Beavah

Yah, hmmm...

Like da rest, I would encourage yeh not to go this way, @@Fehler.   These things always sound good, sorta like zero tolerance policies and mandatory minimum sentences, eh?   In application, all they do is cause grief and injustice.  They also increase your liability.   Don't try to turn Scouting into a legal system. 

Da reality is that responding to bullying always depends on the ability of adults to relate to and be alert to kids, and to have vision and guts.   Writin' a "policy" doesn't help the adults have guts to respond to bullying, and policy-responses make it harder for adults to relate to kids, eh?  No lad ever decided to stick up for a bully because there's a legalistic adult policy out there. 

Policies don't create an anti-bullying culture, they create an anti-stupid-adult-policy culture.

What yeh want is to have adults who by word and example teach kids, especially older boys, to care.   Adults who relate well to kids, and are alert to kid behaviors.   Adults who have the intestinal fortitude to respond forcefully when needed, and the wisdom to know that should be rare. 

We teach kids to care by usin' the Oath and Law, eh?   We get adults who are good at this game by recruiting constantly and carefully selecting 'em, eh?   Policy is a weak substitute for either.

Beavah

 

There are things in life for which we can turn the other cheek, but this is not one of them.

 

Yah, hmmmm....

We all get upset from time to time, eh?  Are yeh really sure that da lesson yeh want to teach your boys is that an award in a kids extracurricular program is so important that yeh must ignore the words of Jesus himself as written in the Bible?   Now, to be fair, I don't know if you're a Christian, but da quote was about if someone physically attacked you yeh should let him hit you again, eh?  If he stole your coat, yeh should give him your cloak as well. 

Makin' a lad spend a few more nights out camping with his buddies in order to get a patch in a kids' program ain't even close.

Yeh may think me unfair or harsh, but I'm speakin' as a fellow parent, eh?   You're makin' your kids' extracurricular awards way too much a part of your own ego, mate.   Some of us as parents were perfectly happy when junior only made it to First Class.     Yah, yah, Eagle was a big thing in your life, but yeh have to give your boys space to make it their own, eh?  Not somethin' of their dad's.  There's no reason why your whole family has to "try to get through this."  This is your son's to get through, eh?  Not yours.  Nuthin' worse than adults gettin' caught up in teen drama.  Bad for the adults.  Horrible for the kids.

For the rest of your boys' lives they will be faced with subjective evaluations of their behavior, skills, and character, eh?   By their professors, by their employers, by their girlfriends.  Especially by their girlfriends!   Subjective evaluations are part of life.  Negative evaluations are part of life.  Annoying extra work because someone else screwed up is a part of life. 

Help your sons to Be Prepared by givin' 'em the room to experience that and learn how to deal with it wisely and prudently now, where it really doesn't matter as much.

Is burnin' bridges really what yeh want to teach 'em?

Beavah

However, when an SM does something that is contrary to the BSA's rules, it should go to the CC.  If the CC doesn't correct it, it should go to the COR.  If that doesn't work, try the IH.  At that point you have everyone in the CO saying we know the SM violated the rules and we don't care.  Then you go to District and Council or even National.  The problem only escalates is the CO doesn't do anything about it.

 

Yah, and I reckon at that point yeh have managed to annoy everybody and they've all rolled their eyes and wished you'd just go away.  Probably someone along da way has insisted on it, much like what happened to @@SSF.   

Da BSA provides materials for a youth program.  We expect COs and unit leaders to adapt it to their needs.  We expect unit leaders to sometimes struggle with it, sometimes try different things, sometimes get creative.  Scouting is not "rules", not anywhere in da world.  It's sharin' ideas and approaches and offerin' guidance and training. 

Yeh need to think about Scoutin' as relationships, not as laws and contracts.

Relationships have their conversations and their back-and-forths and whatnot.   But all of that is to be helpful and supportive, eh?   Da goal is to preserve da relationships.   Da relationship between da CO and da BSA, da relationship between families and unit leaders, the relationships between kids.

When yeh choose to put on da self-righteous / precision scouting / rules-not-relationships / I want my kid to get his  hat and go chargin' off to do battle against da evildoers, yeh do nuthin' but damage, eh?   Damage to kids, damage to units, damage to Scouting.

As da actual outcomes for @@SSF and his kids and troop have demonstrated.  

Only da BSA can interpret da BSA's "rules", eh?  Not any of us, at least not when we're not wearin' our tabs and campaign hats.  And da BSA doesn't interpret deviations in Advancement Method, or Uniform Method, or Outdoors Method, or any of that as somethin' that means yeh aren't doin' Scouting and don't merit a charter.  So if we're bein' Trustworthy, we have to acknowledge that, eh?  

