sctmom

I saw one new parent have a hard time with giving her son the cash for him to give to the patrol leader. She thought she should give the cash to the Scoutmaster. She was a little surprised when I explained otherwise. When I was about 12 or 13, my parents decided to give me the money they spent on my clothes. I could buy whatever I wanted, within certain guidelines. Wanted expensive designer jeans? Go right ahead. But if I complained about only having one pair of jeans when I could have bought 2 or 3 pair by waiting for a sale or buying a different brand, they had no pity. I could even spend the money on magazines and records (the old days), but don't complain if I had no new clothes. Didn't take me long to learn to check for quality and sale signs.

Let me wipe away the tears in my eyes. I'm so happy Julia. I was wondering if he got the shirt yet and saw your post. I've been watching ebay for some scout pants for my son and I've yet to see another 6X shirt since then. More than coincedence? Take some good pictures at that parade, because it sounds like a few new scouts will be standing tall and proud.

If I show up at a public demonstration to support gay rights in my BSA uniform or saying I am representing BSA, I am wrong. If I show up at a troop meeting with a t-shirt that says "I am gay and proud of it." I am wrong, I'm outwardly trying to provoke people or to influence the youth. If I'm lobbying for organizations to pull their support of BSA because of this issue while at the same time being an active BSA member, I'm wrong. If you ask me my thoughts on this issue, I have the right and the duty to say what I believe in. If I say I agree or I keep silent, I have lied. I also have not been true to myself and my beliefs. "If you voice it in public and the BSA removes you, I fully support their right to do so." This is against practically everything that BSA teaches the youth it serves. To voice my opinion in public is my RIGHT and DUTY, I repeat. I cannot say I am speaking for BSA. I do not have that authority. According to your rules, if I wear a shirt with the competitor's name to work, I can be fired for that. What if my spouse works for the competitor? I've heard of people being "asked" not to wear the shirt from the competitor, but not fire over it. Maybe OGE is Bret Favre's brother. He can't support his brother? He can be fired for that. If National feels the need to release someone like me from stating what I believe in, when asked, then maybe I don't want to be part of the organization. I hope that anyone removed because of voicing their opinion against ANY issue of BSA is VERY LOUD about letting the world know. I'm female, BSA says I can be a Scoutmaster. Some regular posters on this board have said they don't think women should be Scoutmasters. That is in direct opposition of what National says. Do I think they should be kicked out? No way. I don't agree with them, but I see no reason to remove them. Even if they tell the boys in the troop they don't like seeing a woman in BSA. I don't post on here by my real name, but I bet anyone who knows me can read this and my profile and recognize me. How many other troops in this district are dealing with the exact same problems and had the same experiences on campouts at the same time I have? Hmmm...not many. So, if any feels I need to be removed from BSA....go ahead. I will always know I stood by MY principles and what is right for my family. The same as most everyone else on this board.

Here in Georgia the Boy Scout camps range from $130 to $180. The top end being a council that charges extra for out of council units. Cub Scout Day Camp in our District is about $70, I think $100 if you register late. The YMCA is offering "day camp" or daycare are the rate of $190 for 2 weeks. Most daycares charge $100 a week during the summer for school aged children. 4-H camp is $190 for Monday - Friday (4 nights) summer camp. I've known of people who have sent their young elementary school children to private camps for weeks at a time, out of state. I have no idea what they paid for that. But if 2nd grader can handle weeks away from mom, I think our 11 year old Boy Scouts can handle 1 week away with his friends at summer camp.

A related article: www.mormonstoday.com/000709/N1Scouting01.shtml

When I signed my son up for baseball, I specified that he cannot practice on Tuesday nights (troop meeting night). The coach asked why not Tuesday's? I told him because of scouting. His reply was "well, when my son was in Cub Scouting, this time of year they don't do a lot because they know kids are playing ball, so it shouldn't be a problem." I tried to explain, but it fell on deaf ears, this isn't Cub Scouting and this IS my son's preference. My son reminded me to make sure he got on a team that didn't practice on Tuesday nights. Even in Cubs, my son didn't want to miss meetings. I think there are some good lessons to be learned in organized sports about teamwork, perserverance, leadership, etc. Yet there must be a balance. My parents didn't encourage us to be involved in anything. If we wanted to be on a team or take lessons they would do what they could, but only the absolute minimum. All 3 of us now regret that. My neices and nephews are grown, and my brother and sister came to the realization a little too late of the benefits from being in an organized group (sports or scouting or church). We all 3 talk about how our parents attitudes made us drop out of things. That no one ever questioned why we quit different activities. My parents would tell you they were trying not to be overbearing, we saw indifference. We were children, we need our parents to tell us to stick it out a little longer or for them to get involved and make sure it was a good experience.

