Region 7 Voyageur

When I leave a wilderness location after a Scouting function I strive to leave no trace. Whatever trace I do leave is the same regardless of the jacket that I wear.

Sometimes young men do not see things as well as adults. Please allow me to tell my personal story.

I became a Boy Scout in September 1970. At that time you had to be 11 years old to join Boy Scouts. During that fall two things happened that affected my scouting career. At the first court of honor I attended a young man became the first Eagle Scout from our troop. He was a senior in high school and was a few months from turning 18. In November of that year my father died at the age of 39 after years of alcohol abuse.

I made achieving the rank of Eagle my main goal in life. I figured I had until I was a senior in high school to achieve that goal. I became a First Class Scout in one year and a Star Scout in the second year.

In 1972 BSA changed the game. The new scouting program was introduced that seemed to turn everything upside down. We were no longer Boy Scouts but were now Scouts. There were no longer ranks but now they were called progress awards. The requirements changed for every award. The required merit badges for Eagle had been changed. I had already earned Camping, Cooking, and Nature merit badges as Eagle required merit badges but under the new requirements these were no longer Eagle required merit badges. New required merit badges included Citizenship in the World, Communications, and Personal Management. There were now 24 merit badges required for Eagle.

When the new system, as it was called, was explained to the Scouts in our troop we were told that if we wanted to earn Eagle under the old system we had until December 31, 1973 to complete the requirements under the old requirements. This was the grace period that National BSA had granted for the transition.

To me the concept of having to earn additional merit badges and have some of my already earned required merit badges no longer count as required was too much. I now had a deadline of the end of 1973 to achieve my goal of Eagle.

I made it. I finished all of the requirements with 20 days to spare and then had my board of review in January 1974. I was 14 years and 4 months old. To me that December 31, 1973 deadline was every much as big as the age of 18 deadline that many boys face when working toward Eagle.

The point of my personal story is that many young men need something that pushes a sense of urgency to achieving a goal. They often feel that time is endless and that the age of 18 is so far off in the future that it will never arrive.

Eamonn, maybe your son is looking for encouragement and a push from his father. We all know that some parents can push their children to Eagle, but sometimes young men are looking for appreciation from their fathers and they withhold doing what their fathers want to see what the reaction will be. Give him a loving nudge.

Dave

If you cant kick a dead horse when it is down, when can you kick it?

This is my opinion, a Scout that is very active, has set personal goals, and works consistently at advancing will achieve the Eagle rank when he is 14 years old. This is good! A Scout may then look to earning Eagle Palms, or joining a Venturing Crew and working towards the Silver Award and the Ranger Award. A Scout may also have an interest in working towards the Quartermaster Award in a Sea Scout Ship.

Scouts that I have observed that have earned Eagle at 17+ years of age have usually had long periods of inactivity in advancement and participation in the troop. Many are procrastinators that were pushed in the end by their parents to finish their Eagle.

If you believe that a Scout has not earned the Eagle rank then the fault lies with those that have signed off along the way. If a requirement, merit badge, or service project was signed off with out meeting the standards then shame on the person that signed off.

It seems to me that most people that have an issue with Scouts earning Eagle before the age of 16 are either: people who earned eagle at the age of 17, or parents of Scouts that earned Eagle at the age of 17. In my opinion they cannot fathom someone earning the rank at a younger age than they or their son did.

Was Theodore Roosevelt too young to be President of the United States?

(This message has been edited by Region 7 Voyageur)

SFmike,

I am sorry to hear that your son has passed away.

I have doubts about the veracity of this story. I suspect that this is a story made up to spur silly arguments between us about subjects that have already been argued.

Lets see:

16 year old Second Class ScoutWhat has he been doing in his first four troops?

Adult who needs to get trained before they can be registered?

What happened to the existing Assistant Patrol Leader?

How does a Scout that only made it to Second Class then earn seven merit badges at summer camp while sleeping in his tent?

This Scout seems to have impressed the other members of the troop enough to be elected SPL.

This Scout went from Second Class to Eagle in less than 24 months?

