SeattlePioneer

<<I actually got in trouble when I was a DE because I camped a lot. In addition to district and council camporees,  I did OA events and IOLS training, or whatever the outdoor portion was called at the time. But I was single at that point.  Like ProScouter06 above, once you start spending 12 to 16 hour days, longer if you are assigned summer camp duties, you need time to away from Scouting. Especially if you have family.>> 

Excellent idea!

New Webelos Den Leaders  often need support and encouragement to get started promptly with an outdoor program.

<<I actually got in trouble when I was a DE because I camped a lot. In addition to district and council camporees,  I did OA events and IOLS training, or whatever the outdoor portion was called at the time. But I was single at that point.  Like ProScouter06 above, once you start spending 12 to 16 hour days, longer if you are assigned summer camp duties, you need time to away from Scouting. Especially if you have family.>> 

My personal aim is for district volunteers to do all the things they can do,  so the DE only has to do the things only he can do.

My theory is that it's important for DEs to have free time to socialize so we can look forward to a new generation of Tigers in a few years.

Regrettably,  we are quite a long ways from achieving that aim....

<<I apologize if I came across as saying you were dishonest.  I don't know you and can't make that judgment.  I was reacting to what I sensed was an "I'll ignore the law if I don't agree with it" attitude.  I realize that you were ignoring my advice which you didn't think had much weight coming from an anonomous Hedgehog on the internet.  That's understandable.

>> 

One of the reasons for lengthy threads is that people may actually start understanding one another.  It's pretty common to wind up talking past one another repeatedly!

<<1.  All funds are in kept the unit's name.

2.  Funds can only be transferred between units within the same chartered organization

3.  Only a portion of the proceeds should be set aside for the scout engaging in the fundraising activity if the fundraisesr is for general purposes.  The rest should go to the unit (or if it is popcorn, a portion also goes to national/council)

4.  If the fundraiser is for a specific trip (Philmont) have the activity be something that everyone can (and is encouraged if not required to participate) in and apply the proceeds equally to reduce everone's cost.

5.  If a scout's family is financially challenged, it is ok to provide them with additional assistance

6.  Scout Accounts can't be used to for personal purchases such as backpacks or hiking boots or ever given to scouts when they leave.

7.  Scout Accounts can be used to fund Eagle projects

8.  Incentives are permissible as a cost of sales -- be them at the National, Council or unit level.  >> 

Interesting set of suggestions.

2)  When Cub Scouts graduate into Boy Scouts,  I will pay out money from accumulated ISA for  troop membership,  activities, outings, camp and such.   The family just needs to provide me with receipts for their payment,  or something like a bill from the Scout Troop if we're going to pay for summer camp or whatever.

Does that sound like a reasonable practice?

The rest of the rules we either comply with or they don;t really apply to the popcorn sale.

<<  My understanding is that although the recharter computer system will accept the input of a new leader's information it is not finalized until the council receives and approves a paper application.  A part of the application process now is also that a registration isn't compete or final until the new leader completes YPT --- that is probably what your DE was referring to.>> 

I took in the Adult Leader paperwork for a new adult leader --- Dave.

The council lost Dave's paperwork.   Dave completed the paperwork a second time and it was submitted with our recharter,  and listed on our recharter.  And PAID for.

The next year,  no Dave listed as an existing leader on the recharter.  Dave needs to start over for the THIRD time.

Meanwhile,  Dave has been an active Den Leader for two years,  and is currently a new Webelos Den Leader.  What about the BSA much vaunted check on adult volunteers?  Probably never done.

They don't complete the registration,  but they do keep the money.

Meanwhile,  a big pain in the neck is created for the volunteer and the unit volunteers who try to straighten out such screw ups.

I suspect that councils COULD notify unit leaders of discrepancies in a timely fashion so they could be remedied with a minimum of trouble.  But they don't.

​I Councils and BSA  have created a monstrously complex administrative system which they can't manage effectively,  yet they keep ladling more and more complexity into the system. 

In my opinion this is foolish and destructive.

I collected our Pack recharter packet at Roundtable last Thursday.  Today I knocked out the on line rechartering in about an hour.  Tonight I got our Institutional Head to sign off on the recharter.

