Scouting Mom

"Actually that is incorrect. The boy is not a Boy Scout until AFTER the application and money has been sent to the council office and processed. I would often accept an application from a Webelos family prior to the scout crossing over and would hold it until after the scout crossed. Think of it as a "letter of intent". Once the Scout received the AoL I would send the application to the office."

Part of my job with the unit is accepting applications and turning them into council. Once an application is complete and accepted by the unit, the boy is covered by the insurance and is eligible to participate in scout events. If you are holding onto the applications for whatever reason and it is understood by the scout that you cannot or have not officially accept the application until he has his AOL, is 11, finished 5th grade or whatever, then your unit has not accepted the application...which is why I added that phrase to my original post. What if council doesn't process the application right away, what if a unit leader misplaces it? The boy isn't being penalized for that.

Besides having been told this before, I watched this policy in action at Cub Scout Day Camp last year. There were several boys who were registered for camp for whom council had not processed applications. This is the only time I know of where they actually cross referenced membership to participation in a Scouting event. They contacted the units the boy claimed to be a member of and tracked down the original applications which had either not been turned it because the scouts were new, had been misplaced by the unit or had been misplaced by the council, all the while giving the boy the benefit of the doubt, but they did backdate membership to the date it was originally turned in.

Overlooking the obvious absurdity of allowing a boy to earn a rank for a program before he is actually a part of the program....

Requirement number 10 for the Scout rank is...

"Participate in a Scoutmaster conference. Turn in your Boy Scout application and health history form signed by your parent or guardian, then participate in a Scoutmaster conference."

You have to turn in your application for the program THEN have the required conference. Once you turn in your application and the Boy Scout unit accepts it, you are no longer a Cub Scout and are no longer eligible to earn AOL. For many boys, they are going to Boy Scouts only after earning AOL because they aren't 11 years old yet. If they aren't 11 or finished 5th grade, and they haven't earned their AOL the SM isn't supposed to let them turn in an application therefore the SM cannot have the subsequent conference. If they are 11 or finished with 5th grade and they turn in an application and it is accepted by the unit then they have ended their opportunity to earn AOL then the SM can do the conference, but the boy can't go back and earn AOL after turning in the Boy Scout application, because they have ended their membership with the Cub Scout unit.

Vinegar has the same tenderizing effect on meat as alcohol does. Cider Vinegar is probably the closest to the flavor of beer, but there are all sorts of other vinegar flavors...wine vinegar is closest to red wine...Balsamic vinegar doesn't resemble any alcoholic beverage that I know of, but has a strong flavor that compliments red meats...not sure how it would work with corned beef, but it is fantastic with steak or venison.

There is such a thing as Beer Vinegar, but it's expensive and not readily available. I have also heard of using Ginger Ale.

That video is a good marketing tool.

My Webelos son has never been really excited about scouts...he's always done it because we told him he had to do some sort of extra curricular activity and he doesn't like sports. He's getting more into it now that he has the opportunity to make more decisions himself...more a Boy Scout mentality than a Cub Scout.

I showed that video to him a couple of months ago. He says, "COOL, I am SO gonna go to THAT!"

So, I said, "you know it's only for Boy Scouts, not Cub Scouts and it's not until 2010."

I could see the wheels turning in his head as he counted the time...(He crosses over in Spring 2009) "AWESOME! I'm going!"

Don't get me wrong...we didn't stop the free ride for this boy just for lack of participation. We did a lot to encourage them to continue. I don't want to go into their personal business here, but as I said, money wasn't going to fix their problems anymore, so it became pointless to give them the funds to continue scouting if that was no longer going to happen regardless of how much money we threw at the problem or how much desire the boy had to continue. We weren't going to keep paying his membership fees to keep him in the pack on paper on the off chance that one day things would get better and he'd be back...if he were working at home on his rank, maybe, but that wasn't the case. The boy wanted scouts, his parents wanted scouts, but no amount of money was going to overcome the wide variety of issues they were facing. Does this boy NEED scouts...absolutely! But it was beyond our power to get him back.

My point in my original post was...1. They have to want to be in scouts. 2. They have to be willing to work with us in some way, to help make it happen and 3. Money has to be the answer...