Da BSA itself believes Scoutin' is about relationships and maintaining relationships, not about laws and contracts.

Yah, I think da SM and Committee could have done better on their side maintainin' relationships, eh?  I've seen that sort of reaction in folks sometimes (like right here ) when folks get all hot-and-bothered.   If I'd been servin' @@SSF's troop I would have tried to walk 'em back from the cliff the same way I tried to walk @@SSF back, eh?  At this point, though, it's water under da bridge.

Beavah

Signing up to be a CO for a unit as an "act of pure kindness" is not very honest because that is not what the CO says in writing or promises in writing. 

 

Yah, hmmm... I don't understand this comment at all, @@TAHAWK.  Can yeh explain?

It sure seems to me that a CO startin' a scouting youth program is an act of pure kindness.   It's voluntarily takin' on expenses, responsibilities, and a significant liability exposure just to do somethin' good for kids.   In some cases, it's welcoming a controversial group into their facilities and that has caused many of 'em some grief da past few years.    Seems like kindness to me.  We certainly aren't payin' 'em for da privilege.

Yah, hmmm....

I know it's hard for us furry critters who are gettin' longer in da tooth to understand these newfangled media, eh?  Stuff we don't understand always causes folks to become fearful.   Reminds me of how my parents felt Rock & Roll was goin' to rot our minds and corrupt us.     I wonder if my grandparents were worried that da telephone was goin' to cause bad things to happen, too?

I reckon we need to get a grip and think about this for a minute.

So if da youth leaders who have been background checked, are known to da parents, are trusted with kids in remote situations in Real Life, etc. aren't allowed to befriend young folks in social media, who do you think is going to befriend kids secretly?

Yah, that's right... da real predators are.

We don't keep boys safe by buildin' walls, eh?  We keep 'em safe by building communities.  The more good people who know and are friends with a boy, the harder it is for real predators to get away with anything.   The lad has too much social support, too many people readin' his social media, too many people he is willing to turn to with a question or a concern who will listen to him and be able to take action.

Real predators need to isolate kids from their other support mechanisms.  By making it taboo or against policy for teachers and scout leaders and older scout friends and relatives and family friends to engage with boys informally, we are helping the predators isolate our kids.

Most troops have long since opted to ignore da BSA's poor advice in this regard.  I know personally at least 3 boys who were stopped from using drugs (scout leaders caught drug references on their media, got the boys together with their parents).   I know personally 5 boys who were identified as depressed/suicidal and who found help.   I know one lad who was bein' abused at home and because his scout leader was his online friend he was able to get help.

Electronic media leaves records and footprints forever.  It's generally a terrible place to try to solicit kids, at least da big media outlets like Facebook and such.   It's a great place for good people to engage with and encourage young folks.

Relax.   There's near-zero risk here, and lots of upside.  And if we find that new media is scary for us da way rock music once was or telephones and electricity were, then I reckon it's our duty to get off of our duffs and learn somethin' about da modern world, painful as that sometimes is for those of us who remember Sputnik.

If yeh want to worry about somethin', spend your time worryin' about Uncle Fred who you really trust, or Billy's Dad who always drives da carpool.  Da real risks to kids are relatives and close family friends, eh?  Da people who we've never been afraid of.

Besides, odds are the lads' parents have access to their accounts anyways.

Beavah

 

• Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies. They may be found on the My Scouting website and at the following location: www.scouting.org/Membership/Charter_Orgs/ resources.aspx.

Yah, yeh should actually consider readin' da materials, @Tawhawk. 

If yeh go to that page, you'll see a link to da Rules & Regulations of da BSA, which is a specific document, and a page full of da policies we're talkin' about – leadership selection, required YP training, mandatory child abuse reporting, barriers to abuse, etc.   Flaunting those things might get da BSA to choose not to renew a charter, sure.   Especially if they become a PR or liability issue.

We're not talkin' about campin' 12 times a year or only wearin' full uniform or how yeh administer Advancement.   Nobody's got any interest in that, especially since we have a mechanism to give out an award ourselves if the unit refuses to.   Besides, a CO can quite legitimately say that in order to further its aims and values for youth it has to teach youth to be active, responsible, contributing members.  Most churches after all expect weekly attendance, eh?  And they don't give credit for da attendance from 3 years ago.

It's da BSA that gets to decide what da Chartering Agreement means, not you.  I reckon we're goin' to keep rechartering units despite your objection to da lack of precision.   After all, if we started droppin' charters every time a parent had an advancement dispute with a unit, we'd be an organization with only a few thousand members in a few years' time.    