Monday I expect to have the Cubmaster and Pack Committee Chair sign off on the recharter.

There are a few loose ends to tie up,  but not many.

My basic strategy for a quick and easy recharter is to recharter with those Scouts and Scouters who have completed the requirements they need to continue in Scouting for another year  ---such as completing Youth Protection Training for adults and paying dues for Scouts.  Everyone not currently up to date gets dropped.

That means the Pack rechartered with five boys and five adults.  As more boys and adults complete the necessaries,  I send in a check to the DE and reactivate that person.

The main reason that rechartering is a pain is that people try to do too much,  waiting for people to do stuff that you can't control.

Instead,  simplify the task by registering those people who have everything done.  Reactivate the laggards later as they get stuff done.

A couple of years ago I registered a new adult leader during recharter.   The next year,  he wasn't listed as a current adult leader in the unit.

We recently had our erecharter packets handed out and the DE explaining recharter methodology.  Someone else mentioned that they had had an adult leader dropped the same as I had.  The DE suggested that this was probably due to lack of some kind of training requirement.  The council will simply drop someone as a leader without notifying anyone.

Anyone else heard of this kind of thing?

Personally,  I consider it outrageous!  If the council wants to drop someone,  fine,  but you owe the unit leaders and the person involved notice of what's happening and why.

Personally,  this sounds like a typical example of what has happened due to the administrative complexity that is a growing problem in Scouting.  It's so complex that people take short cuts which are just plain wrong and are discourteous and could be dangerous.

A person who is dropped as a den leader, Cubmaster or Scoutmaster may continue leading activities ---what happens if something goes wrong?  Will the council disclaim all responsibility and piously note that the activity was being conducted by an unregistered person?

<<

SeattlePioneer, on 11 Oct 2015 - 3:00 PM, said:

 

My concern is that you guys know less about paying taxes than you think you do,  and loudly proclaim your self righteous ignorance.

 

After 22 years of practicing as a tax litigation attorney, I've learned never to think I know everything.  >>

Well,  that's the first time I've heard your claim to real expertise regarding taxes.   

I respect that,  but I don't respect the pieties you've handed out,  implying that those using Scout Accounts were being dishonest.  That line is like the Scouter who dons the mantle of the Uniform Police to badger other people over trivial issues.

The tax angle isn't trivial,  but it can be overdone as well. 

Personally,  Scout Account serve my unit's interests in a variety of ways.  They make it possible for low income families to participate in Scouting without leaning on the family budget.  They induce boys and families to support the unit and the council by selling popcorn.  They teach thrift by allowing boys to purchase their own Scouting adventures through their work.  Many boys learn self confidence in dealing with people through sales efforts.

In short,  selling popcorn and Scout Accounts are a useful part of the Scout program,  in my opinion. I'm not going to give all that up based on exaggerated worries that have never actually resulted in IRS audits of Scout units over Scout accounts.

So I find your warnings worth listening to,  and I've read the comments on Scout account published by BSA.  The bottom line for me is that there are good reasons for doing what we do,  and little reason to forego those benefits.

<<As far as a scout is obedient, I am not blindly obedient to every rule out there when it runs counter to my running the troop right.>>

I agree.

There is also ---- "A Scout is thrifty.  He pays his own way...."

I always liked den flags and find them useful in developing den spirit and solidarity.

Pretty frequently,  I had den opening ceremonies where each den member had their left hand on the den flag,  helping to hold it up,  while doing a Cub Scout salute with the right hand and repeating the Cub Scout Promise or Law of the pack.  So I looked for ways to USE the den flag during activities.

At out June Pack Overnight camp,  I promoted den flag making as an acticvity during the camp.  Each den made a new den flag to go along with their new den level.

Our district day camp made den flags,  but it was a poorly planned activity and used pieces cut out of old Scout Camp tents as flag material. Not too good in practice.

This year, as Day Camp Program Director,  I bought good quality, colorful fabric for each of our twelve dens to make their own den flag.  I also made up colorful symbols for each den that were printed off on a color copier and which dens could use on their den flag if they wished to do so.

