Rick_in_CA

Oh?  I see, it's just legalese fine print for Irving to CYA in case someone gets hurt on a scout outing that they can say they have pedigree first aid people on-site that can't do jack to help their kid in an emergency, but they have the paperwork done.  Am I close?

I think @@Stosh is right that this change (if it is real - it's still just a rumor for now), is mostly "safety theater".

Hi Rick,

I am on your side on your general philosophy. We have become a paranoid society. Look like I can take some input from you. Would you be kind to answer the followings:

1. Would you conduct your weekly scout troop  meetings, consisting of 6 years old brownies and cub scouts,  at a large park and ride location exclusively for gamblers who are strangers, come and go? This is a public park and not Casino park and ride location. It is being taken over by Casino Bus Operators to squeeze extra profits. Casinos wouldn't care because they are far-away and liability are not on them.

 

3. What are our rights? Just tell the parents and the younger scouts who run around to be more on alert every moment a stranger come by(which is very often), to deal with it?

 

2. What is your advise?  We can't move yet because we need time to find suitable location for 150 scouts.  Relocation disrupts many families travel routes. The unit was there to allow certain group of families to join scouting.

Would I hold a weekly cub pack meeting in a parking lot? No. Would I hold one in a city park next to a parking lot? Probably yes. Look, I think you have a legitimate beef about the parking congestion, it's the automatic "strangers are dangerous" that I am pushing back on.

Why do you have to be "more on alert every moment a stranger come by"? The idea that strangers are automatically threats is wrong (in fact there are studies that show that children that are willing to ask strangers for help (directions, etc.) are safer than kids that aren't). Your kids are in greater risk of harm from the drive to that park, then from those strangers passing by.

You choose to meet in a public space. Then don't complain about other members of the public also using that space unless their behavior is inappropriate. And simply being near children is not inappropriate behavior.

If the park and ride activities for the casinos is seriously disrupting the communities ability to use the park because of congestion and lack of parking, then complain to the city. Document it (lots of pictures of full parking lots, lines of buses waiting, etc.) and make your case. And in the meantime figure out how to deal with it because city action will come slowly if at all.

Oh, and definitely sell popcorn!

How do you get 'vandalize cars' from playing hide and seek?  Judgmental much?  Sense of humor lost at the dry-cleaners?

 

When I lived near a local night spot and folks would park in my yard to avoid paying parking fees, I developed several more disruptive ways of discouraging someone from parking in a given location.  Those methods will not be detailed on these pages for fear of inspiring the young and less responsible.  Something to do with the air inside tires slowly and quietly finding its way outside.

Oops. I misread your comment and thought you were advocating throwing water balloons at cars. So I apologize for saying you were suggesting vandalizing cars.

Have you approached the Casino?  They may not be aware of the problem.

 

If there's not another location that you can use, you may need to get aggressive.

 

1- Have the boys play hide and seek (with a buddy!) among their cars.  Be sure that the parking patrons know it.

2- A water balloon fight might dampen their enthusiasm for parking where the scouts play.  You do have some scouts with really bad aim, right?  Most effective during winter months, when the water freezes afterwards and makes the lot slippery.

3- Are they going to an Indian casino?  Loud cowboys and Indian games would carry on their theme.

 

If your can't convince them to move elsewhere, set up a table and really harass them: sell popcorn.

So your solution to this problem is to harass the bus riders and vandalize their cars??? How very scout like.

Plus, I don't get the safety issue here (the traffic and parking issues, those I get). So there are people you don't know using the same park as your kids. Get over it. If you don't want that, don't use a public space. The whole stranger = danger thing is way over blown.

We need to fight against the whole paranoia culture that sees danger for our children around every corner. It's hurting our kids! It's why scouts can't climb trees, use a little red wagon or go anywhere without an adult escort (I was just told by someone from the council that patrol hikes are going to require adult supervision unless all patrol members are 14 or older - not confirmed yet).

My neighbor used to take his son (who is 8) to the park to play catch or use the swings. He stopped because he got tired of all the paranoia around an adult male with a kid at the park on a week day. His son would get worried mothers asking him if he was alright and who was that man? They even called the police about a "strange man" at the park once because he was sitting on a bench watching his son play on the swings. That is absurd.