A climbing course on a National Guard Base being used by Scouts?

Is the paper eagle now an adult leader or does the climbing story take place before he turns 18?

Webelos climbing? Has our paper eagle read G2SS?

Five story obstacle? Qualified supervision? Age appropriate activity?

I have noticed several posts by new posters that spark controversy between us while the original poster stays out of the conversation. Hmmmm?

Oh No! Scoutstuff.org says that there is a "Class A" uniform.

https://scoutnet.scouting.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?ctlg=05NDC&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3&item=BSSSS

Cut and paste this address into your browser and see the uniform shirt for the "Class A" uniform.(This message has been edited by Region 7 Voyageur)

A Scout may choose any of the 15 required merit badges in the 12 categories to fulfill requirement

I agree with the idea that it is always better to file a local tour permit than not to. The council that I serve in has stated in writing that trips within the council do not require a permit. It appears that this is in compliance with the statement "Local councils set re-quirements(sp) for travel fewer than 500 miles one-way." that is found on this page at national's web site.

http://www.scouting.org/awards/10-278/index.html

My son is 13 and he is registered to go to the Jamboree this year. I believe that the Scout in question in this thread is eligible to go this year, but it is probably too late to get registered now.(This message has been edited by Region 7 Voyageur)

In our local news there has been much talk about an Eagle Scout from Naperville that was killed in Iraq. Here is a link to CBS web-site with more info. Our troop has a campout planned to the forest preserve where the bridge is located next month. It will make a good hike.

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/local_story_115171458.html

Consul the young Life Scouts on learning leadership, responsibility, and service. Help them to really learn from working on merit badges, their position of responsibility, and their leadership project. In no way hold them back.

It seems that parents of Eagle Scouts that finished just short of their 18th birthday are more inclined to think that becoming Eagle at any younger age is too young. Though this may not be backed by actual fact I have listened to many parents that think this way.

I have never heard this thing about affecting the high school transcript.

Bob White, thank you for the quick response. I too do not think that it would be the best method. I have heard of Charters that have done this and I wondered about how if fit in the BSA policy.

Does any one know (Bob White?) if a Charter Organization may require that the unit(s) that they charter wear the complete uniform? In other words even though BSA does not require a uniform can a Charter Organization require that all registered members in their units wear the complete and correct uniform?(This message has been edited by Region 7 Voyageur)

Well, it looks as though I made an assumption that was incorrect.

Saying the word may is not the same as saying may or may not. The requirements book says that work on an Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project may count towards the requirement for Star or Life ranks. How can a Scoutmaster then say that these hours may not count? The reason for Scoutmaster approval of service hours is to make sure that what a scout intends to do is truly service to the community. I have heard of some off the wall things that some scouts have thought should count as service.

As I stated in my previous post, a Scoutmaster (along with the Committee Chair, and the District) must give approval to an Eagle Project proposal before it may proceed. If the Scoutmaster has approved the project as suitable for giving service to the community, and the requirements book says that hours worked by a scout on another scouts Eagle Project may count towards Star of Life rank, then how can a Scoutmaster say that these hours may not count?

Page 20 of "Boy Scout Requirements 2005" book covers this issue. On that page it states "For Star and Life ranks, a Scout must perform six hours of service to others. This may be done as an individual project or as a member of a patrol or troop project. Star and Life serevice projects may be approved for Scouts assisting on Eagle service projects. The Scoutmaster must approve the project before it is started."

My opinion is that service hours performed while working on another Scout's Eagle project, which must have already been approved by the Scoutmaster as part of its approval process, would count towards the requirements for Star or Life rank.

(This message has been edited by Region 7 Voyageur)

Sure there are many in Scouting that use the term Class A or Class B when referring to uniforms. The problem is that these terms mean different things to different people. When someone says Class B are they referring to the same uniform items as the activity uniform as described in the Insignia Guide? Or, are they referring to someone wearing some form of Scouting related T-shirt with any pants or shorts or socks or hat?

