sctmom

There are 2 different bakers that make Girl Scout Cookies. I bought Samoas in one county, drove 10 minutes into another county and bought Carmel Delights. It just depends on if you got them from ABC Bakers or Little Brownie Bakers (I think those are the right names). Each council makes it own choice of which baker to use.

JMC tells a good story. There are conditions such as Tourette's that could be causing this. He could even have some emotional problems (anger, fear) about his lack of eyesight. He may think he has to sound and act "tough" to be accepted. He may think he can get away with it since he has the eyesight problem. I think a talk with the parents may help, just to see how they handle it at home and how is it handled at school. Or is this just something he does at scouts? Last month at a troop campout, one of the boys was cussing and yelling. He was quickly pulled aside and it stopped. He has been a scout for a year. He was put in a patrol with a lot of new scouts and made patrol leader. He is immature and apparently wanted to sound like "the big guy" to the younger boys. It didn't go over well with anyone. Luckily he stopped it quickly when told this was wrong.

But it is SO much more than just having something for your application or resume. A boy who has been in scouting, especially an Eagle, knows about leadership, talking to adults, interviewing (board of review and merit badge work), team work, teaching others, perservance, service to others, independence. Plus all the things they learn from merit badges --- like the Citizenship badges and First Aid. Many of the merit badges introduce them to academic subjects -- chemistry, scholarship, engineering, forestry. They learn how to find out information for their merit badges, how to ask questions. These skills will help them with academic subjects, dorm life, social activities, extra curricular clubs, scholarship interviews, and job interviews.

It's hard for a 16 year old to think past NOW. I pointed out that even the experience of sitting for a board of review is good for college. Many scholarships are based on personal interviews. I know I had never experienced such when I went for a scholarship. Had no idea what to do. I recently read an article that said most (like 75%, I think) high school students have cheated in school and think there is nothing wrong with it. The kids said "it's all about making good grades, we have to do that to go to college". There is so much focus on grades and standarized tests, no matter what the costs.

Talked to a few parents and scouts last night about retention of the older boys. A recurring theme I heard was "with the school load and honors classes, it's hard to stay as involved." One young man, 16 year old, was asked if he thought being a scout would help him in college. His answer was "not academically". An experienced Scouter and long time Eagle explained to him how scouting would help him in college and in career. Also, the theme of "my friends are all gone from the troop" came up. He said 1/2 just left and 1/2 had reached Eagle then left. Right or wrong, I thought these were interesting comments about school. As far as I know these arent' kids who play sports. They feel that once they hit 11th grade they have to focus on getting the grades for college.

I think Bob is right on target. Something to keep in mind may be the "why" is he this way. It could be he just hasn't been taught better by his parents, perhaps they aren't very tactful themselves. Tactfulness is a learned behavior. The other is he may have a problem such as ADHD and not be catch on to social clues very well. Or it could just be he is immature and will grow up. Hang in there and have faith in him.

Let me explain the length between campouts. That is NOT usual for this troop. The one planned for April turned into a day long outing because of what the boys want to do (golf). Just found out some boys will campout that night if they want to. My son has chosen not to. May is the month of the mega-yardsale fundraiser. Hard to ask parents and boys to give up a weekend for fundraising and another for camping, same month as Mother's Day and Memorial Day and end of school and baseball and soccer and........ Some of the adult leaders work nights and have to take a vacation day for things like campouts and yardsales, so 2 in one month is too much. Thanks for the feedback. The only months the troop doesn't camp is May and December. They are the most active troop in our area. That's one of the main reason we choose it.

Bob, you speak highly of the new scout patrol method. Did you see my other thread about the parents who pulled their boys out BECAUSE OF the new scout patrol method? That is due to a perception they walked in the door with. They didn't stick around long enough for training. That is one area where a better national campaign could help retention. In regards to your comment about how many years the movement has been happening without lots of ads, that was before we were all bombarded with TV, radios, billboards, newspapers. Sports players weren't paid millions just for signing up. Sports scholarships weren't considered "the ticket" to your future. Society changes, if Scouting doesn't change with it, it will die. I'm not saying to change the basis of the program, but to accept the reality of today's world. Scouting is a business, marketing is important. Even churchs use marketing now to get people in the door.