What if a parent is down on scouts...doesn't really want the boy there, doesn't WANT to pay for it, regardless of if they can afford it, won't let the boy go to meetings, even when he's offered a ride or if neither the boy or his family have a desire to "help the pack go" whatever that means to you and to them? Will the "Cub Scout grow" if he can't or won't participate? Is it a wise investment to fund them or would that money be better used to support another family who can and wants to participate and for whom money WILL solve the problem?

Our pack decides things like this on a case by case basis. Our CO pays for nothing...not one single dime. All of our money comes from our parents and fundraisers. Some years are leaner than others and some years we can afford to give all the boys much more in the way of benefits.

It is the general feeling of the current committee as well as most of the parents that I talk to, that if money is preventing participation by a scout, we (leaders and parents) need to do something about it. When I was collecting money for the last recharter, I had two different parents from two different dens come to me and ask if I knew of any family who needed financial help to recharter, since they were prepared to cover for them.

But one factor that comes into consideration is participation by the boy and his family. For example, we had one family in dire straits a few years ago. His parent became an ADL. The boy and his parents actively participated in most things. When it came to day camp, we told the family about camperships and also that day camp staff members got a boy in for free. The parents opted to work for it, knowing that lots of others who were much better off financially were doing the same.

When this family's situation changed, they stopped participating. Other parents offered to pick the boy up when his parents couldn't make it to meetings and events. The parent no longer fulfilled the ADL duties, despite encouragement from other leaders and offers of assistance. There was much more to their situation and money wasn't going to fix it. It eventually became pointless to cover their expenses...why pay to recharter a boy if he's not going to show up anyway?

"Your council shop should also have the right book."

This statement is true at the moment, however, when books are changed, the Scout shops will sell the old books until they run out...at least that is true of the Tiger Handbook, which was the last book to be updated in 2006, even though the changes in that handbook were major. They also don't have the current Boy Scout Handbooks, even though new requirements went into effect in January 2008.

As far as I know there is no comprehensive list of what the most recent editions are...for example, as I said, the last book updated was the Tiger in 2006, however, the Tiger book I have here says, "copyright 2001, 2007 printing" A 2006 printing of the same book may or may not be current, because books printed in early 2006 are old, but late 2006 are new and I don't THINK there is anything in the book noting the difference, except that the changes between them are major, putting Bobcat rank before Tiger instead of afterwards.

The last changes to the other programs were made in 2004. My Webelos, Wolf and Bear books have a 2003 copyright with print dates of 2004 (Wolf) 2005 (Bear) and 2006 (Webelos) and are all current.

As for a schedule of when new editions might come out...you are more likely to get an announcement about that on a forum like this one before you hear about it from any official source.

Our pack does it too. It has no logic or policy behind it. It is a tradition going back more than a generation, since whenever I object, the answer I get from the male leaders is, "That's how it was done when I was a kid."

Yes, it's adding to the requirements, yes I hate it BUT any display of good manners by a boy can be termed a "good deed" so it really becomes meaningless and I've learned to pick my battles.

Since the A&S program is supplemental, your pack can set some guidelines or policies related to it...for example, I've seen many sites that say each BL can only be earned once per rank, however, no where in official BSA literature does it say that. Your pack, however is free to make that policy. Our pack, and I'm learning many others, only award one BL of each type per boy...even Webelos, who often earn certain BLs for a second time don't actually get it physically awarded if they already have one.

Your pack is free to set the policy which will suit them and their budget. This is even discussed in the beginning of the A&S book

I would say that the fact that they want to come camping is a sign that they don't want to give up on Scouts. IMO, as long as they don't give up on Scouting, Scouting shouldn't give up on them. I know that there may be attendance or participation requirements at the Boy Scout level, but at Cub level, any way to keep them involved is good.

NOW, that said, if you require that parents chip in to cover the cost of camping, or if you use your fundraisers to cover that cost and they don't contribute in a financial sense, that could be a different story, but you need to have a consistent policy on that. For example, our pack uses pack dues to cover camping costs, so if they paid the dues, they are in.

ALSO, once you get this boy and a parent on the camping trip, it may be a good idea to take the parent aside and discuss with them the reasons for their lack of participation. See what can be done about it and point out what the boy needs to do to advance...of course he may be doing advancement requirements on his own, but his den leader needs to be informed so that the boy's name can be submitted for advancement. But I'd say that this camping trip is the perfect opportunity to re-recruit the boy and his family and get them more involved.

"Again, had you looked at the post you would have seen that my regerence was to page 22-1 and not 21-12."

