ScoutLass

What were the boys' parents doing while all this was going on? We usually go over the rules once everyone has arrived--with both cubs, siblings and parents. We let the parents know that they need to help maintain the rules with their kids or the family may be asked to leave. We stress that this is for safety! Stick fights may get started a couple of times, but a parent or leader gets it stomped out quickly. Usually one parent has enough, puts their kid in a timeout, and the issue doesn't resurface because the rest of the boys are afraid of being shamed in front of their friends by getting in trouble now.

It is not helpful, courteous, or kind to exclude others based upon something that is really no one's business anyway. It is not reverent for those not have certain religious beliefs to exclude others based on sexuality. The 'clean' argument only applies to those who follow a religion that is morally against it, once again, not all scouts or scouters are of the same religion! I find minds that spend their time worrying about what others get up to in bed much less "clean" than that of the average homosexual man or woman.

It is a religious and moral argument that does not mirror all the religions and morals represented within the BSA. This is why local option is not just the right thing to do, but necessary in my opinion. I know of several temples that would love to charter a scout pack or troop as part of their youth program, but do not because of this issue.

They fixed it for the online version of the article

http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/1011/d-cse.html

I don't have my leader book handy right now, but if I remember correctly you can accept unsolicited donations.

I am pretty positive you can not ask for/solicit donations though.

Packsaddle, I'm going to guess your daughter spent time at Cat Tales and there weren't incontinent tigers wandering the street!

Well, let's push science out of the equation. Throughout history and throughout the world there has been many, many times and cultures where homosexuality was not a "sin" in the moral compass of the day. Of course, right or wrong, in the US we are expected to mold ourselves to the prevailing Christian moral compass or we "step on toes."

Human beings are primates, and homosexual and bisexual behavior has been observed in various other primates. In some species it seems acceptable, in others it leads to ostracism or expulsion.

Many animals seem to have a basic moral code, particularly other primates. Completely different than our moral code and much more simplistic, but expulsion, ostracism, punishments, etc are doled out in packs and colonies of other animals. (Watch the penguins at the zoo, particularly when there are some adolescent penguins present. If one starts playing too rough, or does something else that is frowned upon, he gets hustled into a corner for a "timeout" by the older penguins).

Personally, I am sick and tired of being told that things are wrong from a religious stand point that I don't share, particularly in a country where that is not supposed to happen. If the only argument anyone has to offer against something is a religious reason, whether it be my religion or someone else's, then it holds no weight with me and should not be forced upon the general population.

If the primary fear is a homosexual scout leader will take advantage of a boy, then I wonder why people aren't more worried about female scout leaders? Especially with all the high profile cases lately of female teachers and middle school-aged boys.

Wow, that's a shame. I look forward to our Pow-wow each year. Partially for the classes, exchange of ideas, and camaraderie, but also for the looks on new leaders faces. They show up in the morning nervous and a little weary, having just begun to hit their first stumbling blocks with the program. The go home at the end of the day laughing and excited about the program again. Ditching all that seems pretty short-sighted to me.

To expand on what Scoutnut says, what has worked well for us:

We pass out a "welcome" packet at the parent meeting (we have one before our first pack meeting of the year after roundup). One of the papers the parents are expected to turn in at the end of the meeting asks about special skills they have, hobbies and interests, and any capacity they would like to volunteer in. (we change it up from year to year to mirror our specific needs).

Copies go to the appropriate den(s) that the adult has boys in as well as to the CM. Once a week or two passes and we have a feel for the new parents, we start asking them for help. Unless the parent is pretty gung-ho or already coming to every den meeting, we usually start small. Den leader picks out a parent from their list and calls them a couple days before the meeting and asks them to help out with something small at the next den meeting. The parents who are always willing to help are good choices for volunteer roles and usually agree readily when asked face-to-face by the CM or DL.

By starting out asking for small tasks, we've found it eases the new adults into the pack at a pace they are comfortable with, so they don't feel put out by a bigger request down the line (like becoming a new DL or ADL). It's easy for a parent to say no to volunteering when they aren't emotionally invested in the pack yet, but it's harder once they know the boys and adults and want the pack to succeed like we do. It also gives the existing leadership a good feel for the adults who mesh well with the boys and existing leadership. We haven't had leader problems since we started doing this two years ago, so it's working out well.