Comments about youth sports teaching or not teaching teamwork --- I have an example of a coach who really taught teamwork. My son played basketball these past 2 winters on community league. He is much shorter than most of the kids his age, but fast and dedicated. He would do great in practice with shooting, but just couldn't get a shot during the games. Finally a game where our boys were way ahead, the coach pulls the boys together and says "get the ball to him and let him shoot." Tells my kid to just stay open. The other kids were more than happy to do this. He still didn't get a shot in the goal, even though he put up a few. After the game, the boys said "don't worry, we are going to get you the shots, next game is for you." Final game of the season, same thing, our team is winning. The other boys gave up easy shots to give my son the ball. He finally got one in! The team goes wild, the parents go wild. I was of course proud of my son, but also soooo proud of the coaches and the other boys. Whether it is sports or Scouts, kids just want to play and have fun.

I have let my son quit 2 things. One was football. It became clear he would be absolutely miserable and so would I. They wanted 8 year olds to practice in 100 degree weather for 2 hours a night, 3 nights a week. Then when the season started, the practices would continue and games on Saturday. This would go on for months. I asked a number of men who either played football as youth or coached youth football. They all said this was too much for such a young age and to let him out, otherwise we would both hate it forever. It was only the second week of practice and they gave me back my money. He really just wanted the uniform. I did let him take a break from Cub Scouts a few years ago. We were all burnt out, including myself and ex-husband. My son was having a hard time at school. We took a few months off, with the understanding that he could go back later. The leadership was shaky, my husband and I didn't feel we could be leaders at the time. My son was not having fun, and the other boys were picking on him or ignoring him. After he got school under control he asked to go back into Scouting. We all needed that 6 month or so break. Now he just earned his AOL and is starting off good in Boy Scouts. I don't regret that break at all. I didn't just go by his wants with each of those, I tried to look at the whole picture and consult others. Some said I shouldn't let him quit football. I was proud he even tried, since he weighed 50 pounds and was playing with kids weighing in at 70. Quitting because it interferes with school work is a "good" reason. Quitting because it's difficult at times or inteferes with TV watching or parties is NOT a "good" reason. As Rooster says, I have more wisdom than a child and have the right and responsibility to override his decisions.

Bob asks how will a great ad campaign help? 1 - It will get more people in the door to begin with. 2 - The ones who are currently showing up will have a better idea first walking in about whay Boy Scouting is about. Then the training will sink in a little quicker and not be such a shock. Will it save all the boys we are currently losing? No. I believe that there are many boys and families who are never showing up that would had great value to the program. They would take training, the program does fit into their family values, they would promote the program from inside and outside, adding value to the program, therefore helping with the retention. Is it the answer to all problems? Nope. Because all the other problems will continue to exist. Except if more parents are involved, then all the official BSA positions could be filled at the unit, district and council. Then all the training could be done and done frequently. And the program can be offered as planned because you have enough people to do the job and do it right. Like some many things, it all works together and good things feed off of other good things.

With all due respect Bob White, training is not the answer to all. You said "The information on how scouting works is readily available for any adult. " I was a Cub Scout parent for 3 years before becoming a leader. My ex-husband was a leader for 2 years. We were doing good to find out about training as a leader! That is the training that is offered in our district or council. I have yet to see BALOO offered in our council in the last year. Most parents aren't going to take 90 minutes to sit through training. Many never stop out of their car for the meetings. They don't see why THEY have to be trained, THEY aren't running the program, THEY aren't the scout leaders. I agree with the posts about a booklet like the Child Protection booklet. But let me say this, to earn the Webelos Badge the parents must sign that they read the Parent's section of the Webelos handbook. It is probably about the length and content what you guys are thinking about. I had parents sign off and then not have a clue about what was going on. I know I've rambled a lot on this subject, but is fresh in my mind from dealing with Webelos parents. And it is near and dear to my heart since I lost most of my Webelos from scouting completely. Same parents who didn't read the book would complain about not enough time. I had one mom who was the only single one out of the bunch. Dealing with 3 kids ages 9 to 17, no relatives near by, not a lot of money, etc. She had time to read the book. She would sometimes call me up and we would go through the book together about things that her son needed to make up if he missed a meeting or things that he could do on his own or things she could tie into schoolwork. She found ways to get him to meetings and campouts. Our sons happen to be good friends. A couple of times when we couldn't take the boys to a big Cub Scouting event for whatever reason, we would spend a Saturday together working with them on projects. She periodically went through his book to see what needed to be done. Other parents had no idea what was required for Arrow of Light or where to even find it in the book. I sent home newsletter after newsletter spelling things out. Calendars galore, still things were a "surprise to them". You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. The structured training will not answer the problems of parents who won't sit still and listen, nor the parents who think they already know everything.