Mike Walton is considered an unofficial authority by many on the Boy Scout Uniform. He talks of a class A, B, C, and D uniform. His definition of a Class B uniform is what most would call the Field Uniform or a Class A uniform.

Please check out this site:

http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/abcd.htm

The Guide to Safe Scouting requires a "Certified Instructor".

The NRA offers training for "Range Safety Officers" and "Certified Instructors". I have completed both courses. The certified rifle instructor course that I took was a Friday night through Sunday noon class. The range safety officer class was an all day Saturday affair. I do not believe that being a range safety officer qualifies you as a certified instructor in accordance with the Guide to Safe Scouting.(This message has been edited by Region 7 Voyageur)

Last Sunday I was driving home from a troop outing listening to the radio and the news about the passing of John Paul II. My son said that all he really knew of the man was that he was old, had Parkinsons disease, was hunch over and mumbled. What a different image he has of the man than I did. I think of a vibrant energetic leader who seemed very approachable and loving. I was not a Roman Catholic when John Paul II was elected but I became one in the 1980s. The living faith and warmth that I saw in him (and John Paul I) seemed so much different to me than what I saw in Pope Paul VI. My thoughts of Pope Paul may have been a product of the anti-catholic bias that I grew up with. I admired John Paul II for being true to what he believed in but always keeping dialogue with those he disagreed or had differences with. Many have wished for more reforms in the church but much of what he did would have been unthinkable to the church fifty years ago. What other pope has had so much interaction with the Orthodox Church, the Lutherans, the Church of England, Jews and Muslims? Though many said that is was too little too late; apologizing for past Catholic Church mistakes was a very difficult and honorable thing for a pope to do.

Lynda J mentions Another problem with adults in housing projects is most probably wouldn't pass the background checks. I hate to say that but in one of the project housing developments here criminal history is at about 95%..

I was told (maybe incorrectly) that the background check is for the information of the charter organization. The charter org decides if anything in it disqualifies an adult from serving as a leader.

Does anyone know if this is true?

I am all for young scouts having motivation and working hard toward earning Eagle at an early age. If they complete the requirements they qualify as Eagles.

However it sounds from your posting that quite a bit of thought and possibly planning has gone into this potential project before your son is a Life Scout. It sounds like contact has been made with a benefactor organization and details and costs have been figured already. These things are part of planning for the project. The Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project is to be planned and carried out while a scout is of the Life rank.

Be careful.

The following is just my opinion:

I have no problem with my scout pants and scout shorts. I do not like the looks of the current cargo pants and shorts. I prefer the plain pocketed trousers and shorts. Last year national supply was having a sale on the non-cargo pants and shorts. I think that they were trying to clear their inventory on discontinued items. I stocked up. I have a pair of pants that I bought in 1998 and have worn weekly since then. The material wears like iron! I just picked two pairs of scout pants (non-cargo) from e-bay for $20 each. My pants fit even better when I lost ten pounds. The poly-wool pants are very nice in quality. My son has a pair that he saves for courts of honor and uniform inspections. (at other times he wears regular scout pants) The poly-wool pants have a different shade of green than the other scout pants and at one uniform inspection my son was docked points and told that he did not have scout pants on. He offered to unzip and show the label on the inside.

mhager,

You state that you were awarded the Eagle Rank in 1986. On your Eagle application you signed a statement saying that everything on the application is true and correct. With that application you had to show evidence of living the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. The Scout Oath says that you will do your best to do your duty to God. The Scout Law says that a Scout is Reverent. Were you truthful when you signed your Eagle application? Or, have you become an atheist since you were awarded the Eagle rank?

If you were an atheist as a youth then you lied on your Eagle application. If you have become an atheist as an adult then it is you that has changed and turned your back on Scouting.

NYScoutmaster

If I understand your post correctly you wear the Eagle rank patch on your assistant scoutmaster uniform, and your reason is because you earned it?

Do you wear your Bobcat patch and any Webelos activity pins too?

Trevorum's post brings another question to my mind.

If a scout earned the UU religious award before 1998 may they still wear the award today or a knot to represent it?(This message has been edited by Region 7 Voyageur)