Advancement is a kids' game we use as a tool, eh?  Nuthin' more.  That's why I keep comparin' it to sports and sportsmanship, not to law and policy.  It's not da nuclear launch codes, and we're not goin' to go nuclear by pullin' charters over advancement issues.   How many summer camps are there that are in technical violation of da MB rules?   How many council charters have yeh seen revoked as a result?

Beavah

 

There are at least four other families/parents that i know of who have issues with the way things are being done in the troop; either related to advancement, bullying (and in some cases racism) between the scouts and a general sense of distrust for the troop’s leaders. Most of the other parents and families beyond that, in my opinion, just go with the flow and do as they're told. I don't think they're especially familiar with BSA rules and regs. 

 

 

One of those families in particular feels as strongly as I do about the way the troop has handled their son's Eagle project proposal, which was suspiciously delayed for a year. They also had a meeting with the SM, CC and UC on the same night my older son and I did. Their meeting was also very contentious and heated and, from what I understand, it was the mother who advocated most vocally for her son, while the husband remained relatively quiet.

 

 

I’ve encouraged that family to be more vocal with Council, however, they are extremely fearful of retaliation, especially before their son’s Eagle proposal is approved.

 

Yah, hmmm...

These things often go this way, eh?

When a disgruntled parent doesn't get what they want, they escalate da rhetoric.   So things move from relatively small advancement issues like how da troop defines active and then suddenly become reports of bullying and racism and other impropriety.

My advice to yeh, @@SSF, is that yeh stop that nonsense.   Now you're startin' to try to hurt other people, rather than just advocate for your son.  You're tryin' to whip up other parents, even though almost none of 'em are interested.  You're doin' that to try to hurt da SM and CC, even though they're just followin' through on what the Troop Committee composed of other parents voted to do.  You've talked to da COR who has final authority in these matters, and he's supportin' the SM and CC and Committee, eh?

It's over.

I know it's frustratin' for yeh, and unfortunately you're now in a spot where your choices are havin' an impact on your kids.  But yeh have got to take a deep breath and a step back.   Anger's a step in da grieving process and wise council folks will understand that, but if yeh start makin' false accusations of something like racism then yeh might find that not just this troop but scoutin' in general no longer wants to have you or your kids around.

Beavah

Yah, hmmm...

Lots of confusion here it seems.

Nobody's entitled to membership in a unit, eh?  Da unit can remove whomever it wants from its membership rolls.  Yah, yah, in terms of registered adult leaders da call is technically da COR/IH's, though in many cases da committee is involved.  In terms of removin' a youth, da BSA's recommended procedure is to involve da Committee, but da SM is usually the one makin' the call and the COR certainly can.  Nobody's entitled to come on a trip or to a meeting.

In many cases da BSA may also act in addition to da CO and remove someone's registration, eh?  It lapses at the end of the year in any event.   It's very rare for da BSA to act on someone's registration without da concurrence of the CO; really it happens only over da gay/atheist and youth protection issues.

There are lots of very good reasons why a unit might want to not invite a parent or other adult to its meetings or campouts, eh?  Adults are humans, too.  Sometimes they behave badly. Sometimes they aren't healthy.  Sometimes they can't swim.  Sometimes they can't avoid smoking.  Sometimes havin' 8 adults and 4 kids is just silly.

When we're talkin' about da Chartering relationship, it ain't a franchise like McDonald's, eh?  We're not makin' hamburgers, we're teachin' kids.   Da BSA functions more like a textbook publisher.  They hold da copyrights and trademarks on da BSA materials, and they license those materials to Chartered Organizations for the CO's use in runnin' its own program with its own goals.

Just like a school teacher can skip Chapters 6 and 7 in da textbook or use a supplemental text, COs that use da BSA materials can drop things, re-arrange things, make use of other materials from other groups, write their own supplemental materials, etc.   Da BSA doesn't care about that sort of thing.  We respect it and encourage it.   Where do yeh think program improvements and new programs come from?  There are a bazillion great ideas over at USSSP and other places online, eh?  It's part of what makes Scoutin' a rich and vibrant community.

Da only way a local unit can put a charter at risk is when their actions (and da related PR) put da BSA's brand identity at risk, and da BSA has to act to protect its asset.   So if yeh put on your scout uniform and make a TV add endorsing Donald Trump or Butterball Turkeys, expect a cease-and-desist.   If yeh vandalize a national monument in a viral YouTube video carried by every major media outlet, expect da BSA to act even if da CO doesn't.  If yeh decide to give Eagle Scout to a vocal New Atheist and invite CBS, and then yeh do it a couple more times, you're done. 