Another benefit, is even the adults who will never enter into a volunteer position get into the habit of helping the pack "go." Chances are, if a dad has checked off woodworking as a favorite hobby on the form, he'll be more than willing to help the boys build birdhouses. That makes dad enjoy cub scouts more, which increases junior's chance of staying in the pack. My goal is to get every parent there and participating for at least one meeting or event a year. When we target their existing interests, they usually help out for more than one meeting/event.

Actually, I see a bigger problem here and I'm surprised no one else has mentioned it. An adult saying they do not want to deal with a kid, gossiping about it, etc is a much bigger offense than the boy and his mom trying to find a solution. The WDL does not deserve to be a DL. The adult leadership is there for the boys, the boys come first. Petty disagreements with parents, being "irked" by the behavior of a child, etc, cannot come between the DL and being there for the boys. In our pack, she would be asked to step down.

From what I've read, the boy isn't trying to shirk the work, the adult is the one that isn't following the spirit of scouting and has made it clear she doesn't want work with the boy. The boy could take the easy way out and wait until he's old enough for a troop, or he could finish putting in the work and realize the importance of finishing what you start, even when an adult, someone he should be able to trust, has let him down in a big way.

Religious emblems are handed out and requirements set by the governing body of the religion the boy is working to get the emblem for. The contact info for each emblem is listed on this page:

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Awards/ReligiousAwards/chart.aspx

For our religion (Buddhist) it required a lot of commitment and work from my son when compared to the fairly easy requirements of Cub Scout awards. My family and son did find the deepened understanding of his faith worth it, though. I am assuming they are all that way.

When our current group of leaders took over the pack, much the same thing was going on. It will kill your pack within a year if you can't get a handle on it. We're back and thriving, but we dropped down to just a few boys before we were able to recover.

No need to call anyone out, use program planning meetings and get the leaders a copy of the den resource guide for their rank. Also, try and hunt down some ADLs for each den, or at least a den chief. Schedule two mandatory planning meetings each year, at least. One right before the fall program year begins and one in Dec. or Jan. to plan for the next half of the year. We also have one in May to plan our summer program.

Leaders and CM map out their program for the next four or so months. With the new resource guide this is relatively painless for the DLs without time or imagination. The way we work it is the CM gets a copy and the DL gets a copy of their meeting plans, so that the CM and other leaders can work together to make sure everyone has all the supplies/people they need for each meeting. (Example: Den 1 is making catapults, Den 3 can offer some leftover catapult supplies they have on hand)

The other reason we do it this way is that our pack does not allow den meetings to be canceled, so whoever covers the meeting if a DL can't make it needs to know what was planned for the evening. We don't have enough volunteers yet for an ADL for each den, so we have two that work with whatever den needs an extra hand that night or cover when a DL can't make it.

Do you all meet at the CO, or at private homes? We meet at our CO, all on the same night, so we know if someone isn't pulling their weight and we can replace them post haste. Our den meetings are the first three Weds. of the month, with a pack meeting on the last Weds. These are not optional, this is when they are.

Monthly, We plan three den meetings (with one usually being a den field trip, but not always), 1 pack meeting, and at least 1 weekend pack activity from September through May. We have one den meeting and one pack activity from June through August.

Are your leaders trained? If not, get them trained ASAP. You're going to have to lay down the law. Work with your committee to get some DL expectations on paper. Let the DLs know if they cannot fulfill these they will need to step down. Line up a few potential replacements before doing so. With a full committee and 45 families, you should be able to find a few more DL volunteers.

Good luck!

Don't read too much into it! We don't touch the religious requirements for each rank in our pack. Those are to be worked on at home as the parents/guardians see fit. If the family handles religion at home, then that is where requirement 11d occurs. We're Buddhist, and where we currently live there isn't a temple for 200 miles in our particular sect. We had no trouble though having our son help tend the home shrine for a couple weeks to meet the requirement.

It wouldn't effect Eagle. Depending on how it's handled in your neck of the woods, he may be advised to get a religious reference from a family member or supply other references. I've seen it handled both ways for Eagle candidates and I am sure there are other ways. It doesn't have to be clergy, just someone that vouches for the scout's reverence (but don't quote me on that!) There are plenty of non-church going Eagle scouts out there!

Oh man, Stosh, I could ramble on generational differences all day. What have you done?

I'm a Gen Xer. I've done a lot of reading on the generations, and one thing I agree with is something quite a few historians have said, and that is that Gen X shares a lot of behaviors with the Silent Generation (those who grew up in the post-WWII years). The Boomers and Gen Y have a lot in common in my opinion as well.