I didn't know where to post this as it hits upon many current threads. Many of you have read my posts about the parents who left a campout because they weren't pleased with what they saw. One of their friends was not on the campout, even though his son was. Today I saw him and he wanted to chat about the troop. His first question was "why would a Scoutmaster not ensure that the new scouts had a good experience on their first campout?" My question back was "what did the boys have a problem with?" He said "uhh..nothing, let me ask my son." Son said "I had a good time, it was fun." When directly questioned the boy said he did hear some older boys cussing. Yep, so did I...and I saw the SM correct pull the boy aside and never heard it again. We chatted for a few minutes. Much of the problem seems to be about "inexperienced patrol leaders" and "patrol leader was only 1 year older than the rest of the patrol". I tried to explain the new scout patrol method. I also pointed out that even within scouting there is not a 100% agreement about it's use and effectiveness. This guy is retired military and equated it to putting a private in charge of a unit. I said I thought part of the problem was there wasn't enough troop interaction and visiting before the crossover. He agreed with this. These people are now in a different troop that has had it share of problems but is going through some adult leadership changes. These parents were very involved in Cub Scouting. I think even with a lot of training about Boy Scouting, they aren't going to easily accept the new scout patrol method or understand that a young scout CAN be a patrol leader and be a darn good one. That much of the boy leadership learning is "on the job training". They felt the adults should have been more hands on. They also didn't seem willing to discuss and try to work out their issues. Maybe because they knew they had a "backup" troop to go to at any moment, just waiting for the leadership to change. I thought many of you would like hearing this "why we left" story. There may be more to it that I'm not getting told or just not hearing.

Rooster makes some good points about credibility. The sad part is that even if you point out THIS is the BSA way, not just my personal preference, there are some people who aren't going to care. My mother is well intentioned but she made a remark last year that I think will illustrate my point. She went with us on a Cub Scout Family campout. After being around some of the other parents and leaders, I was telling her what a great guy the other leader was and how good he was with the boys. Her comment was "Yeah, he seems great. Seems like the type of guy who won't just go by the book." Wellllll.....how often is it a good idea to NOT go "by the book" of BSA? Seems to me that most BSA books aren't so strict that you can't tailor it for your situation. Are other parents this way? Haven't I heard of the parents and trained leaders saying "but this is the way I discipline at home or on the ball field"? We have those parents to deal with as well. Just playing devil's advocate here. Not trying to sound so pessimistic.

Along with the law, what is RIGHT. What is the respectable way to treat people when we don't agree? This should be thought about if you are the protester or the one with the "power" to kick people out.