Other than those sorts of things, da BSA respects and follows da lead of da Chartered Partner.   This is an important part of da BSA's liability protection, eh?  If we really were controllin' all aspects of da unit programs, then we'd be liable for da unit programs rather than just an insurer.   To maintain our insulation, we can't behave like da "superior" overseein' ordinary unit operations.  This is why, for example, "Tour Permits" no longer exist.  We don't "permit" da units to do anything, eh?  Instead, we just suggest or expect a "plan" to be helpful.

For Advancement, Eagle Scout and da other ranks are da BSA's award, so we can give it to whomever we wish, eh?  If a unit chooses not to bestow a rank, we can if we feel it's been earned.  That's it.  Givin' out awards isn't interferin' in da unit's operations.  Da unit can keep on keepin' on pretty much, and we don't really do any quality control in da other direction on units that just pencil-whip awards. 

Does a unit have an ethical  obligation to follow da BSA's guidebooks?  I reckon it depends whether yeh are a Patrol Method or a Troop Method person, eh?    If yeh think da BSA is made up of organizations sponsoring units the way a troop is made up of patrols, then no.   If yeh think da BSA is what's important and da unit is a sort of subsidiary of da BSA the way a patrol is just a subsidiary under da direction of a troop, then yes.     Of course, our actual legal organization is just like our old materials, eh?  We're Patrol Method.

Beavah

Yah, you got it, @@UncleP!  Scoutin' grew up in da era of the John Dewey democratic citizen education stuff.  Go do things and learn from doing is the way boys thrive.   Doin' it in the outdoors makes da lessons stronger, eh?  In town, yeh can not do the dishes and mom will either do 'em or make yeh do 'em.  Outdoors yeh have gross dishes the next morning, and unhappy friends.

ISP was a disaster in the 1970s.  It showed just how bad da national office was at really understandin' Scouting.  Paid scouting "executives" worldwide have a checkered history at best.  

Da 80s brought back traditional scouting.   There was a long-time national scouter named Green Bar Bill who wrote many of the pre-1970s handbooks and was brought back from retirement for the 80s correction.  Having one main writer of core materials helps make da vision and mission clear, eh?

The 1990s revision that introduced New Scout Patrols and Advancement Emphasis came after Bill retired, and with that edition and all da materials since then there hasn't been much vision, eh?  Things are mostly done by large committees and based on marketing surveys rather than mission.  For example, we started a program called First Class Emphasis which tried to get all the boys 3 rank awards in their first year.  There wasn't a  lick of discussion about whether that made sense in terms of kids' learning and growth, eh?  It was all based on marketing metrics that showed boys were most likely to drop out their first year, and boys who earned First Class rank (at any age) were likely to stay involved for da long haul.   See "correlation vs. causation".

Even when our materials are mission-focused they tend to have a heavy dose of Babel, eh?  Materials by committee, with limited editing. 

So what we've seen gradually is a shift in program materials to make Scoutin' more like school, eh?  Merit Badge "classes" and worksheets, same-age groups of kids who have to advance together (First Class First Year!), awards more for successful paperwork than for actually learnin' skills a lad can use.   Lots more hoverin' over kids for "safety", etc.  That's just broader society intrudin' on da program, which is what happens when yeh make marketing drive program rather than mission.   It's just been more gradual than it was in da 1970s, so da member losses have been more gradual as well.  Many of da folks here who are long-time scouters still run more traditional programs as part of da loyal opposition.  

Still, Scoutin' is a sound program and da biggest youth movement in da history of Planet Earth.  So I reckon there's still somethin' to it, eh?  There are lots of good folks and good troops out there, for sure, and it's still pretty common to hear an Eagle Scout say that Scoutin' was da Number 1 influence on his life, after his family.

Beavah

I have to disagree with Beavah on this last point.  The younger son says he would like to continue in scouting with this unit.  I see no reason why he shouldn't.

 

As an Athletic Director, I have seen parents ejected from ballgames, banned from school grounds, and placed under restraining orders.  The kids still played.

 

It can still work.

Yah, I hear yeh @DavidCO.

I reckon da difference is that schools have a lot more clout in dealin' with this sort of thing than an average troop can muster.  For one, yeh have paid professional staff, like Athletic Directors.      Yeh also have school grounds that yeh own and control, where a troop really doesn't, eh?   Can't ban a parent from a state park campground.    Yeh have da finances and legal expertise to go get restraining orders, and yeh aren't spendin' the night with the kids in remote areas, eh?