Other printed up Cub Scout symbols and images were provided as raw material for den flags if the dens members wanted to use it.  That went pretty well,  in my opinion.

However,  since I haven't been flogging den flags in my Cub Pack,  other den leaders no longer bother.

SO:

Do you find Den flags useful,  and what is your experience with den flags in Cub Scout packs?

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SeattlePioneer, on 07 Oct 2015 - 1:20 PM, said:

Take a look at the personal benefits council settle upon those selling popcorn.  Games! Prizes! Gift Cards!   The top seller in my council gets a FREE TRIP TIO DISNEYLAND, all expenses paid  ---- for the whole family!

 

This is presented as a cost of fundraising or an insubstantial beneffit as I discussed here: http://scouter.com/i...isa’s/?p=426872

 

The key distinction is that the cost of that trip is only a small portion of the Council's proceeds from the sale.  It is not dollar for dollar proceeds from what the scout sells.>>

 

 

 

 

Oh,  when you add in all the thousands of prizes, gift cards and such a council pays out in a popcorn sale,  I'd say it amounts to as much as a typical unit pays out in the typical Scout Account.

And while most Scout Accounts  are related directly to paying for Scouting activities,  the council prizes are usually unrelated to Scouting. 

I continue to suggest that your concerns are exaggerated.   Thousands of Scout units across the country have been managing Scout Accounts for decades,  and critics can't point to a single audit resulting from that.

Having read these concerns in detail for years,  the bottom line for me is that Scout units  reasonably should consider themselves free to conduct such activities in the furtherance of their Scouting goals.

<<. We currently have no CM, the PCC has wrangled the grandpa of one of the scouts in his den to be the CM but I get the impression that he only agreed because he was asked in front of the whole pack. The PCC is planning and running the pack meetings and 5 days before the second pack meeting he had not even thought about what to do.>>

Having quality pack meetings is important!  That means having FUN, exciting pack meetings.

What you seem to be describing are people who don't have a clue how to organize and conduct a pack meeting,  and aren't motivated to figure out how to do the job.

I'd start by working with the Cubmaster and/or Committee Chair on planning the next pack meeting,  with emphasis on having two or more fun activities including a game that involves some kind of competitions which boys will find exciting.  A simple example of that would be making and decorating paper airplanes,  followed by different competitions for distance, accuracy and so on in hitting various targets with their airplanes.  I like stickers  --- award each boy who hits a target or goes a minimum distance a sticker to put on their airplane.

Another would be to have dens make and decorate "chariots" out of cardboard boxes and a piece of rope,  and then have relay races with boys taking turns pulling the chariot around a race course and taking turns being in the chariot.  Award a big sticker each time a den wins a race that they can put on their chariot.

I again note that my council has a prize for the family selling the highest dollar amount of popcorn,  which prize is sending the whole family on an all expense paid trip to Disneyland.  Plus MANY other prizes for Scouts who sell popcorn.

The only difference between these council prizes and the way most ISAs are run is that NONE of the council prizes have anything to do with Scouting.  Most Scout Accounts run by units require that expenditures from ISAs be Scouting related.

In short,  I think that concerns about ISAs are exaggerated.

No solutions there that I see.

Just proposing to double down on stuff that already isn't working,  is what I see.

The biggest problem I see is a GROWING inability/unwillingness of volunteers to step forward to support Scout units.  Lots more children are interested in Scouting but have parents who aren't or have competing activities.

Plus,  Scouting is getting ever more complex for leaders and youth.  Too complex,  in my opinion.

Cub Scout den handbooks can be 200-300 pages long. WAY too much reading and programs that are way too complex.

And Scouting seems to be chasing every fad around in the forlorn hope of latching on to one that will have the appeal that camping had a hundred years ago and decades ago.

We belong to a pack that would be considered dysfunctional at best. It has for years been run with the "good enough" mentality, and the pack leadership that has been around for a while is firmly intrenched in this mindset. Pack meetings are treated as an after thought. Council members refuse to communicate with each other. The pack schedule for the year was decided by one man who appointed himself the Pack Committee Chair and the other committee members (who don't/wont communicate) just follow his lead. The PCC is un-familiar with the new program and has no idea what is suppose to go on in the pack meeting.