As a recent Webelos Leader let me speak up here --- Am I part of the problem of boys not staying in the troop? YES!!!! It is possible to provide the Cub Scout program according to BSA's documentation and still not prepare the boys for the troop. A boy can get his Arrow of Light and have never camped or tied a knot other than the square knot. He has to visit ONE troop meeting and ONE "Boy Scout oriented outdoor activity". Lots of things meet that criteria without the boys or the parents have a good clue, must less a good grasp, on what is BOY SCOUTING. As someone else mentioned, the youth led concept in Girl Scouting starts with the Kindergarteners. In Cub Scouting, the boys could go 5 years without ever making a decision about anything. The parents don't know the difference. They think one of 2 things: Boy Scouting is just like Cub Scouting OR Boy Scouting is so separate of a program that the 5th grade is a time to drop out. I went to Webelos leader training. I was told some good stuff and some wrong stuff. I wasn't given a good, accurate picture of what a good troop looks like. Without knowing what a good troop looked like, how could I prepare my boys? Then through in parents having been told "Cub Scouting meets 3 nights a month, for one hour each night". Try changing that expectation. Try covering the Webelos program in 2 hours per month-- MAX! Try convincing these parents that camping and other activities in scouting are important. Also, I became a leader at the beginning of Webelos I with 3 new scouts, 2 existing scouts. Second year I had 5 more new scouts. Even the leader manuals of the 2 programs are very different. I worked hard for the last year or so finding out about the Boy Scouting program. Spending hours upon hours looking for info on the web, buying myself a Scoutmaster handbook and Boy Scout handbook. Spending hours reading forums like these, asking questions, contemplating answers, joining in online chat rooms. There are still areas I don't fully understand. I'm not that stupid of a person, in fact I learn pretty darn quick. So, what about the Cub Leader who does the minimum to get by, or doesn't have access to the internet, or the time to do the research? How will they know? Even if they attend training, monthly roundtables, and follow the Cub & Webelos handbooks to a T, they will not necessarily prepare the boys AND parents. Some are able, most are not. Ideally the troops have sent adults to the packs as "transition" people. Every den has a den chief. Reality is that the adults are doing all they can to keep the current troop running and the boys can't balance yet ANOTHER night of stuff to do in order to be den chief. I know some people reading this are like me, and just left their role as Webelos Leader. Please, sit down and make a list of what you would you would change about the last 2 years if you could go back in time, knowing what you know now. I plan on doing this and sending to the Cubmaster. Not an attack on the Cubmaster or Pack, but suggestions of what the up and coming Webelos Leaders should look out for.

As Rooster and the others have pointed out, if you don't get them to the door, it doesn't matter how great your program is, they will never see it. National needs to do more to let boys and parents know what Scouting can be for them. Dropout rate---how many kids dropout of sports? How many kids drop out of other activities? True you need to being running a good program but first we have to get people there. It amazes me the number of people who never get their kids to try scouting. People who are otherwise very interested in their kids education and development. My son's teacher is a great, energetic person with 3 boys from 7 to 14 years old. They've never tried scouting. I would think she would have seen the difference it makes for the boys at school, the pride of the boy who comes to school in uniform and writes a page about his weekend campout that normally slinks around in the shadows and can't find a pencil.

I think NJ has mentioned this before in some way. There are some things we should do because it is the right thing to do, not because it is the legal thing to do. I don't take it personally that National or many of you don't agree with me. I also stand by the rights of the men (some of this board) who have said that women should not be SM's or ASM's. They have agreed to also follow BSA policy even though this do not agree with that one. I don't think that makes them a liar or any less dedicated to the Scouting movement. Most have expressed that it is not they think women are lower class just that the don't feel it is the best thing. If you feel that banning gay leaders is the right thing, then good for you. If you are only going along with it because some men at the National level say so, then not so great. Not everything in this world is black and white. I have found very few things that are all or nothing situation. Why has scouting changed over the last 100 years? Because people have stood up and questioned what was being done. I'm sure some of the things questioned were never changed. You don't have to agree with me about my view of gays, but please don't condemn me for being part of BSA and not agreeing with this one policy. The great parts of BSA outweigh this for me. For some, it is not worth staying for. I thought long and hard about this. By the way, the Dale case had not gone to the Supreme Court when I signed my son up. True, I have the option to walk out at any time and to not sign back up each year. I can understand you wanting to quit if the policy changes, try to understand why I stay even with the current policy.

I was told a couple of years ago some advice from a dad of 14 year old twin Boy Scouts. First he said don't burn your son out on scouting. Second don't let them quit anything (Scouts, sports, music, etc.) without a REALLY good reason. Having to make sacrifices and balance out different things we do is part of life. None of us get to do everything we want, finding a balance is something many adults have a problem with, especially if they never had to deal with it as a kid. Compromise is a good option. If the boy was unhappy because he was being picked on, couldn't do the work (doubtful in scouts), just hated camping, was really, truly unhappy about everything in Scouting, I would let him quit. Because it interferes with your social life is not a good reason --- being a parent inteferes with my social life, but I don't quit.