Like I said, I've seen it work once or twice where one parent agreed to stay away and let da other parent deal with the scout unit.  That takes a lot of integrity and self-control on the part of the parents, and a lot of trust on da part of the volunteers. 

Me personally, I wouldn't take a boy into the woods unless I felt I had a reasonable level of support and trust from the parents.  There are just way too many ways things can come to grief otherwise, not da least of which is unsupportive parents' habit of bein' very litigious and very willin' to make accusations of wrongdoin'.   Plus it ain't great for the boy, eh?  The adults in his life should be on da same page.

Beavah

Well "Patrols" is one of the methods of Scouting that the CO agrees to implement. The challenge as I see it is that adults do not think they are ready to take charge. Question is this: HOW DO THEY GET READY TO TAKE CHARGE IF THE ADULTS DO EVERYTHING FOR THEM? (emphasis, not shouting)

Yeh do leader training with 'em.   Preferably in da outdoors. 

That's the time for the adults to help 'em set up systems and learn how to handle various types of challenges.   It's also a good time for the adults to get comfortable with their capabilities.    By doin' leader training the PLs and older boys get to learn and figure things out and work out teamwork on da PLC in a practice environment where they've got time to debrief and they're not embarrassed in front of da whole troop.

Generally speakin', I think a Patrol-Method, youth-led troop needs a lot more time spent on Patrol Leader / Youth Leader training than what da modern BSA materials call for. 

Though I think EDGE is sorta a silly thing, remember EDGE, eh?  Yeh need time to Explain and Demonstrate and Guide your PLs and other youth leaders, eh?  Yeh don't just start out by chainin' the adults up in a corner and lettin' the lads sink or swim.   So, for example, before yeh tell the young ones to go to their PL for equipment problems, yeh better have spent some time teachin' da PLs how to do tent and stove repair, eh?  Otherwise you're settin' 'em up for failure, not success.

#1 the two experienced adults regarding summer camp will only be there part of the week, and one is Gunship for 2 days.

Yah, lots of times adult schedules cause issues like this eh?   I reckon your instincts are right, eh?  For a troop that's new to youth leadership, yeh really want one consistent adult with a vision to be at camp for da whole week.  Otherwise the boys get whiplash, eh? 

Summer camp is da best time to set up the way the troop will work for da rest of the year, eh?   Aren't any other times when we have the lads for such a long stretch.   Yeh want to use that time well.   If you're buildin' Patrol Method, yeh want to find a camp that will let yeh use Patrol Method, and not just have boys off lone-scouting Merit Badges or Troop Method dining-halling. 

Beavah

Yah, hmmm....

Not sure, eh?  Depends on what your version of "better sense" is.

Yah, some troops do this as well, eh?  I'd say fewer.  It's up to da troop.  I don't know any troops that are doin' the full federal business miles rate (currently $0.54/mi).   Sometimes yeh see da charitable rate ($0.14/mi), sometimes somethin' in between.

Personally I like this for units, eh?  Yeh don't have to bog da treasurer down in receipt tracking, yeh just get a list of da drivers and use Google maps for da mileage.   It makes budgeting for the boys straightforward.

On da personal pocketbook side, this comes out pretty close to Option #1, dependin' on what amount da troop is reimbursing.

No matter what, in all three of your options you're still askin' drivers to foot da cost of depreciation, maintentance, insurance, etc.

Beavah

 

The SM and CC of my son’s troop have violated those tenets to an egregious degree....

 

As I've said, it's shameful and vile that good scouts like my son are  made to suffer while vindictive scouters are protected and shielded and allowed to continue to do a great disservice to boys and to their families.

 

Yah, @@SSF, do yeh see what you're writin' here?   This is a decision to pull your boys out of this troop now.  Yeh can't continue, eh?  It's not good for you, and it isn't good for them either.

Go find another troop or another program that meets your needs.

The troop you're leavin' is goin' to keep doin' what they feel is best, so long as they have da support of other parents and kids, eh?  Sometimes a program that isn't a good fit for one family works just fine for other families.  Regardless, it's no longer your concern, eh?  Time to follow your own advice, put your kids first, and go find another program that yeh think yeh can support and that will support your family.

Just remember, whether it's da soccer coach or da band director or the math teacher or da youth minister or a new scoutmaster, they all will need and expect your support, eh?  If we want other people to help with our child's learnin' and growth, that's da price we all have to pay.  Choose a program yeh can really commit to supportin'.

Know whatever yeh choose folks will never be perfect.  They'll sometimes be wrong.  We're all human.  If we're not OK with that, then we can always keep the lads at home for school and everything else, eh?  Then it will only be us as parents who are never perfect, and sometimes dead wrong.