This is slightly off-topic relative to the last several posts but I found it interesting.     This is a quote from a (fictional) rabbi from the latest Millennium novel:

 

".... what matters is not that we believe in God.  God is not small-minded.  What matters is for us to understand that life is serious and rich.  We should appreciate it and also try to make the word a better place.  Whoever finds a balance between the two is close to God".

It was an ancient rabbi that supposedly said something like: "The Golden Rule is the whole of the Torah, the rest is just commentary". I always liked that one.

One of the down sides of all this hyper-competitive youth sports, is that kids are showing up with sports injuries that used to only show up in professional athletes. We have child athletes needing knee and elbow surgery. There is growing concern within the medical community about the detrimental health effects of overtraining and the rise of overuse injuries in youth sports. Basically, a lot of this stuff is unhealthy.

Welcome!

So how we fold the flag doesn't matter.  OK.  You want some negative comments?  Fold the flag into a rectangle, or don't bother folding it at all at your next flag-lowering assembly.  Or how about folding it in a triangle with the union folded inside.  Even though you might know you're absolutely right doesn't make it acceptable to the vast majority of people.  Most would find the action disrespectful.  I would, even though it was done in earnest.  The flag code only goes so far.  Your version of respect may differ from mine.     

So if I understand you, if you attended a flag ceremony where it was folded into a rectangle, you would be offended? Even if it was done in earnest?

I was taught a nice routine at our IOLS.  Our Scoutmaster/instructor takes one or more US flags and we cut them into strips and a union.  After the fun skits and songs,  he passes out a fragment, a piece of "colorful rag" to each participant around the campfire, and we talk about where this flag may have flown: over a school or carwash or library or private home, over America. He then proceeds to tell his story , about his immigrant grandfather and eagerly "American" father and mother, how they lived and served in the wars and in their community.  He then often connects this with some other short stories about "newcomers" to our shores. He then tosses his fragment into the fire and invites anyone else who might have a story to tell about our country to let us hear it.

If you are burning a flag, I personally don't like seeing it cut up before hand. But @@SSScout's way is rather nice.

For synthetic flags, cutting them up (and not burning) is actually the recommended BSA way for retiring those flags. The parts are then taken to a flag recycler.

One reason to cut up a flag before burning however, is that some towns have outlawed flag burning (with no exceptions for retirement). Once a flag is cut up, it isn't a flag anymore so the parts can be burned.

 

I might respect a person who is an atheist but I don't respect atheism. In other words, I might respect someone who lacks belief but I would not respect his lack of belief.

 

This is exactly how a scout acts using the Scout Oath and Law. This is also why the suggestion that it is unscout-like to turn away people with certain behaviors and beliefs doesn't hold water. Scout-like actions are respecting others without having to respect their beliefs or actions.

 

Barry

 

Even though the scout law says the opposite of this?

A Scout is Reverent.

      A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

(Bold emphases is mine)

So it wasn't a gender issue that put the BSA in a spiral downward.  It was National's rejection of its own successful programming from decades past.

 

Gender is not the cause nor the solution for the BSA's woes.   Sedentary programming, rejection of successful methods from the past, and emphasis on sideline stuff like STEM and soccer are the heart of it.

While BSA policies do have an impact on numbers, I believe the biggest factors driving the decline in BSA membership over the decades are all external too the BSA. In other words, it didn't matter what the BSA did, the numbers would still be lower than they were in the 70s. All the BSA could have done was slow the decline.

Some of the external issues causing the decline:

People have less leisure time. From working more hours (the average full time worker in the US now works a 47 hour week), to more demands from the family (driving the kids everywhere, coordinating two full time work schedules, etc), there is less time to spend on things like scouting. Statistics show that while the average amount of vacation days earned by full time workers has not gone down, the average number of vacation days actually used by full time workers has.