Interestingly enough, I have a very hard time finding an address for BSA National. I can't seem to find it on the official BSA website. Looked in the Boy Scout handbook and don't see it there. Not just about this issue, but in general, it seems that BSA should gladly say "send us your comments, here is where we are." Most parents do not even know who to go to other than the Scoutmaster. They don't know about the Committee, Charter Rep, District, or Council.

One other thing, a year ago I had doubts about my son being ready for Boy Scouts and summer camp by now. I never told him that. He really proved me wrong! He has been growing a lot -- physically, mentally and emotionally. The only time I would stop him from trying something new would be if I felt it was truly unsafe. Like I want let him have a mini-bike (mean mother that I am). I could have gotten away with putting him on the 9-10 baseball team this season, his birthday is near the cutoff and he is small. I didn't do that -- for one thing I would be lieing about his age. But also, I know he is more mature than the 9 year olds, not that he's a great ball player. He can make decisions on the field quicker, he can learn baseball skills easier, he is starting to understand the finer points of the game. I was concerned about him being the youngest and smallest on his team. That concern went away after the second practice. He is living up to the challenges put to him at this age level. He would be bored with the 9 & 10 year olds.

In a few other threads there have been mention of parents who feel their boys aren't ready for certain adventures like summer camping and backpacking. Do many of you run into this? How do you deal with it? Chippewa mentioned that the parents don't think the boys are ready to backpack, even though the boys have been in scouting a couple of years, have camped a lot and done day hikes. Also, most importantly, the boys WANT to go backpacking. As a parent, I'm amazed. My son is almost 11 years old and weighs 60 pounds fully dressed. If he wanted to backpack, I'd say "Great! Let's get your gear." There is only one way to find out if he can do it, that is to DO IT! Chippewa, I would like to suggest you continue to talk this up to the boys and parents. Show the parents the planning that goes into backpacking. Show them how risks are planned for. How great are the risks when and where you are going? Are you going during blizzard season? Are you climbing Mt. Everest? I doubt it. What's the worse that can happen? Are they just worried about the boys ability to carry the packs? I think the boys know their strength better than anyone, and will be the first too tell you if something is too heavy. I have never backpacked, but from what I hear it is a great oppurtunity for the boys to push themselves, not just physically but also emotionally.

Even at young ages, coaches and some parents expect children to devote all spare time to their "sport". My son's baseball coach thinks that the 11-12 year old team needs to practice every night of the week right now. Every night! For 2 hours! HELLO! He has homework, Scout meeting, 4-H project due THIS week. Not to mention eating dinner, bathing, playing and sleeping! Except for summer camp, I've never heard of a scout having to devote EVERY evening to working on Scout skills. Yes, he must live up to the Scout Oath and Law at all times, but that doesn't monopolize his time and I believe will take him much further in life. Excuse me -- just had to vent for a moment. GO SCOUTING!

Well said, Long Haul. Thank you. I am NOT trying to destroy BSA. I do NOT agree with pulling funding for BSA. But I DO have the right AND the responsibility to stand up for what I believe in. Do I say these things at a troop meeting? No. It has no place there. This forum is an approriate place. I have the write to express my opinions and beliefs to other adults, just like I tell them what a great thing Scouting is, if the situation arises. Quote from the BSA Handbook "A Scout is brave. ...He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him." "A Scout is reverent...."He respects the beliefs of others." "It is your duty to respect and defend others' rights to their religious beliefs even when they differ from your own." "A Scout is obedient....."He obyes the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them....Obedience must be guided by good judgment. If someone tells you to cheat, steal, or do something else you know is wrong, you must say no. Trust your own beliefs and obey your conscience when you know you are right." By expressing my opinion I am NOT being disobedient. I am not going against any policy or law.

YES, women working or wanting to remain single was considered ABNORMAL as recent as 50 years ago! At the turn of the century, it was THE mainstream belief about women. Something was "wrong" with Susan B. Anthony for wanting to remain single, for wanting to vote, etc. Most recently, Andrea Yates was told that a "good" wife did what her husband said, didn't use birth control, and home schooled her children. She was told this by her church. Does it make her not guilty - no, but it contributed to her problems. Bob, do you REALLY want everyone who disagrees with the policy to leave? As many of us have said, we don't agree, we will not be silent yet we will think SO much of BSA as a whole, we will not leave. Do we have to ALL be a certain way for it to be "normal"? We ALL have to be exactly alike? If it is "abnormal" and God disapproves so much, then why doesn't GOD stop people from being homosexual -- oh, wait, I remember -- it's their "choice". They are "choosing" to disobey God, live in fear, get beat up, be discriminated against in jobs and housing, have their families hate them. Okay, stepping off my soapbox for the moment. We seem to have, once again, strayed far from the original point of this thread.

