staples carefully. That's precisely the job of the quartermaster or grubmaster. The role of the adults would simply be to keep an eye open for items on the patrol's wish list and snag them below a certain price point. There are a ton of thinking-outside-the-box options when it comes to food in the outdoors. I've found that getting away from the car-camping mindset makes things a lot cheaper. There's no easy way to pack hamburgers, buns and potato chips on your back, for example, so you move toward one-pot meals and cut out the expensive convenience foods. Condiments? No need for waste. Just have everyone pick up a couple extra individual-serving packets of ketchup, mayo and mustard when they hit the local fast-food joint. Problem solved (and it's free). Do I sound like one of those cheapskates? Yep, but it works. Grocery shopping for bargains and finding ways to stretch a menu dollar is a necessary - even vital - skill for adulthood.

Hooboy, my head hurts now.

Basementdweller - Keep in mind these are ballpark, rounded figures for food costs. Your mileage may vary based on local conditions. Just one example of many. Friday night: Eat dinner at home before departing, or bring-your-own sandwiches. Saturday breakfast: Eggs and bacon. $4 for two 12-ct eggs (for this meal & lunch); $5 for slab of bacon. Fresh fruit ($10 total for whole weekend - bananas, apples, oranges, etc., which can all be good trail foods or healthy in-between snacks). Water. Lunch: Trail-style meal - bagels (12-pack for $2.50), peanut butter (small container for $3), hard salami ($3), hard-boiled eggs. Trail mix ($8 total for all ingredients for entire patrol - store-brand granola or cereal, raisins, peanuts). Fresh fruit. Water. Dinner: Pasta & tuna casserole ($2 for pasta, $4 for two packs of tuna in foil); side of corn, green beans, carrots, peas, etc. ($4 for two cans); Baco-Taters (instant mashed potatoes $2 pouch, .50 cents for rationed baggie of Bacon Bits); pudding for dessert ($3 for two boxes instant mix). Water. Breakfast: Oatmeal ($4 for good, healthier non-instant kind; $3 for honey to drizzle in for flavor), fresh fruit; finishing up leftover eggs & bacon, if any. Water. Rounding up, thats about $60 for a weekend per patrol, or $7.50 per Scout, or $22.50 for that three-member family. By stocking up with on-sale shelf-stable foods (Boomerscout: note shelf-stable, meaning foods that wont generally spoil or attract bugs) such as the pasta, tuna, canned veggies, instant potatoes, instant pudding, oatmeal), you can bring the cost down even more. The trick is for your patrol quartermasters or grubmasters to fashion the menu around items you already have. In my home, I wouldn't be able to last the week without leftovers of some sort. Use the same principles with your patrols. You can also trim the budget further by ditching items such as bacon in favor of pancakes ($2-3 per box, and unless the patrol is ravenous, you still have at least half a box left for next time - properly packaged and stored, it won't go bad). To vary up lunches and replace the potato chips, which really don't add any nutritional value and can be expensive and difficult to store and transport, consider string cheese, dried fruits, store-brand "Fig Newtons," summer sausage, etc. Make inexpensive additions to any meal with biscuits (Jiffy mix, $1 a box); rice ($1 a box); pasta sides ($1 a pouch); etc. ... all relatively inexpensive options.

Gary, I had the exact same experience as your son. After just three years of "regular" Boy Scouts, I joined camp staff and sealed my membership in the Order, and didn't look back. I wanted bigger challenges than my troop was able to give me. This brings me to a bigger question that goes back to the actual reason for the start of this thread. In the corporate world, companies spend lots of money to find out information about their customers - even former customers. When someone leaves, they try to find out why. That information is crucial to focusing their product or service even more. Does National - or any local councils that anyone knows of - survey former Scouts about their reasons for dropping out? It seems to me that'd be crucial in figuring out whether we're seeing an exodus over the three G issues, or between Cubs and Boy Scouts, or at the older ages, and, most importantly, why. Without that information, we're just guessing and recounting anecdotal information.

Gary, I had the exact same experience as your son. After just three years of "regular" Boy Scouts, I joined camp staff and sealed my membership in the Order, and didn't look back. I wanted bigger challenges than my troop was able to give me. This brings me to a bigger question that goes back to the actual reason for the start of this thread. In the corporate world, companies spend lots of money to find out information about their customers - even former customers. When someone leaves, they try to find out why. That information is crucial to focusing their product or service even more. Does National - or any local councils that anyone knows of - survey former Scouts about their reasons for dropping out? It seems to me that'd be crucial in figuring out whether we're seeing an exodus over the three G issues, or between Cubs and Boy Scouts, or at the older ages, and, most importantly, why. Without that information, we're just guessing and recounting anecdotal information.