My son is not yet 11 and he is socially "behind", so not always a good indicator of what is "cool". What I have seen in the past couple of months from him and a few other boy that they are liking or looking forward to: golf, camping, cooking at campouts, no baths at campouts, not having adults boss them around, playing silly scout games. My son is also playing baseball with the 11-12 year old team. I see some of those boys must be hitting puberty. They are even changing their running styles to be "cool". I swear, it is true. The coach has coached some of the boys for a few years, and he is so frustrated with them. It's like they have forgotten what the game is -- hormones ate away the brains? LOL

My son's troop is using the new scout patrols right now because they had sooo many Webelos cross over. They do have one existing scout they put in one of the new patrols -- I think to motivate him to complete First Class, give him some leadership opportunities and give him some ways to succeed and increase his self esteem (teaching the new scouts). He is older on paper but not in actions. My son wanted to be in another patrol with a friend he made on the first few troop visits. He was told he can when he reaches First Class. The other patrols are mixed age just because of the size of the troop. Currently about 45 boys, counting the new guys. Often troops combine into one for a campout, also being a mixture of ages and rank. As a parent, one of the benefits I see in Scouting for my son is for him to have contact with boys of different ages. It improves their social skills both as the youngest and the oldest in a group. I hear that it helps when they get to high school to see a familiar face in the crowd, when they see their patrol members in the hallways.

What our troop just experienced with a few parents was due a lot to lack of knowledge. The parents had been very active in Cub Scouting. The visited one troop meeting before joining. Then we all went on a campout. The troop had an influx of new scouts so went with the New Scout Patrol Method, having 2 New Scout Patrols. Once the boys reach First Class they can change patrols if they want. My son's patrol also included a 13 year old who has been with the troop for 1 year and is not advancing very quickly. He is the patrol leader. The troop guides really sat on the sidelines at the campout. The patrol leader has been in the troop long enough to know the rules and procedures. But he is struggling. The SM and ASM on the campout, kept an eye on him, pulling him aside when necessary (like when he was cussing). Ten kids in the patrol, 9 on their first or second Boy Scout campout. Chaos is a good way to describe much of the weekend, but not dangerous. Parents of 2 other boys were on the campout. They were not happy with some of what they saw. I was not happy with some of what I saw from the troop either. The others may have been upset with me as well because I told both of the boys that "my mom has it" is not an answer to "where is your handbook". The same with my son. I had to at one point tell him that "mom" was not on this campout. Cleanup Sunday morning started out bad and went downhill, drug on for hours even with many friendly reminders from myself and the ASM. When we realized things were getting worse than when they started, I threw up my hands and told the ASM I wasn't going back over there. He did some LOUD talking to get their attention. The boys did a few pushups. The troop guides were pulled in. The site got clean. The other parents took their boys and left before clean up was done. My chance to be brutally honest to the SM happened. I told him "I don't like some of what I've seen. I don't like the pushups and ....". He said he was willing to talk and change. He admitted the pushups were not being effective. I don't know what the other parents said to him. I have not seen them since, only heard that they didn't like A LOT of what they saw. They have gone to another troop that was having problems and has recently changed leadership (probably for the better). I know they didn't like the 13 year old being a Patrol Leader "with no experience". I tried to explain how they get experience. It was also made clear to us 1/2 way through the weekend, that we had as much authority as the SM to oversee anything we wanted to. Even though I was very upset on Saturday evening, after the "show down" on Sunday I felt much better. I went home feeling that I can approach the SM and he WILL listen as long as I am rational and calm. We haven't had a chance to talk much since then, but he did thank me for sticking in there and admitted they made some mistakes about the new scout patrols and were correcting those. The point of this long story is that much of what the other parents' frustrations I think come from lack of understanding the program. As I said early, it's a whole new concept for many. I have tried comparing it to school -- the teachers don't want to hear "I didn't do my homework because Mom didn't remind me." Yet, even that doesn't cover it all. The boy-led troop is chaos at many times. The boys make mistakes and so do the adults. I may do as Cubs is considering and see what I can do to help retain the nearly 18 new scouts this troop just signed up. Many parents never come into the troop meeting, they drop the kids at the door. They have other kids, other obligations, etc. I was thinking a "get to know you" picnic might be good, but this is such a busy time of year for most. Maybe a few "get to know you" events during troop meetings. The reason I saw more than one, is that if a parent can't come this week, maybe next week. Cubsrgr8, Another comment in your message will continue to come up for you -- keep them until they are 18. The next thing you may realize is the expectation that all boys will drop out by the time they are 15 or 16. That's a battle for down the road for me...let's start with keeping them that first year. Other threads have discussed what to do with new parents who are looking for a way to be involved (like ME). Maybe this is the way. I'm not sure working directly with the boys is the best place for me in the troop at this time, at least not ONLY working with the boys. Hmmm.....thinking of shooting an email to the SM and CC about some thoughts.