"How would you feel if your son went on a camping trip and you found out one or more of the leaders were homosexuals? Do you feel these people are good role models for your son? Do you want him to look up to them? " If the person is working with the youth, acting as a responsible adult, meeting all the other criteria of "good role model", I would have NO problem with it. If my child is inspired by someone who happens to be homosexual, so be it. I have worked with female homosexuals, they have never tried to "hit" on me. I realize as an adult that some people I knew growing up were homosexual (youth and adults), they never tried to "corrupt" me. They never mentioned it. It wasn't a topic of conversation. I was aware that a male relative was "different" than the other men in the family, now I know why. But he is also one of the most caring, loving, likeable people in that part of the family -- I'd trust him with my son. I also think he is a good role model -- he has worked hard throughout his life, he cares for others -- visiting home bound elderly on a regular basis, he is there for the family in time of grief, he is friendly, etc. Does have an "abnormal" lifestyle make a bad role model? Not necessarily. For a long time it was "abnormal" for a woman to want to be single, work outside of the home or get a college education -- backed up by religion saying this was bad (and some Christians still say this is bad). Does that make all women who want to work bad role models?

What "they" want is to be treated as equal. Dale was a BSA member, had been for some time. BSA said "because of OUR political views we are getting rid of you". He sued to be part of something he already was a part of! Many people see no reason for this policy to continue. I am against the policy. That does not mean I'm trying to make "political inroads". It means that I want BSA to stop discriminating against a group of people who can provide, and have provided in the past, service to the youth of BSA. If I use your logic, if a company refuses me employment because I'm female (short, tall, overweight, smoker, etc.), then I should walk away and so "oh well, they don't like me". Everyone keeps saying that homosexuals are not good role models. I stand by that is not a good enough reason, there are many groups that are not good role models but BSA does not discriminate against them across the board. Should we ban all smokers? I don't smokers are good role models, and can find lots of people who agree with me. I want more than just "they don't smoke in front of the kids". This is asking no more than the ban on homosexuals ask.

Can you call the packs? Do you know when and where they hold their pack meetings and go visit?

I agree with Ed, I'd like to see some statistics. I'm reminded the cause/effect example I heard in a college class --- more people buy ice cream during the summer, more people are raped during the summer; therefore the buying of ice cream is causing people to commit rape. I don't doubt most boys can learn what they need to in order to be First Class in First Year. I agree that it is crucial to learn these basic skills so they can enjoy other Scouting adventures. Yet, I just don't see the correlation of FCFY and staying in scouting. These are also the kids who stick with things they start, the ones who had a higher interest walking in the door, the ones whose parents won't let them walk out on Scouting for no reason. How do we know what is the real cause of retention? I see that FCFY is an indication of you are conducting a good, active program. But it shouldn't be the one and only focus.

Bob White says: "A big problem with the BSA on this issue is the politicizing of it. For most involed it is not about serving youth it is about making a political inroad, and the BSA does not intend to sacrifice itself as someone elses political pawn. " Where does this come from? What leads you to believe it is ONLY about "making a political inroad"? If so, what is the point of that "political inroad"?

Here is a comparison of BSA to a few other youth activities. This may mean nothing or it may mean something. Just food for thought. BSA (year 2000) youth 3,351,969 Adults 1,209,077 GSUSA (current website) youth 2,800,000 Adults 942,000 Campfire USA (current website) 650,000 youth (some of this is after-school type programs not traditional clubs that are like Scouting) YMCA 17.9 million men, women, and children This includes everything from sports to art classes Organized Sports Out of 48,374,000 youth (estimate of 1995) the following Agency Sponsored (Little League) 21,768,300 Rec Dept sponsored 14,512,200 Intramural 4,837,400 Interscholastic 5,804,000 Club sports (gymnastics, swimming) 2,418,700 (many youth participate in more than one of the above)

I agree with Eisely that it's not about changing the program for the minorities, it's about convincing them the program is for them as well. A year or so ago I saw an article about a town around Kentucky or Tennessee that had a large population of Asians. The article touched on how strong Scouting was in that community. That Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting taught the type of patriotism and values of the Asian familes. They showed a Cub Scout den that was large and was 100% Asian descendent. I had some black boys in my Webelos den these past couple of years. The families were involved in church and seemed to have very high values. For some reason they continued to see Scouting as "just another after school activity". They couldn't see the importance of camping or even a day hike. It just wasn't important to them. The boys wanted to camp but the parents were never willing to make the sacrifice to take them (with at least 8 different chances to go in about 1 year). They never even visited a Boy Scout troop. The parents said the kids weren't interested anymore --- this would be the same kids who others commented on how excited these boys were.