Life is more competitive. In our society, there is a perception that we are all competing for a slice of an ever shrinking pie. As a result, the perceived stakes are higher now. College is more important than ever before, but it is also more expensive. This generation of parents are the first where the assumption that their kids will automatically have it better than them no longer holds (that is what polls show is the perception, and there is some data backing them up). Participation in activities like science clubs, robot leagues and other extracurricular activities are no longer driven by just interest, but they are now also perceived to be important resume builders (which means less time for "less prestigious" activities). All this means most children's activities get put through the "how will this look on a collage or job application" filter (hence the BSA's emphasis on selling Eagle).

Our society is much more fearful. The fact that we even have the term "free range parenting" to describe what most of us would call "normal parenting" is a reflection of this. Many parents today are often looking for guarantees of perfect safety for their kids, in a world that they perceive to be full of threats. Strangers are looked on with suspicion, letting a kid walk down the street alone generates calls to the police, etc. So we have background checks, fingerprinting, YPT rules, tour plans, and general paranoia, all of which create additional burdens on those that wish to participate (even if some of these rules are good ones, it's still hoops that volunteers need to jump through, and some of these hoops cost money). Plus, many traditional scouting skills and activities are now perceived as "dangerous" or "risky" (knives, fire, guns, camping, being in the woods, mowing the lawn, using a little red wagon, etc.), which reduces the appeal (for parents at least). We complain about kids sitting home playing video games, but for many parents that is just where they want them - inside and safe.

Very few families can afford to have a stay at home parent today. When I was a child, I had a stay at home mom, as did most of my friends. Families today still need to go grocery shopping, do laundry, buy shoes and school supplies, cook dinner, etc. The stay at home parent accomplish many of these tasks during normal working hours (often while also looking after the kids) leaving the evenings and weekends as free time. Now these tasks have to be done outside of the normal work day, which reduces the free time available for other activities. This is a factor that I think a lot of people overlook.

I'm sure people can articulate other reasons as well. All of the above have contributed too the decline of scouting (and many other activities), and none are within the control of the BSA. Yes a better BSA would be a more successful one, but the decline in numbers from the 70s peak was inevitable, no matter what the BSA did.

Our friend who writes the Scoutmaster's Blog has weighed in on God and related issues within Scouting.  The comments on FB have included some serious antipathy towards his comments.  Certainly seems to approach the subject with intelligence and common sense I feel.  Take a look.

 

http://scoutmastercg.com/a-scouts-duty-to-god/

A well thought-out post. I agree with your friend. I have long believed that the BSA should either modify or loose the DRP.

On of the big problems with the DRP that is missed by the post, is that new members are asked to subscribe too the DRP on the application, but are only shown an excerpt from it, not the whole thing. This bait and switch is unfair.

From the application:

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership.

Which is much more non-sectarian then the real DRP.

I think this year I am going to get my Webelos to raise there own money to go on a high adventure camping trip buy doing a pink flamingos fundraiser.  My big issue with fund raisers is the low profit margin. 

 

if you want more info on a pink flamingos fundraiser please follow this link http://www.flamingofundraising.com/

The pink flamingos fundraiser is an interesting idea. I'm not sure it would get council approval though (I guess you can argue it is selling a service). Do you know anyone that has done it?

Sure they have TV and radio ads.  But it generally is up to each council to run these ads.  The ad spots would come out of the council's budget.  I have seen a few over the years but they tend to be at less popular times and channels.

 

See some ads here: http://www.scouting.org/Home/Marketing/Recruiting_Build/PSAs_Eng.aspx

Interesting. Those are decent. I've never seen them anywhere in my local area. Not as good as the South African one, but not too bad.

I agree, very well done.

I also agree we probably wouldn't see anything like that here. Some marketing pinhead would probably argue that it's "too challenging" for "American audiences" (no background music? How are they supposed to know how too feel? People will be confused by the switch from child to adult. etc.).

What a great speech, I hadn't seen it before. Thanks for sharing it!