Do you have the latest version of the Leader book? Because I do, and page 22-1 doesn't say anything about when a boy can or must move to Boy Scouts, however on page 22-4 it says: "Note: Although a Webelos Scout reaching age 11 or completing the 5th grade and at least 10 years old is eligible to become a Boy Scout, he may remain in the pack for six months after his 11th birthday or until he completes fifth grade, whichever is later. Webelos dens usually graduate together and form a new patrol in the troop. Grade-based Webelos dens should graduate in February of the fifth-grade year."

That is from the 2006 Printing of the Cub Scout Leader Book.

"Actually, the Webelos Activity Badges DO go on the advancement reports. This may be something new, but we had to go back and put them in for the older boys who earned them before the pack began keeping good records in Packmaster, and submit the report to council."

This may vary from council to council. Although there is a place in PackMaster for it, it can easily be overridden...in fact, if you put in Webelos or AOL without putting in the required badges for it, it will give you an error message with the option to ignore it...it doesn't let you ignore Bobcat, however. AND although there is a place in the online advancement for Webelos badges, our Council doesn't require they be reported (at least not yet).

Bob White Wrote: "Check with your Council's registrar. According to ours, 11 or out of the 5th grade means whichever comes first."

Shouldn't that be whichever comes second? Depending on when the school cut off date is for your area, there could be lots of boys turning 11 while in 5th grade. For example if the school system uses September 1st as the cut off, boys could turn 11 on Sept 2nd of their 5th grade year, but if they are following the traditional 18 month plan for Webelos, they won't earn their AOL until the following Spring. And then there is the issue of boys who were held back...

In my son's 4th grade Webelos den there were two boys who were held back in school prior to entering scouts. One was held back because repeated moves had him missing so much school in kindergarten and 1st grade, his parents held him back, the second boy has developmental special needs and was held back at the same time on the recommendation of the school system. Both boys will turn 11 by the end of 4th grade. The first boy elected to work extra hard and get his AOL by the time he was 10.5. He chose to move up to Boy Scouts while in the 4th grade, at age 10.5 after earning AOL.

Boy number 2, will probably earn his AOL by the end of 4th grade, he will be 11 years plus about 2 months. The rest of the boys in the den will only be waiting on their 6 month requirement, while working towards their 20 badges. Boy number 2 has the option of crossing over when he turns 11 in just a couple of weeks from now, when he earns his AOL probably by the end of April when the last required badges are completed, waiting for the rest of his den to crossover in Spring of his 5th grade year (after the rest of the boys pass the 6 month mark) or even waiting until he finishes 5th grade.

Boy One and Boy Two have the same choices. The fact that Boy 1 has an eye on Eagle already and Boy 2 has special needs affected which choice the boys and their parents have made but the choices are the same, they can get the AOL by 10.5, wait until they are 11 or wait until they are done with 5th grade or anywhere in between.

My son, because of when his birthday is, is one of the youngest boys in his den. He will not be 11 until the week he starts 6th grade. He could choose to move up when he gets his AOL, (about age 10.25, 6 months after finishing 4th grade) or when he finishes 5th grade (about age 10.75) or when he turns 11 and is just entering 6th grade. We will make that decision based on what is best for our son, but as parents, we have those choices.

As for the original poster's issue, it seems that the older brother must leave Cub Scouts once he is finished with the fifth grade, given that he is already 11, while the younger brother must wait another two months until he is eligible to earn AOL. The only exception I can see is that catch all called "special needs" If the older boy has a documented "special need" where it could be argued that moving up at the end of 5th grade isn't in his best interests, then MAYBE your Council will approve it, but I wouldn't count on it.

And it all begs the question of why a family would want their two boys who are OVER a year apart to advance together. It will always be a matter of either holding one back or pushing one too hard.

A few years ago, we were having a yearly planning meeting. Someone brought up the Order of the Arrow and the AOL ceremony. A new den leader, who happened to be an American Indian (the preferred term to them), objected. She is very sensitive to disrespectful "play-acting" and things of that sort.

She was spoiling for a fight. We assured her that the ceremony was done with the approval of American Indian tribes and that it was done in a respectful manner. She was still fuming, but given that this was several months before the event, she agreed to hold off on her objections until she could learn more. She went to her family and consulted with them. Her uncles are among the tribal leaders. Her uncles are also long-time Scouting volunteers.

