sctmom

About Council sizes --- I doubt if our council has 10,000 members. Most of our council is very rural. The council covers 8 counties. I think I live in the most populated of those 8 counties and we have about 28,000 kids in K-12 grades. Some of the other counties may have 3,000 school age kids. Just in our county, if you figure half the kids are boys, we have about 14,000 to pull from. I don't think we even get 5% of the kids to join. Our county is part of a district with another county.

I heard we have 500 volunteers in our district. I was shocked the number is that high.

OGE,

I had to double check the author of your message. Didn't you say the troop has about 70 boys in it? Without using the patrol method?

Not trying to pick on you, but some questions.

I have a copy of the scoutmaster handbook. It says very clearly that the SPL is elected by the boys in the troop. Did you adults not read that? Or just think it wasn't necessary? Or think it didn't apply to you since all was working well? Why did it take going to Philmont to figure out what the handbook says?

Have these people looked at Campfire USA? It costs $20 per year to register. They don't have the same amount of structure as BSA. I've been looking into Campfire myself. I don't see the same amount of literature and resources as BSA. I talked briefly with the head guy at the local office, he seemed to be pushing the Campfire family program --- families meet once a month for potluck dinner. Sounds great but not a replacement for Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts (if done properly). If that's what they want then they should go for it, but it is going to cost them more.

Our pack has in the past few years raised enough popcorn money to pay for all recharter fees for all the boys and all adults. Plus those popcorn profits help the council.

They do not have to do all requirements under one section. The point is to get boys to try different things. The 10 electives for an arrow point can be 10 completely unrelated requirements.

They can earn one gold arrow point and as many silver arrow points as they have time for.

There are 115 electives to choose from in the Wolf book. So a boy could earn 1 gold and 10 silver arrows if he was busy.

Does that make sense?

Rooster, I live near Atlanta (which is not like the rest of the south in any way). I grew up in a very small rural town. Something I have discovered as an adult is that the small town people are not in favor of homosexuals, but will turn the other way about it as long as they are quiet. My mother used to get her hair cut by a man that everyone knew was gay. He was the only man who worked at the beauty salon instead of at the barber shop. Also, my mother has a cousin who is gay. I knew as a child that "Cousin John" was not like the other men, just didn't know why until I was older. No one talks about, they are real nice to these men and just pretend they are celibate. It's sorta funny in a way. Yet, if you ask my mother or anyone else they will tell you very quickly they don't want any gays around.

I'm not saying they are right or wrong or anything else, just pointing out one of the complexities of human beings. Now, a gay pride march in a small southern town would be a serious problem. Atlanta has a big gay pride weekend every June complete with obnoxious parade. My friend who is gay is so embarrased by that parade, because he isn't like that and knows it makes people upset. He's who he is and doesn't "flaunt" his life around in front of others.

Where I grew up, Atlanta was known as the place young gay men went to live and be waiters. No joke, any young single man who moved to Atlanta and became a waiter was considered "gay". Did seem to be true, who knows. Atlanta probably is more like Georgetown than it is like the south. So, if you do come south, don't come to the Atlanta area, we have Starbucks everywhere. Oh, and don't go to an area called Little Five Points. I don't think you would like it.

ALSO, I wasn't implying that conservatives are "narrow-minded" (even if I do think so often), just I'm in the south and know that it is typically conservative.

Really and truly laughing out loud at OGE's rendition of that song. OGE are you in need of a quiet weekend of camping(alone)?

By the way, in 1972 I was still in the single digits of age. I muscially "came of age" during disco....staying alive, staying alive.

Maybe I missed something, but why is everyone saying Yaworski doesn't believe in or like rules?

Don't know the song or the group....

"Jokers to the left of me, clowns to the right, back in the middle again."

OGE,

Yes, Savannah is the birthplace of Juliette Gordon Low. You can tour her house there.

She got the idea for Girl Scouts after visiting Lord Baden-Powell & his sister. His sister had founded Girl Guides in England.