Beavah

I have concerns about JTE, but, the recruiting, retention, and advancement metrics are or should be a reflection of the service a unit is providing. 

Well, da first problem is that da way JTE is used is not really to evaluate da unit, eh?  It's to evaluate the district professionals and district.  Tell me, how does the district and the district pro really affect retention in the unit or advancement in the unit, or even unit recruitin'?   The only way to do that directly is to run advancement mill weekends and paper signups.  So that's what yeh get, sometimes. 

In terms of da unit, do we really think that the best thing for folks is to introduce 'em to some CMM or continuous improvement models?  Really?  I'm not sure we've got any good data that they work in large corporations where people are bein' paid.  Mostly they're sorta despised, eh?  Why would yeh do that to volunteers?

Let's be honest, every unit out there knows where they stand on recruitment and retention and participation and advancement without havin' to fill out a form.   Da problems are usually that they don't have the volunteer strength to move forward on things, eh?   Either that, or local circumstances won't let 'em in some way, like when a DE starts too many small units in an area.   JTE doesn't really help with that.

Besides, da work we are actually supposed to be accomplishing is to help young fellas grow in citizenship, character, and fitness.  I'm not sure there's anything on JTE that is really measuring those outcomes at all.  At da council level our mission is to provide service, and there's nuthin' that actually measures providing service.   JTE mostly just feeds da Irving executives' needs for fillin' in powerpoints and presentation folders.

Beavah

 

So, furry Scouter, support of the committee and other adults may be significant - or not.  Look who gets votes these days.

Yah, for sure.

Nobody losin' their membership or charter though. 

One of da most common sources of contention is da thing we're seein' here, eh?   A unit that passes a lad along to Life Scout, then when the lad is comin' up for Eagle they discover that they don't like the outcome and they try to fix it in da bottom of the 9th.   It's most common in troops where adults are still learnin', or where there's a new sheriff in town and he or she is tryin' to up da expectations for the boys after some years of neglect and mediocrity.  In my experience it's ordinarily a good sign for a troop, because it's a sign the adults really care and have some vision for what they want scoutin' to accomplish.

My advice to 'em is to do what they can with da older lads in small ways, but to be realistic about what's possible and fair in the time left.  Mostly yeh have to let da older lads go, eh?    Work on re-establishin' norms with the younger guys.  Yeh can't address problems at Eagle, yeh have to make First Class meaningful, and Star, and Life.   If da outcome yeh want is a boy with certain character and values at the end (Eagle or not), then work backwards from that until yeh start at the beginning, eh?  Da road has to begin at Scout, not at project signatures.

Of course, da other problem is with Advancement, eh?  Da method doesn't work as a punishment, and yeh can't use it that way.   It doesn't work as an entitlement or as a check-da-box exercise either, eh?  It only works as genuine recognition of a lad's effort and abilities.   Our ranks have to reflect da recognition and esteem of peers and adults that is already present, otherwise they're just cloth.

Beavah

Beavah, I know this may be an over-simplification, but this is what the council told me about advancement program when we first chartered our unit back in the 80's.

 

Advancement is like the uniforms.  We don't require you to buy uniforms, but if you decide to go with the uniforms, we want you to wear them correctly.

Yah, sure.  We "want" yeh to.    Uniformin' works best when it's, well, uniform.  Besides, Supply Division needs to make its annual revenue projections!

Now think for a minute about all da times yeh have seen an adult or a youth member commit da sartorial abomination of wearin' da field uniform shirt with blue jeans.   Imagine that improper uniformin' hideousness in its full glory.   Make 'em cut-off jeans on a rotund scouter if yeh like.

You don't think we're actually revokin' registrations and addin' people to da Ineligible Volunteers List over that, do yeh?   I can't remember ever seein' a charter revoked for units not havin' official socks or belts, but then I'm growin' old and feeble.

Nah.  Just like we're not givin' folks da heave ho for advancement mills or for not really havin' patrol flags or for havin' the adults do most of the cookin' or for puttin' a youth lifeguard in a boat with a nonswimmer instead of a parent.  We're a program provider and an association of volunteers that share certain goals is all. 

Heck we don't even revoke membership when an adult's poor judgment contributes to a boy dying, eh?  We don't drop charters when a CO's action leads to greater liability in molestation cases.  Instead, we help 'em and care for 'em as brother scouters and loyal customers.