This leader is now the first one to speak up in favor of the OA ceremony and has made it her goal to be accepted into OA.

Oops, I just went back and read the original post and realized I didn't address the original ideas...

Our council does let kids sign up for day camp individually...in fact, I've been told that any boy who is a scout anywhere in the country can sign up for a day camp anywhere in the country...eliminates the "I'm spending the summer with dad who lives 5 states away, so I can't do day camp" excuse. BUT, if they boys don't know anyone and will never see anyone from camp again come fall, I don't think it matters for retention.

Six Tigers is a lot for us to recruit before school lets out...I was amazed when we got 5 and we are a medium sized pack. Plus, my own kids HATE soccer, that plan would have them dropping out before they'd start...they like scouts because sports are optional and they can choose to do activities on their own.

Providing info to potential Tiger parents is a wonderful idea...group sessions for that purpose, I'm not so sure about...makes it too easy to slip out the back door. Our district does a 4-hours "open house" type recruiting, but you need to make sure the people working it know their stuff and that the literature provided is good. We had one event that was run by district types who had been around long enough that their sons had Eagle on the mind...they'd forgotten what being in Cub Scouts was like. It was a total failure. Other events with current Cub leaders are much more successful.

The last three years, we've had Tigers sign up before Fall.

Three years ago, there was no recruiting event, just some little brothers in our pack. Mom had reluctantly agreed to be den leader. It was ok, the boy stayed in, Mom didn't really do any DL things until Fall came and eventually they moved. A second early Tiger also moved over the summer, so never really became part of the pack. Not a very successful situation.

Two years ago, two Tigers came to us through a District recruiting event. They were invited to our graduation, where they were acknowledged as incoming Tigers. They were on the Cub Master's email list, so they got notice of all pack events, but there was no DL to communicate specifically to them. One boy never came to anything after the graduation, the second came to a couple of summer activities. They stayed on for a year and eventually dropped out.

Last year, I was tapped to be the Tiger DL for this year. I made a point of getting to any district recruiting event I could, so that I could personally meet any families that signed up for our pack. The ones I couldn't make, I made sure I got the contact info on my den by the end of that day. Our CC worked all of the Spring Tiger recruiting events and talked up day camp and the fact that we were going camping the day after school let out, when these boys would be full-fledged pack members. All but one of the boys went camping with the pack in June, but only my son went to day camp. All but that same one boy came to at least one summer event. That one boy's family was the only one I hadn't met when they signed up. Mom made it clear when I called her the next day that they didn't expect to be involved until fall, because of summer obligations...I kept them on my email list so they knew everything that was going on and they showed up at the first den meeting of the new school year...that boy was the first to earn his Tiger.

We already have a DL signed up for next year, and we are working on the year after that. (Gotta know who has little brothers). We are also going camping again as soon as school lets out...(the Tiger-DL-to-be really lobbied for that after seeing what a great time MY new Tigers had last June) My den is very successful. Of a total of 11 boys who signed up, only one dropped and that was because of family circumstances. The 5 original boys are the core of a tight group, that has been happy to welcome newcomers. I have a long "welcome" letter that I send to each new family that answers all the questions I can think of that I didn't know to ask when I was a new scout parent 4 years ago. I don't think I'm the world's greatest DL, but I try to make communication my number one priority.

I would say that the best thing to do is to get an experienced parent or leader to take the incoming Tigers under their wing and make a point of calling them/emailing them, etc. They also need to be an advocate for those new Tigers...like our Tiger-DL-to-be was when he lobbied to have our Spring camping trip late enough to include any potential Tigers. Much like I understand the old Tiger "Coach" program was supposed to work. Ideally, it'd be nice to have this person be DL, so if you can pick a parent with a younger son ready to join, that'd be good, but they could be just a place holder if necessary, until a more permanent DL can be chosen. Of course, they don't have to have a son in the den to be DL, but it's a great motivator.

Make sure the person will do the job. Make sure they have the best interests of the pack and the boys in mind and don't just agree because you need a name on the paper. Because, you don't NEED to have a name on the paper until you go to recharter again...what you need is someone to make sure the new Tigers don't fall through the cracks.

On your official Unit Roster it will list the number of months your unit has been chartered. You should get a copy of the roster from Council as part of your recharter packet each year, but if you use "internet advancement" you can access your unit roster through that site at anytime. Or you can ask your Scout Executive to obtain a copy for you.