By the way, here are the Five Pillars of Islam. The Testimony of Faith The testimony of faith is saying with conviction, "La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah." ("There is no true god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.") The testimony of faith is the most important pillar of Islam. Prayer Muslims perform five prayers a day. The Prophet Muhammad said: Bilal, call (the people) to prayer, let us be comforted by it. (Bilal was one of Muhammad's companions). Prayers are performed at dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset, and night. Giving Zakat (Support of the Needy) All things belong to God, and wealth is therefore held by human beings in trust. For most purposes, this involves payment each year of 22 percent of one's capital. Fasting the Month of Ramadan Every year in the month of Ramadan, all Muslims fast from dawn until sundown, abstaining from food, drink, and sexual relations. The Pilgrimage to Makkah (Mecca) The annual pilgrimage (Hajj) to Makkah is an obligation once in a lifetime for those who are physically and financially able to perform it.

I agree with Big Beard, BSA needs more advertising. The program can be the most fun a boy ever has, but if the parents don't see a "need" then he will not get there. If a kid is hearing "oh, I have to drive you scouts AGAIN tonight?" or things like that, he will drop out. What about the kids who don't want high adventure? That have no interest in climbing, long distance backpacking trips or white water rafting. What do you offer them?

Bradley County Commission rejects request to post Islamic tenets By The Associated Press March 30, 2002 CLEVELAND, Tenn. - Bradley County, one of several Tennessee counties that voted recently to post the Ten Commandments, has been asked to extend its endorsement of religious documents in public places to include the Five Pillars of Islam. The county commission has been asked several times by Rachel Cate, a student at Cleveland High School, to post the Islamic document alongside the Old Testament one. "This is not only a Christian nation but a nation for everyone," Cate told the commission at its most recent meeting last week. "I think it is discriminatory not to decide on the Five Pillars of Islam just as you decided on the Ten Commandments." The commission has so far declined to grant Cate's request. "At this point we have our agendas full, and there's no point in the immediate future to address that," Commission Chairman Mike Smith told Cate. Smith said he respects Cate's beliefs but believes that it would be inappropriate to post the Five Pillars, particularly since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks that have been blamed on Islamic extremists.. One of the commissioners, Howard Thompson, debated with Cate during her last appearance over whether there are five or six pillars, contending the sixth pillar is "jihad," or holy war. There are actually five pillars, not six, according to The Columbia Encyclopedia. The five pillars are ascribed to Muhammad. Jihad is a duty of the devout. The encyclopedia defines jihad as an exertion on behalf of God, at both the personal and community level. At the personal level it denotes an individual's struggle to be righteous. Cate has contacted the American Civil Liberties Union in Tennessee. The ACLU's executive director, Hedy Weinberg, said she appreciates Cate's efforts, although the organization would oppose actually posting the Five Pillars of Islam for the same reasons it opposes posting the Ten Commandments. "Rachel Cate asked them to post another religious document in the hope of having them understand that county governments cannot and should not promote one religious doctrine over another," Weinberg said. "Any county commission needs to recognize their responsibility is to uphold religious freedom for all people in their community." Weinberg said the state chapter resorts to lawsuits only as a last resort. It has sued Hamilton County, which is next to Bradley County, over its decision to post the Ten Commandments in a public building. "Our goal is to help the Bradley County Commission understand they are, in fact, eroding religious freedom rather than promoting it when they post the Ten Commandments," Weinberg said. "The commission's refusal to even consider her proposal makes it clear the commission is using its power to promote one religious doctrine over others."

A lot of threads people say "but that's not scouting" or something like that. Okay, then what IS Scouting?

Studies still show that girls do not get the attention at school in math and science that boys do. Even though schools have been coed for a long time now, girls and boys still get treated differently regardless of the gender of the teacher. In general boys and girls act differently when the other sex is around, especially when they are hitting puberty. Females tend to let males take the lead roles. Males tend to think they have to be in the lead. Also, how many teenage boys will do silly skits and games in front of teenage girls? Same for girls --how many will do silly things in front of boys? Not many! My vote is for seperate.

Many of recent threads have said the exclusion of gay leaders is not contributing to the drop in membership. None of us can prove if it is or not. Many have touched on the fact the program should be reaching more youth and doing more to keep boys in scouting. Let's discuss how to get more youth in scouting and keep them. What is BSA doing now about that? How is BSA changing to address some current issues such as demographics changing, attitudes changing, single parent families, etc.? One program Girl Scouting has is specifically for girls whose mother is in prison. Would this be a good thing for BSA to do for boys? How to we get more charter organizations? How do we recruit the parents to sign their boys up? In my area most Cub packs are chartered by the schools, someone goes and talks up the program to the boys. If the kid forgets to tell the parents or just isn't paying attention, they don't get in. Some of the kids might enjoy it with a push from the parents. Targeting specific ethnic groups does not mean you have to change the program (as someone mentioned). It means you have to sell the parents that the program ties in with THEIR values and what they want for their kids. Is BSA doing this? Can they do this? Thoughts?