I reckon that there will always be some scouters who are into da precision scoutin' thing, eh?  Every knot sewn on (right side up), every boy spit-and-polished, no day gone by without quotin' from a book to show how knowledgeable or important they are, eh?   That's fine, I reckon.   Some adults get into that sort of thing, and it even works for some lads and some families.

Just don't mix that up with da BSA or scoutin' in general.  There are lots of different ways to play da scouting game, and we support 'em.  It's a diverse world out here.  We want folks to do Scoutin' well is all... meanin' usin' it to accomplish good things for kids, and helpin' 'em grow in fitness, character, and citizenship before God and Man.

Beavah

Yah, hmmmm....

Teenagers are such fun things, eh?   Up one moment, down the next.  Like tryin' to eat spaghetti on a roller coaster.

I reckon I'd shoot a quick email off to da SM and let him know that your son is a bit down because he couldn't hook up last week to get this done, and that yeh don't want to push your lad but it would be great if da SM could give him a gentle pull.   Just a quick request to see his stuff at the next meetin', or even at a SM conference next week or whatnot.

That's usually about all it takes.  Or as a parent yeh just hop in da car to take him to the next meetin' and say "come on". Biggest thing about teenagers, eh?  Don't get caught up in their drama.  Treat 'em like the (near) adults they are and they'll love yeh for it.

I can't speak to why da troop had a bunch of weeks without meetings, though that sometimes happens with troops that meet on Sundays because of other conflicts (campouts, OA, adult or church conflicts, etc.).   We'd hope for better, but sometimes life happens.

Beavah

Yah, where's da FACEPALM emoji?

Yah, @@John-in-KC just threw da gauntlet down there, eh?

JTE exists primarily for da evaluation of professionals and (to some extent) councils.  It's really an odd sort of thing for folks in unit service, and has been since da beginning since it really isn't for unit service. 

I confess I'm not a big fan, but I help get da numbers a bit as a good turn for our pros.  On da unit side, I think it's like any of our materials, eh?  Use it if it works for yeh, modify it or drop it if it doesn't.   I really don't get why we can't fill in half of da things ourselves at da council level rather than givin' a bunch of busywork to the units, though.

What makes a better measure for me is askin' adult and youth leaders how we're doin' in providin' them service, and what we could be doin' better.  For some reason, feedback on service is missin' from all levels of JTE.

Beavah

 

The position that whatever the SM says goes is contrary to the rules and ideals of Scouting.

Except if we're bein' honest, that's not what we have, eh?   Da Committee Chair, and presumably the Committee are in agreement with da Scoutmaster.   As far as we know, da COR is on board with the CC, Committee, and SM.   From what we can tell, da ASMs aren't linin' up to support this family either, eh?  Knowin' boys, I even expect the other boys fall in the "if I have to keep up my participation for Eagle, why shouldn't he have to?" camp.  After all, da younger brother doesn't seem to be wantin' to quit over the way his older sibling has been treated.

So what was that about automatic assumptions over who was bein' wrong and evil?

Yah, I'm not a big one for who is right and wrong and lots of pointin' at other folks eh?  We're all da heroes of our own stories.  I just care about outcomes, and bein' mindful of my own (in)ability to influence da outcome.  If I'm talkin' to a parent I can't change da SM, all I can do is give the parent advice, eh?   If I'm talkin' to a SM I can't change a parent's behavior, but I can help a SM think about things differently. 

In the end, none of us can force volunteers or parents to do anything.  They're volunteers and parents.  Yeh can't make a volunteer work with a kid, they have to choose to give up their free time to do so.  If they're not willin' to, it's over.  Yeh can't make a parent be supportive of a lad's program.  They have to choose to trust and work with da leaders.  If they won't, it's over.

At points like this it's almost always best to move along and start relationships afresh rather than try to rebuild bridges that have been burned to da ground.

That leaves transferring to another troop.  Hopefully there is another troop where your son has one or more friends or at least positive acquaintances.  Discuss the situation with prospective SMs.  Try to have someone with good rep introduce your son to the prospective SM.   Bend over backwards to be fair to those who have not earned fairness.   Hopefully, your son can honestly say, " I don;t want any special breaks.  I just want Eagle if I have passed all the requirements - no more and no less."

Yah, da older lad is already out, eh?  He's just pursuin' an EBOR under disputed circumstances.   I think @@SSF is talkin' about his/her younger son.

Havin' the younger lad transfer to another troop is also an option, if there's one available that the boy is interested in and that @@SSF feels he/she can support.

Beavah

But if they are not implementing the BSA program as designed and making stuff up council can remove them and compel the CO to find new ones.

Yah, you all are funny, eh?