It is also the setting for the true story of "Midnight in the Garden of Good & Evil". The main character in that story, Jim Williams is from my small hometown. As a child, he went to school with my uncles and said the kid charged other kids a penny to see his little movie projector (the Williams' had a little bit of money). He started collecting and selling antiques as a child in the 40's and 50's. He later moved to Savannah to continue his antique business and apparently lead a strange life style (not just gay, read the book).

I will tell you that Savannah does have it's strange people and gays. The few times I've been there, it seemed there was a large amount of people that it was hard to tell their gender.

ScoutParent writes:

"Sort of shows the depth of commitment these people feel to their cause. "

Most gays don't care about the BSA. I have a friend who is gay and says he doesn't know anyone of his gay friends who wants to be in BSA. He said this is not something they sit around and talk about --- they have jobs, houses, parents, etc. to take care of. It doesn't mean they want to be discriminated against, they just don't care to fight BSA, they have bigger dragons to slay.

The heterosexual population in the south is mainly conservatives who agree with the BSA policy. You aren't going to get the number of protesters you get in California or the Northeast.

I wish the article would have said how many they have had for this rally in Savannah in the past. Or have they ever even done this in Savannah?

"I think making them themselves made them taste better. "

You better believe it! I've seen my son eat things at campouts that he would never eat if I fixed it. If the toast is not the perfect golden brown at home, it's a big deal. Camping we ate burnt toast, no problem.

I tell parents that it is great to let them cook and you need to sit there and quietly eat what they fix you.

In Savannah Georgia! This isn't San Francisco. It's a small town. Does have a some what noticeable gay population, but still a small southern town. Not representative of the country about many things at all. So, I would say it doesn't tell you a whole lot that only 5 people showed up on a weekday for this "rally".

kwc, Get your wife to sign up as leader!

Cub Scouting is about family, this isn't the same as baseball, so you just can't compare the two.

Come on, you know you want to do it.

"The other thing at play here is that the Den Leader is a woman and I think the boys feel that they can run roughshod over her where they might not with a man. Possibly not. "

Could be. My son feels he can manipulate all the women teachers. He is now in middle school and has 3 male teachers --- life is different.

Yet, I've also seen men Den Leaders be run over.

"For me, it feels like a wasted hour, but the boys obviously are having a blast. I think it needs to be split up into two groups of six or seven. Lord help me, I've even considered offering to be a Den Leader for another group. "

Welcome to the club. Go now and get your uniform and books. hehehehe. That's why I became a leader. I got tired of sitting there watching my son and his friend fading away as the men tried to conduct den meetings by "winging it". That was with 10 boys, then we picked up a few more. I couldn't take it anymore, recommended a den split (they had been split a few years earlier), the men said "but we have no one to lead a second den". I raised my hand and said "ME". The rest is history.

Benny, Thanks. I was close. Pretty good since I was a mere child in 1975, but that was my big brother's favorite song for a while.

I think Bob White adds a lot to this forum but needs to understand that not all situations fit in a mold.

I also think Yaworksi adds to this forum. He says things to push buttons but he isn't against rules, he just questions the logic behind them. Is that bad? I don' think so.

OGE, That's "B-b-b-beenie". Blind by the Light --now there is a song. Making me want to pull out the albums and the turntable.

Song by "War"

Year --- 1973/74?

Kwc, I agree that the Webelos badge is the fitness and 2 from OTHER groups. The point is to have the boys exposed to various career & hobby possibilities.

Also, I think your pack is being very lenient on requirements. This hurts the boys more than help them. The boys know they haven't learned it. They don't have to be experts but they should learn something. If the requirement says "show" then each boy should "show".

Per the Guide to Safe Scouting:

Council-organized Family Camp

In most cases, the youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

***

Which sounds to me like if you can get a friend to take your child (regardless of age), then go for it. Some camps may require a written statement from you that the other person is your child's guardian for the weekend.

I don't have the Cub Scout Leader's book handy but I think what your Cubmaster said is correct. Your son cannot sleep in the tent with a non-related adult, you would want the boys to tent together.

Also from G2SS:

A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his mother or father. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult.

I agree that I don't think it is allowed IF the competition is about Scout Skills not covered in the Webelos program.