If BSA actually wants to push for STEM Scouts through public schools, it inevitably means creating a form of Scouting that drops Duty to God from the Oath and Reverence from the Law along with the related membership requirements. Even still it will not sell because you are charging membership fees for something where the school must still provide all the facilities, equipment, and leadership/supervision. However, you will have compromised the idea that to be a Scout includes acknowledging a personal religious duty, which means that the atheists win the next round of lawsuits against BSA over membership, because BSA will have admitted you can be a perfectly good Scout without doing a duty to God. So, STEM Scouts is the back-door for dropping both of the remaining controversial "G's".

This is something that the BSA isn't being clear on (I'm just shocked!). My understanding is the STEM Scouts is under the Learning for Life umbrella, and is fully inclusive. Yet they open with the scout oath and law. So I agree this might be a (perhaps unintentional) back-door to dropping the remaining two G's.

I don't agree that allowing atheists and agnostics would mean having to drop Duty to God and Reverent from the Scout Oath and Law. But that is a discussion for another thread.

I don't think anyone is saying that traditional Scouting isn't important and needs to be shunted off to history.  What National is trying to do is to broaden the scope to be attractive to youth that aren't interested in the traditional Scouting program.  Despite the naysayers that just hate National and Councils and think they're nothing but a bunch of money-grubbing imcompetants, the BSA understands the trends and is trying to remain viable - if STEM Scouts helps bring donations and memberships numbers up to help save camps, the I'm all for it.

...

There are fewer people camping in the parks, and those that are camping are demanding much more modern amenities - not just flush toilets and shower houses - but individual water and electricity service at tent sites.

I agree with you. Society is changing, and people don't look at the outdoors the same way. I grew up tent camping (and sometimes just under the stars when the weather was good), it's what my family did for vacation.

But what I hear from a lot of parents today is fear about the outdoors. What about spiders and other bugs? Sleep without a tent? What about the critters??? One of the reasons for the growth in RV sales is they are little portable fortresses complete with locks on the doors and windows.

This is what Be Prepared is all about. A great story!

I like this rule.

I always wear my neckerchief. As do most of the  (male) adults in our units (though not all - and most of the women don't. Not sure why).

Welcome @@Pselb!

What flag ceremony script does your unit use?

In our cub pack, we try not to use an actual script. In the past the cubs would read the script with no real understanding of the what the words meant (like giving the command "post the colors" after the colors were posted). So instead of giving them a script, we tell them which words they choose to use doesn't matter as long as everyone understands what you mean, and it's done with respect. That way they focus on the sequence of events instead of specific words (you want everyone to stand up, how do you do that? OK, what is supposed to happen next?). We want them to learn the actual sequence of the flag ceremony, not a bunch of magic words they don't really understand (how many cubs have any idea what the words "retreat" and "dismissed" mean?).

Correct. But one would think that if a district exec gets p.o.'d about a patrol going to play laser tag (on their own time and not in uniform) he'd be more upset about a unit-sponsored event where violent video games that are expressly created for killing human analogs are being played.

 

This is the same guy that did not like our archery range that had 3D animal targets on it...said it simulated hunting. Yet he has no problem with Billy taking out Tommy with a head shot playing GTA?

 

We are way off topic. My apologies.

Sounds like someone that is more interested in the letter of the rules, rather than the spirit of the rules.

So, BSA is in favor of individual Scout accounts, but there may be some potential issues with the IRS, depending on interpretation.

 

Reading between the lines, it sounds like if the majority of the funds went into the Troop general account, but some portion was used as an incentive credited towards Scouts individually for their Scouting activities you would be in the clear. Probably.

The way I understand the issues with individual scout accounts, if how much a scout raises determines how much money goes into their account, then you have a problem (it's fraud). If other criteria is used, such that a scout that doesn't do any fundraising can "earn" just as much money in his account as the best fund raiser in the troop, then you might be OK (or might not).

I seems to me that ISAs are basically a bad idea and should be dumped.

Seems there is always something to jab the Scouts about....

 

http://campusreform.org/?ID=6722

Unfortunately I'm not surprised. As others have noted, the culture on many university campuses is getting ridiculous. I ran across an interesting article the other day that calls this movement Vindictive Protectiveness instead of political correctness (as they have different motivations). I think I like that term.

How Trigger Warnings Are Hurting Mental Health on Campus.