Ummm.  I think it's useful and terrific when units do things "by the book."  It's usually a good way,  and often the best way.

But units often get by with compromises because they lack sufficient skills and leadership.  That sounds like the situation described above.

In my opinion,  the most serious problem you describe is that  pack meetings are of indifferent quality.  That IS important!  The Cubmaster is supposed to manage the program and the pack meetings,  perhaps you can offer to help the Cubmaster plan and present the pack meetings.

If the annual meeting plan is a good one,  I wouldn;t worry about it unless you and/or others want to see changes made.  It's burdensome to follow BSA suggestions and spend several hours parsing when each den meeting, pack meeting and activity will be held.  Unless there are people who really want to do that,  I'd look at any particular changes you'd like to see made and discuss those with the Committee Chair.

Take a look at the personal benefits council settle upon those selling popcorn.  Games! Prizes! Gift Cards!   The top seller in my council gets a FREE TRIP TIO DISNEYLAND, all expenses paid  ---- for the whole family!

I again suggest that the exagerated concerns some people try to sell are just a form of troublemaking,  like those who try to make trouble by being the Uniform Police.

If you have a concern,  state it.  But this practice has been going on for decades without significant objection by councils or BSA.  I've never seen anyone who can point to IRS action taken against BSA, councils or units for handing out prizes and benefits in connection with popcorn sales.

At some point if someone can't let the issue rest,  they are a problem that interferes with good Scouting practices.

In all parts of Scouting you find people who want to impose their own exaggerated ethical standards on others.

An example are the uniform police who carp and criticize people over unimportant details of uniforming.

For unit treasurers,  this is often expressed by those who want to impose their own exaggerated Scout Account concerns.

Personally,  I pay no attention to these people who have a burr under their saddles. 

They are best ignored.

Our council,  unit and our boys benefit hugely from Scout accounts.  In our low income area,  it means that those interested can have the Scouting program for their families at no cost to the family budget.    In my opinion,  that is FAR more important than the exaggerated warnings of the Scout Account Police often seen on this board.

The Uniform Police are best ignored, and that goes for the Scout Account Police as well.    Unfortunately,  they lack a sense of proportion in applying the Scout Oath and Law,  in my opinion. If I had someone like that in my unit,  they would soon fine themselves unwelcome as being poor examples of Scouting.

It's a lot tougher to plan a den meeting than it is to conduct one.

I'd identify one person who is willing and able to organize den meetings, and another couple of people who will present the den meeting program to two dens.  The person planning the den meetings could conduct one of the program meetings if they wish to do so.

<<

Not sure if it is a national requirement or not, but having one WFA trained adult is required for all backcountry outing in our Council.  I can't imagine any parent letting their child go on a backcountry adventure without having someone appropriately trained and I can't imaging being responsible for the safety of a group of boys without having that training.

We have at least 4 adults in our Troop that have WFA training -- typicaly two of them go on every outing - backcountry or not.>>

Fine,  for your troop. 

But it's pointlessly burdensome for a lot of troops.  The list of training required for a SM or AS is already too long.

And frankly,  it's overkill for backpacking,  in my experience.  In the Seattle area,  the Seattle Mountaineers organizes a lot of outdoor outings. Mountaineering Oriented First Aid is required for climbers,  not backpackers, snowshoers, cyclists, cross country skiers and so on.

My council recently started requiring annual YPT  --- another pointlessly excessive regulation.

I took a test to get my driver's license forty years ago  --- do you think they should start requiring annual driver's tests to drive high speed vehicles around with current accident rates?

Frankly,  I've about had it with Scouting.  They are driving the program into the ground.

Our new Webelos Den Leader was also an excellent Wolf and Bear Den Leader. 

I got him the new Webelos handbook and Program Helps for Webelos,  and he asked how he could get through all the material in the new program.

That has been my concern about the new program too  --- it seems like FAR too much detail is expected of Cub Scouts and Den Leaders.