In this troop, the first night I visited the Scoutmaster sat and talked with me about how the troop works and answered any questions I had. A few weeks later, some of the Webelos and parents from our pack visited. The Boy Scouts put on a great program for the boys --- had them do fun patrol competitions like tent setup, a very low one-rope rope course. The SM spent over an hour talking to the parents. I know for me it took a long time for "boy led" to really sink in. It took a lot of reading BSA materials and forums like this. The other parents from our pack (have been in Scouting as long as my family) just weren't getting it. It was the first time they had heard it. I don't think anyone can explain in one hour how Boy Scouting works. I don't think anyone can understand it in one hour. Also, I don't have the magical answer of how to solve that. The parents were also given a document of about 4 pages that described the troop and how it is boy-led. Describing dues, activities, what Scouting can mean to your son, places for parents to volunteer, how patrols buy and cook their food, summer camp, etc. From what I hear, Girl Scouts have a hard time with retention at this age as well. I have talked to a couple of former Girl Scout leaders who said "we just didn't understand that stuff for Cadettes". Cadettes start around 7th grade. Girl Scouts is more seamless than the Cub to Boy transition in my opinion. Yet still many parents and leaders just can't make the jump to Cadettes -- it seems to have more focus on Girl Leadership and the badges are more complex and time consuming, requiring community service related to each one.

Regarding unit option --- I have heard on another bulletin board of an area that was having problems with this "new policy". I don't remember what part of the country the person is in. They said that many extended family members were registered volunteers with BSA. When the Dale decision came down in 2000, the "avowed" gays left. This was more on their part of wanting to comply than anyone telling them to leave. People in the unit and chartering org knew of their lifes and had never questioned it. It was just "oh, there is Billy's uncle and his friend". Now some of the units are suffering for lack of volunteers. A while back someone asked how many had known of an avowed gay applying for leadership, and I don't think anyone said they had run into this. As Sst3rd says units will always have "unofficial" options. This applies to a lot of things. Also, as a parent I have options. If I don't like the way someone looks or acts, I don't send my child off with them. It's not just about severe behavior --- sex, alcohol, drugs. Maybe the person just gives me the creeps, maybe I don't like the type of job he has, or the way he talks to people, or the way he combs his hair.

The troop my son just joined also expects about 50% will leave in the first year. Reason -- parents. Parents don't understand this is NOT Cub Scouts. They don't understand the program and don't think the boys can handle the challenges. The parents who were involved at all in Cub Scouting can't stand sitting by and NOT running the show. I've seen the ASM's have to go get parents from the "boys" part of the room and tell them to come sit with the adults. You do NOT have to sit by little Johnny all night. The boys don't want to keep attending if things get "hard". This troop is not one I will walk out on. I looked at a total of 3 troops. This was the best. It's not perfect, the SM being the first to tell me that. The main thing that makes up for that is that the adult leadership is open to new ideas and change. They are more than happy to hear my views and thoughts as a new parent. Especially since I'm willing to meet them half way and listen to them. The other troops I saw had a worse retention rate. I've heard of others that have a horrible retention rate. Why? Scoutmasters who run the troop as if it is bootcamp or the boys are the servants, adults who don't know how to behave as adults. Many Webelos never even cross over. I know most of mine didn't. Scouting was never a priority with their families.