Okay, broad generalizations follow, based purely on my own experiences and with the understanding that few people fit neatly into the boxes I am about to draw:

Working with parents and grandparents of all four these generations, I've seen that Boomers and Y-ers are more likely to assume that their little Johnny deserves ever award, regardless if he earned it or not. X-ers and Silent Gen-ers seem more prone to sit back and make Johnny earn it. X-ers are more hands on than Silent Gen-ers. When it comes to grandparents in scouting, Boomer grandparents are more apt to volunteer on the organization side than Silent Gen-ers, but this could be an age thing (Silent gen-ers are in their late 60s and above. They've put in their time).

Y-ers get bored more easily. Even if their boys are willing to give the program a chance, you have to keep the parents interested or they'll hustle Johnny to a new activity. X-ers shop around more for a better troop/pack and make Johnny at least stick it out for the year before pulling him. Boomers take charge of the program when they aren't happy, taking over leadership roles when needed but sometimes hovering too much and taking over too much. Silent Gen-ers are very free with advice about how things used to be, and when physically able tend to step forward and help shape the program themselves.

Lots of new cub parents are Y-ers right now, as they reached adulthood in the last 5 to 10 years. Gen X also has quite a few cub-age boys, but most are moving into troops now. Some Boomers are still parents, but overall both Boomers and Silent Gen-ers are grandparents.

We've been shopping troops lately, as my oldest will be crossing over soon. We've seen a lot of middle school troops, and a couple filled out all the way to 18. One thing I've noticed, is that even if the boys say it isn't high adventure they want, then why do all the troops I see with excited, all-ages scouts offer real trips and activities? The "middle school" troops Ive seen all go camping at the same two or three places each month, do the same old service projects every year, and overall look like something that anyone, kid or adult, would get bored with in no time flat. Many of these troops appear boy-run, but the inspiration isn't there.

Of the two troops we saw I would call successful, they were constantly doing something different. They camped in different places each month, had at least one further afield summer trip (one once a year, one every two years), pursued a variety of service projects, and overall it looked like one program year never mirrored another. On top of that, the troops were boy-led, with the boys coming up with these new ideas, which supplied new challenges such as coming up with and implementing fundraising ideas to pay for the more expensive trips or activities.

I think without supplying adventure and new things, it becomes pretty hard to supply challenges where older boys can test themselves. Too many of the troops I've seen recently are stuck in a rut and in desperate need of inspiration. It's easy for the adults to say the boys don't want adventure. It's the adults that have to use up vacation time, spend time away from their spouse, drive to the location. The boys may not be craving adventure exactly, they are craving the challenges of doing something new and outside their scope of experience.

My son is leaning toward one of the two adventure-based troops. He says he's scared of them, because he doesn't now how to do all that they do, but at the same time, he is drawn to them for the same reasons. It's his choice, but knowing that he dreams of learning to kayak, I'm sure whatever troop he joins will be getting some fresh inspiration from him if he can keep his excitement up long enough.

Do you have a den chief? Personally, with a den that size I'd split them into three "Webelos Patrols" of 5-ish boys each. You need at least another den leader or at the very least a good assistant leader and a good den chief. One adult or den chief per patrol with the den chief rotating out with other leaders as necessary. Two dens is with two leaders is better though, especially if ts two dens and each leader has a den chief with them. Approach local Scoutmasters and let them know you are searching for a good den chief.

Asking for help doesn't mean you're incapable, it means you are trying to do what's best for the boys.

Our Webelos den swelled from 4 boys to 12 this year after recruiting. We still haven't found another den leader so we are running two patrols with the den chief doing stuff with one and the leader with the other. They rotate back forth between patrols. We only have one room to work in, but we separate the two groups of boys as much as possible while they are working. Not perfect, but it's better than leaving just the leader to sink or swim.

We have the boys in the leader's den present the knots. The kids love it. It turns the tables so they are the ones handing out the awards, they always like being "on stage", and I think they feel a little proud of the adults for achieving something, just as much as we feel proud when they do.

This is what I am referring to:

Onevoice said: "I said in my first post in this thread that the largest problem facing scouting is the breakdown of the family. My issue with gays is that their example is just more fuel on the fire of bad family role models, and that they do not fit within the boundaries of the Oath."

OneVoice--How are gay people causing the breakdown of the family? I just don't see the logic there. I know many committed gay couples--more committed than many of the hetero couples I know--raising children and for all purposes modeling a good family life. How is that modeling poor family behavior?

Novicecubmaster said: "gay and morally straight are not incompatible in everybody's religion or system of beliefs."