In another thread, Basementdweller wrote: We have several multi scout families to 10 bucks for food for the camp out can become 30 real quick. That is simply going to the free campsites. We already hike and fish, Free museums around, state historical sites. on and on and on. Jamboree, Philmont, northern tier are unobtainable. The Fall camporee cost $15 to just get in the door, $10 for food that is a $25 weekend which is $75 for one family. Klondike derby is $35....just the entry....... Our fundraisers barely cover Recharter and Summer camp Troop Gear isn't a problem, We have patrol boxes and tents for 40 scouts. We have transportation. It is food and camp site costs. ... but lets look at the cost of the program Fall camporee $25 November Camp $15 December Party $10 Recharter $35 January Cabin $30 Feb Klondike $40 March Camp $25 April Camp $10 May outing $15 June Summercamp $180 July FishingCamp$15 $360 bucks and that isn't with a bunch of expensive outings. In our council that is like $1,000 worth of popcorn. With three that is more than a grand. Personally, I'd drop popcorn like a hot potato and switch to something that'll give your troop more bang for its buck. But that's another topic entirely. Anyone able to chip in with some ideas to help reduce those food and campsite costs? Off the top of my head: - Monitor your shelf-stable staple foods carefully, and stock up whenever they go on sale - not necessarily close to a campout. Tuna fish, Spam, pancake mix, instant mashed potatoes, pasta of any sort, beans, dry soup mixes, dry milk, etc. - they can last a good while, and be had for fairly cheap by a good bargain shopper. This may require some adult action, as adults go grocery shopping far more frequently than kids. - Same for non-food items. Things such as paper towels, dish soap and TP can add up quickly. But if bought at store-brand, deep-discount prices and stockpiled (not purchased just before each campout), you can save some money. - If you have some talented anglers and there aren't any fish consumption advisories in your area, fish for food! It's free! ... and it'll be some of the best eating they've ever had. - Cut out juices and drink mixes and substitute water (free!) instead. - In winter, purchase bulk hot chocolate mix and measure it into individual servings instead of buying those expensive individual packets (e.g., Swiss Miss). - If you're mainly doing car-style "plop" camping, ice for coolers can be a very large expense. Instead of buying expensive bagged ice, find a committee member or parent with some extra space in the freezer. Clean out some used plastic ice-cream or sherbet tubs, fill 'em with water and freeze 'em. When it's time for a campout, just drop the large iceblocks into the cooler. Free! - Do a pricecheck of fresh fruit and vegetables at local farmers' markets vs the grocery stores. They're often cheaper direct from the farmer. - It's a bit more ambitious and would take some trial and error, but you could try dehydrating foods as a patrol project instead of buying them. Campsite costs can be a more challenging issue. Basementdweller mentioned free campsites, so I assume you've hit all the public ones close by. Not knowing what's in your area, there might be some off-the-beaten-path private locations that would require developing relationships with landowners. I'm talking about farms, woodlots/tree farms, hunting preserves, etc. My first troop had a great relationship with a local landowner who had an "island" (albeit separated from the "mainland" by just a dribbly creek) that we went to frequently, free of charge. Also, $65 of your total goes to district events - camporee and the Klondike. If they're busting the budget, don't go! There's nothing that says you can't do something else those months.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

"Are Taoist boys allowed to join BSA?" Absolutely. "... will there be some time in the future when they feel 'BSA doesn't want us?' " Possibly, as there could be with a Scout of any faith or background. But generally, as long as a Scout can affirm that he "will do [his] best to do [his] duty to God," however he and his family define that term, he is welcome. And there is plenty of flexibility. Buddhists, for example, do not necessarily believe in "God" as the Judeo-Christian faiths do. But there are plenty of Buddhist Scouts and units chartered to Buddhist organizations. The biggest challenge to this family will likely be from adult leaders who mistakenly believe that one must subscribe to a Judeo-Christian belief system to be a Scout. There may be some sticky moments, particularly at camp, on the Scout Sabbath, etc. But it's nothing that can't be dealt with with some preemptive education and the careful selection of a good local unit. Your description of the Taoist church reminds me a lot of Scouting. Some selective editing, and you can see the parallels: "In order to provide a place for many types of Scouts to come together they avoid mentioning matters of theism (which tend to divide Scouts) and instead focus on the principals and beliefs (philosophy) their entire community shares." Encourage them to explore Scouting as an option for their son, reviewing the Oath and Law and having some frank discussions. The Declaration of Religious Principle would also be worthwhie to review. To me, the last two sentences are the most pertinent. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law. The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

SSScout: Very eloquent. Thanks. BadenP, Can you help me understand something? First, you said: "If a troop goes to camp a CO has no authority to forbid the boys not to use the rifle range since this is a council program being held on property that does not belong to the CO." Now, you say: "John is correct if the CO/Church says no guns its no guns period." So which is it? Or is there a broader point you're trying to make?