In my view, the heart of Scouting is to learn to live by the Scout Oath and Law.

Boys discover that if they are going to go camping,  they NEED to live by the Scout Oath and Law to be successful and avoid killing each other out of frustration!

So in my view,  all the academic junk in Cub Scouts is really optional.  The priorities are that boys learn how to get along with each other and with adults, and how to be decent to other people,  and to learn to Do Your Best.  If you learn that,  you have learned most of what's important in Cub Scouts.

The PROGRAM ought to provide some of the grist for learning those values.

Instead, the academic program has eaten the Scouting program almost whole.

In my view,  the proper priorities in Cub Scouts should be 1)  HAVING FUN   2. Learning to get along with other boys and adults  3)  Being in the habit of doing your best

Cub Scouts seems to be getting farther and farther away from those values and priorities.

Incidentally,  I rarely hear much in the way of comments about Girls Scout program.  It seems that Girls Scouts are free to do whatever the leaders want to do,  as long as they sell cookies.

I'm thinking Cub Scouts could do with leaving more up to Cub Scout Leaders and less trying to dictate a lot of detail with what they should do.

^<<

^{true, but you'd hope that you'd not be run off from the campfire discussion with other scouters before you end your scouting "career"}

^>>

^{Oh,  no one is running me off.  I'm looking for graceful ways to separate myself from activities I've done in the past.  Unfortunately,  the pack doesn't have the depth of leadership needed to replace me,  so more gets dumped on the Cub Master,  who can only do so much.}

^{It's sad to see.} 
 

The real bottom line is that everyone quits sooner or later.

<<Sadly I have seen a significant shift in all scouting forums that I don't care for and simply will not stand for without speaking out.    I see scouting moving from it's middle class base to the rich suburbs.    Requirement short cutting,  eagle chasing parents,  High dollar trips and Family adventure being the norm. >>

The packs and troops I have worked with have all been marginal units in lower middle class to poor areas.  Unfortunately,  they are marginal units because of lack of interest by a lot of the families living in those areas,  while rich suburbs recruits scads of boys just by ringing a bell.

Unfortunately,  a lot of people lack the time, money and inclination to participate in Scouting.  If they don't join,  then the rich suburbs are supplying a larger part of the membership.

I've donme my best to swim against that tide by recruiting more lower middle class and poor people,  and more Latinos in particular. Very tough sledding is the bottom line.

Personally,  I'm put off by "High Adventure Bases"  and the super expensive Disneyland style of national attraction that BSA national seems to be growing as a program.  I have no interest in that,  and my aim is quality Scouting programs that are locally based and low in cost. 

<<Requirement short cutting,  eagle chasing parents>>

Nothing new there,  unfortuantely.

Personally,  I'm worn out and aiming to retreat from Cub Pack responsibilities I've shouldered or back stopped for nine years.  Not easy to do,  however. 

I'm not going to be a program leader under the new Cub Scout program.  Not interested in learning how to run a new program where my old skills have been made ob solete.

I was aiming to stay out of recruiting this fall,  but have been dragged back into it for the pack I've worked with,  and we have a recruiting night tonight.  We need to find a Tiger Cub and a Wolf Den Leader among families recruited tonight. 

So we're going to find out what happened, right?

Ummmm.  In our pack the dens usually meet in a large,  common room.  But they meet separately.

I  typically had a gathering activity which often was stretched until ten minutes into the regular den meeting time because families were commonly later arriving.

( I often had FUN gathering activities, with the hope that parents would show up on time,  but that's always been a forlorn hope.)

We had an opening flag ceremony to call the den meeting to order,  and went right into our planned activities.

To the greatest extent possible I avoided "announcements"  because they are usually boring for boys.

The den meeting time was for BOYs the Pack Committee Meeting and e-mails were for PARENTS.

I'm determined not to be a den leader this year,  after having spent eight years as the Tiger Cub Den Leader.

However,  I am growing pumpkins  that I'll make available to a den leasder for pumpkin carving,  and I have a nifty way for boys to make a pumkin carving tool.   I'll make that and some other activities available for den leaders who want to use them from time to time.