Silent auctions are not games of chance.

You don't put up any money except to purchase the item in question. If an item, or group of items has a retail value of $50, you could choose to put your name down for let's say $10 and if you are the high bidder you get $50 worth of stuff for $10. There is the opportunity for someone to wander up and put their name down for $15 and in that case, they'd get the $50 worth of stuff for $15 and the $10 bidder has lost nothing. Plus, the $10 bidder can come back later and bid $20.

In the event someone ends up bidding $60 for items worth $50, that may be because they are an unwise consumer...much like buying an item at Target that happens to be on sale cheaper at Walmart. Or, such a bid could be made because even though the person knows the value of the product, they choose to make a donation to aid the unit.

The bidders all have the opportunity to make informed decisions about the price they choose to pay for the items. The only way there is any chance involved is if the items being bid on are concealed. If you are bidding on the unknown contents of a brown paper bag and those contents may be worth $10 or $100, then you are taking a chance.

Now, if someone wants to argue about whether a unit fund raising form needs to be filed, have at it.

I've read a couple of articles about this case,...the Boy Scout part wasn't mentioned at the top of the article, though. It was mentioned later along with him being an honor student, etc.

I'm not ready to buy into this boy's guilt just yet. If he killed the family, then went to hang out with friends in order to have an alibi, then the friends know something. The boy would have been acting strangely, nervous, would have said something odd...maybe he did and that's why he was arrested, but I'm reserving judgment.

"Raffles are legal in many parts of Pennsylvania..."

Raffles are legal in most states. But it's still against BSA rules.

"Ah.. but they did, as it appears in the King James version of the bible."

Oh, my....I'm speechless.

Part of what made Protestants "protesters" is that they didn't agree with what writings the Catholic Church chose to include in the Bible. They removed some things, and chose different versions of others. The King James version is a translation of that.

We took a group of Cub Scouts on a day trip to Jamboree 2005. We live about an hour away. They had a blast and were only able to participate in a small portion of the activities. We saw less than half of the grounds because we were only there one day.

Is it worth it? The boys will think so, although I can see the parents not wanting to put up the money. I'd make the boys fundraise for it.

"I really like the idea of 1 Pack per elementary school, not 1 pack from 3 schools."

Believe it or not, that is the encouragement of our school superintendent, not so much from the BSA end.

We draw from 2 schools.

Of the two schools, the one where we meet has half the number of children enrolled as the other school we draw from. We have about the same number of boys from each of the two schools. So it could be argued that if we had two packs, we'd be able to draw more from the bigger school. The idea of attending a meeting at your "home" school, rather than one down the street DOES have some appeal for people.

Unfortunately, the larger school doesn't have as much meeting space as the smaller school. The physical space of the school is dedicated to classrooms. They have a multipurpose room that serves as gym/cafeteria/auditorium. That is the only meeting room we might be able to use, assuming there are no sports events, school programs, PTA meetings or afterschool daycare. Unfortunately, they do have all those things, plus Girl Scouts. We used to meet there but were being kicked out for other activities for about half of the time.

We do have the support of that school. They let us recruit anytime we ask. And we make a point to ask, so they don't forget us. They called US to do a flag ceremony at an event and even on short notice, we made it happen. We make a point of being "their" pack. The former vice-principal was one of our biggest recruiters until she was transferred. We don't get anywhere near as much support from the school where we meet.

This one?

http://www.scoutingbsa.org/Programs/Awards/Adult_Leader_Awards/Distinguished_Commissioner_Award.html

The Trax programs are free, it's an Excel spreadsheet.

I'm a Tiger leader and I sign off on books during den meetings as much as possible...which I can do because I'm using the shared leadership and I'm not running the meetings. Next year, I'll either get the ADL to record the achievements or else take the books home. BUT I can tell you that when you hand out beads for the PTR badges (I know they've been recalled, but the new ones should be available now) and Little Johnny gets one and Little Timmy doesn't and you tell Timmy that it's because Dad didn't sign anything off in his book...

True story...one of my Tigers came to me and asked me if he was getting any beads because he saw all the others getting them...."I'm sorry, but there's nothing signed off in your book" He shot Dad a sad look...our next meeting was a pack meeting, when I wasn't gonna be signing off on books anyway, Dad came up to me with the handbook. There were a lot of things signed off then.