Thank you for saying this. BSA is not a Christian organization, by their own literature they are a religious organization that is completely non-denominational and prescribes to no specific dogma. My religion does not practice bigotry against homosexuals. In fact, excluding someone due to sexual orientation is something that wouldn't be considered morally straight. Of course my religion also doesn't have a god or diety but BSA doesn't seem to mind as they publish info about it in every handbook where there is any sort of religious guide and it's part of every Scout's Own I've ever heard.

As for city bans, not a lot of effect here that I see as most COs are PTGs, churches and private organizations and clubs. I've heard some rumblings that there is some problems brewing in the school district with the PTG packs and troops, but I have no idea what the basis for those problems are or if they are related or not to the issues in this thread. A few stores I know of do not let us have popcorn booth sales in front of them because of the BSA stance on homosexuality. The stores do not want to be seen as supporting us.(This message has been edited by Scoutlass)

Ask the boys what they want. Take a few minutes to explain to the new scouts that it is possible to earn the awards, but much of it is up to them as it is no longer possible for them to do most of teh work in the den setting. Not every activity pin has to be earned with the den after all, they can work on them at home. Give them an outline of what pins they will be working on with the den that year and let them know what other ones they need if they want their Webelos rank and AOL. Make sure the parents are aware also. The boys that want the awards will work toward them and likely achieve them, and the boys that just want to hang out can just hang out.

Honestly, I don't think it should be up to the adults to decide the boys "can't" do it in this case. It's up to the boys. If you have a lot that joined that want to push toward Web rank or AOL, then it may just be worth it to set up another Webelos den for them.

If you decide for the boys that they can't catch up, they'll feel like you are holding them back. If you try to force them to catch up, they'll feel rushed and be unhappy. If they make the choice, they'll likely be satisfied with it.

You can purchase the precut, preholed immediate rec. fobs from Tandy leather. The discounted price for scout packs is $3 for three fobs. You then decorate them as you want. If you don't have a Tandy factory in your area, they take phone orders. The fob item # is 47100-11

Another good, free fundraiser is through a Borders book store if you have one in your area. They allow organizations to wrap gifts at Christmas time and you keep all the profits. They supply the table, scissors, wrapping paper, tape and ribbon. In our pack the parents do most of the wrapping with the boys pulling in the customers since cub age boys usually aren't great at wrapping presents.

You set this up through the store manager. In our area they draw up the wrapping schedule in late October, and advise organizations to get on the list two to three months before the holiday season. On the Borders website it advises to set it up four months ahead of time, so it looks like it varies on your area.

http://www.borders.com/online/store/BGIView_bgicommlocal

(info on the bottom of this web page)

That's just ridiculous excuse-making in my opinion. There could be a cultural reason, but it has nothing to do with camping. I have spent most of my life in Texas and New Mexico--two places with a very, very high Hispanic population. Camping and other outdoor pursuits are done just as regularly amongst Hispanics as in other American cultures. Long weekends (year around in those climates) were a time for going to the lake, the river or other favorite camping area amongst Hispanics.

The only thing that comes to mind is Scouting itself may not be popular amongst Hispanics, especially at the troop level. From what I observed growing up, most Hispanic cultures down south have very tight family units and camping is considered a family pursuit, not something you do with an organization that splits the teen boys from the parents during a campout. But seriously, the same things that appeal to an Hispanic boy are the same things that appeal to any American boy--adventure, Sports, video games.

Any clue how the numbers are calculated for the BSA? I poked around but didn't find anything. I'm wondering about accuracy. For example, our pack's CO is a Methodist church, but there is only one Methodist in our group of boys. The pack is about half and half, with half Christian and the other half from non-Christian faiths. If numbers are figured based on the CO, the numbers are way off (though I'm sure Christian membership is still the highest percentage in the US) Not trying to split hairs, I'm just genuinely curious about this.

You're absolutely right Scoutnut, I didn't even notice that last night when I scanned the app. I wonder why we were to told to do it otherwise? Maybe because it does make no sense to get one on one parent and not the other, who knows.

Actually, if you look at a youth application (I have one right here because we did our roundup tonight), the adult partner can have a different address than the youth--it's right there on the youth app. It does not specify anywhere that they have to share the same address and the app provides a line for the adult to have a different address. If you look at an adult app, it specifically says that the adult app is not for Tiger Adult Partners or Scout Parents, they must fill out the bottom section of the Youth App instead.

If dad is the Adult partner and not mom, then dad should have filled out the bottom part of the Youth App, and not mom.