One thing I've seen work with brainstorming has been to order a bunch of free tourism publications from all sorts of places around the country that might strike your Scouts' interest. Bring in a couple back issues of Backpacker magazine to toss around. Let them spark some imagination and creativity. Yeah, the troop probably can't make every trek a cross-country one. But selecting a big trek as the goal, and devising a plan to have the others build up to it ... that might work. Recommend that every Scout come to his Patrol's brainstorming meeting with at least five ideas written down. This'll help get you input from the folks who self-censor during group sessions, and are reluctant to toss out ideas in public. The patrols can then engage in whittling down the ideas or selecting their favorites, which the PL can then present to the PLC. Don't forget to look at your OA lodge's calendar and include that, too. It might be counterproductive to plan a trek when your SPL-chapter chief and two PL-ceremonialists have other obligations. The adults can help clear the way by combining their availability calendars beforehand, not during the process. It's disheartening to have a trip scheduled and preliminarily planned, and then find out that the SM and two ASMs can't go because of family or business obligations. Far better to have those dates starred or blocked out to begin with.

"If a troop goes to camp a CO has no authority to forbid the boys not to use the rifle range since this is a council program being held on property that does not belong to the CO." Following that line of reasoning, a CO's rules and restrictions only reply to unit programs held on property that belong to the CO. So a troop chartered to a church that restricts adult leadership to men only could allow women to register as leaders when it's at summer camp? Balderdash! (One of my favorite words, sorry. ) Saying "We don't want our Scouts shooting" is not a radical change to the program. It's on the same plane as saying "We don't want our Venturing crew to accept girls."

Double post, sorry.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

That's pretty incredible that the IH and his boss didn't realize that Boy Scouts shoot. Sounds like an education on more than just shooting sports is in order. Maybe invite them along on your next campout, or to visit summer camp? Or take the tour with you on check-in day? Practical demonstrations of exactly what the boys can do will accomplish a lot more than a presentation by someone in an office. If they can see Tenderfoot Johnny pass his swim test, or PL Andre lighting a campfire, or Range Master Stan very seriously discussing rifle safety, that should go a long way toward alleviating their concerns.

SctDad - Methinks you doth protest too much. Nowhere did I jump over anyone. My concern is not with the military connection - if i were anti-military, I'd be protesting the location at A.P. Hill. Give me a break! My questions deal with the general public understanding of how this system will work. Colored flags to govern activity levels are good, but I'm still failing to understand why the standard heat index isn't good enough. It's understandable by everyone and doesn't take two forum pages to explain. My worry is that someone's going to look at the WBGT readings, say "Oh, that's not as hot as it gets back home in _______," without understanding the methodology and differences, and proceed to ignore the warnings, with dangerous results. Yes, we have to use our resources. But that doesn't mean we have to completely convert to a system that only a small fraction of the population understands. Does the military not have "civilian" thermometers around? Does National not have standard thermometers in a supply crate somewhere? Can the military not convert its temperatures into the standard system? Either way, I'm not going to Jambo, so it's not really any of my business. I'm simply confused as to why National wouldn't use the standard U.S. temperature system.

A piece of advice I heard yesterday from two beach patrol captains was to start hydrating BEFORE you hit the heat. So make sure your Scouts are drinking even while traveling to Jambo in air-conditioned vans, buses, planes or trains. As a summer camp staffer at a mid-Atlantic camp (very hot and humid), we were instructed to make sure the Scouts in our programs drank at least one glass of water before starting. That gave them a baseline of at least seven cups a day (four program sessions + three meals). We all had coolers, cups (disposable waxed paper ones - can be dried and recycled for use in firestarters ) and a steady supply of water and ice. I assume the same mindset and access will apply at Jambo.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

IMHO, the SM should have separated the boys, sat down with them one at a time, found out what was going on, sat down with the father and then sat down with all three together. The "committee" shouldn't be deciding anyone's fate. The SM is the program officer of the troop, and it should be backing him up. Bylaws are utterly unecessary and ultimately counterproductive. Follow the Oath and Law, use some common sense, involve the parents, and that's all you need.

Twocubdad's questions prove my point. I understand that it's held on a military installation and that these devices are already there. But the majority of Scouts and Scouters will have never heard of it, and thus won't be able to explain why it's important.