Knot tying is a Webelos activity. Simple first aid is a Webelos activity.

Most Webelos will not know how to follow a complicated compass course. They haven't learned wilderness survival. They haven't learned how to start a fire with no matches. They have not learned the skills that lead to First Class.

No one said Webelos should not camp with troops, they should just not do so at camporees. One den with one troop is what should happen.

Kittle, It does seem that most of the men don't plan for the meetings. The moms seem to be the ones who have the next 3 months or longer planned out. I saw the same thing with my ex-husband when he was a leader, see the same thing with the other male leaders. They just don't plan ahead. They don't act excited. I'm so pumped before a Cub Scout event, that afterwards it takes me a while to calm down and go to sleep.

The boys see the excitement or lack of excitement and follow it.

Yaworski, I do have to agree that they could update the handbook. It doesn't mean they have to redesign the whole thing, just update a few pages.

The BSA website is almost useless at times. I don't find it any more dependable than most other websites. Why don't they have a page that says "this year's requirement changes"? I have never found anything on the BSA website about how to contact National. They don't even tell you the name of the head guys.

A leader at our pack will tell you very quickly how much he likes his den of 12. The way he figures it, if he has 12 in the den, he will always have 8 show up for events because you can never have 100% attendance.

Looks like I have 7 in my den right now. I would like to see a couple of more join. But I don't want to go over 10, then some boys are pushed aside and quit.

It is frustrating when you only have 3 show up and you planned for 8. I experienced that before. You can't play many group games with 3.

ASM1,

Webelos SHOULD camp with the troop. But that is with THE troop not ALL the troops at one time. Parents for the Webelos are REQUIRED even when camping with the troop. At a camporee, the Boy Scouts are focused on their competition, meeting other troops, etc. They don't have the time to spend teaching the Webelos what they do. Look at the Webelos program, it does not teach the skills necessary for competition in a Boy Scout camporee.

So, there are safety issues and the issue of the Webelos being discouraged because they are not ready for the competition.

Bob White, I thought that is what Boy Scout camping was, just most around here do car-camping. The only difference around here between Cubs & Boys is the Boy Scouts cook for themselves and sleep in their own tents.

Yaworski, I agree. At least the new book doesn't say the Cub should not use the "Boy Scout AREA". Like sleeping in a Boy Scout tent requires special skills that a 10 year old does not possess.

Our council puts on a Webelos Camporee each spring. The boys got to learn a few skills and then be timed for the competition. These included knot tying, stretcher relay, compass course, string burning, and isotope (all but 1 is blindfolded and you remove the toxic bucket). There were 3 adults and 3 boys. We all had a great time! The Boy Scouts were working at many of the stations. They made sure the boys understood the skill before timing them. The adults had to go on the compass course, but we made the boys do the work. Also, an adult had to light the fire at the string burning. It was just enough to whet their appetite for Boy Scouting and lots of fun.

And they REALLY hate for you to try those skivvies on for size and comfort.

The water survival was taken out January of 2002. It does jive with what is in the 2002 Requirements book. The swimming merit badge also changed.

How many boys were NEVER making first class because of that water survival skill of using your pants as a flotation device? From what I hear it was holding up a lot and making A LOT of them drop out of scouting.

This is NOT new. (caught you again BobWhite...just kidding with you).

The 1997 Cub Scout Leader Book says "Webelos overnight camping at Boy Scout camporees and/or events is not an approved activity."

The part of this that I still don't understand is statements such as "Webelos Scouts should not experience Boy Scout-type camping on the overnights." What is "Boy Scout-type camping"? The 1997 Cub Leader Book even goes so far as to say " If you use a council camp, be sure the Webelos campsite is away from regular Boy Scout camping areas." Huh? I thought very few councils had CubWorlds and what difference does it make?

Back to the original post. As a Webelos leader I did not take my boys on these type camporees when offered in our district. They are not prepared to do Boy Scout skills. That is NOT part of Webelos. The Guide to Safe Scouting also stresses that Webelos should camp with troops when the Webelos are the focus of the troop. The troop isn't going to be focusing on the Webelos at a camporee.