That's not at all the way the BSA works.   If that's what you're lookin' for, yeh need to find a different organization for your volunteer time, eh? 

In da BSA, councils are chartered to provide service and support to Chartered Organizations and units.   That's it.   We're there to help 'em use Scouting as part of their organization's youth programming. 

They don't have to use it "as designed".   They can run Troop Method instead of Patrol Method, they can do lots of Outdoors or very little.   We don't make 'em wear uniforms or throw 'em out for puttin' on an "Untrainable" patch.  They can choose not to do any advancement at all, and da organization can decide what Duty to God or Duty to Country or Loyal or Obedient means within their unit.   They choose their own leaders, they decide what da role of da Troop Committee is (if any).  They're perfectly free to "make stuff up".   They can create their own awards, they can decide to have a youth treasurer instead of a scribe or whatever.

Yah, yah, if there's a credible claim of child molestation or someone makes a big public deal about bein' an atheist or posts a YouTube video vandalizing a national monument (or a fellow becomes a whistleblower about council mismanagement) then da SE can remove an individual's scouting registration.  Even then da individual can still work for the CO and even be put in charge of hiring/firing da COR.

Yah, yah, if a CO insisted in da news media and in court that it must have a gay leader a few years ago, or it proves to be a major PR or financial liability in other ways then National (through da Region) can choose not to renew a charter.   If it's part of a very large chartering partner then not even then, eh?

Da thing of it is, it goes both ways, eh?   In fact, it's far more common for a CO to remove an adult than it is for a council SE to do so, and it's far more common for a CO to drop a charter than it is for the BSA to do so.   Orders of magnitude more common.   The CO always has da stronger hand, eh?   They are our customer, and for the most part da customer is always right.  Not the youth.  Not the parent.  

We're there only to provide support and service to da CO and unit, eh?  Without them, we cease to exist.   Without us, they just go run other youth programs.  Maybe CYO, maybe TLUSA, maybe Campfire, maybe just their own thing.  They might choose Scouting, but they don't need Scouting.  We need them.

So yeh can imagine da Advancement Police or da Uniform Police or da BSA Program Police goin' in and throwin' people out and settin' fire to unit charters on da front lawn pour encourager les autres.   It just ain't reality.   That's not the way Scoutin' works.

Beavah

 

I thought I'd share a brief update. If nothing else it's somewhat, therapeutic, to share my thoughts here.

 

 

In short, my older son completed his one final partial for his one outstanding merit badge. The merit badge counselor signed the blue card, but when my son gave the card to the SM, the SM refused to sign it.

 

Made no sense, but I am no longer surprised by anything from this SM at this point. He's shirked all accountability up to this point. Why start doing the right thing now?

 

So, the merit badge partial is also something that is now technically, under dispute, although since my son has a blue card signed by a registered counselor and a copy of the work he did, I'm hopeful that this will not be an issue.

 

 

Also, a week after my son and I had that horrendous meeting with the SM, CC and UC, I was informed that I had been banned from any and all troop functions, activities or events. It was also emphasized that both of my sons would be immediately removed from the troop if I did not abide by this. 

 

I guess that when a father speak the truth and is unwilling to sit idly by while two grown men (SM and CC) throw all kinds of false accusations and barbs at your son and tell him that he’s not worthy of being an Eagle Scout, that you’re supposed to just sit there and let them do that.

 

And when you call them out on statements that are unfair or false, you’re labeled as a trouble maker, and then banned.

 

 

Beavah, as you predicted, it seems that my bridges have been burned.

 

 

The main issue that I’m now wrestling with is my younger son. He’s indicated that he wants to remain in the troop solely because this is where his friends are – but that is going to be virtually impossible if I’m banned from attending any and all functions. My younger son is not aware of the ban, but my older son is.

 

 

On the flip side, in a much as I want my younger son to be able to remain with his friends, I have to think of my son’s health and well being and put that first. The SM and CC have shown a level of contemptuousness that I didn't believe possible for scout leaders to possess.

 

They've hurt my older son and I have to believe that they would try to hurt (through advancement or other means) my younger son also.

 

Quick side note - my younger son had recently begun an Eagle required badge with the CC, but low and behold, sure enough I stopped getting any info on when they'd be meeting next...

 

 

 

I am at somewhat of a loss as to how the SM and CC have been allowed to remain in their current positions. 

 

Council is investigating but, at present, it seems that the self-serving interests of the scouters are being put ahead of what's fair and right for the scouts.

 

The joys of scouting, so much fun...

 

Yah, hmmmm....

Sorry to hear all that, @@SSF.   We often say that Scoutin' is a lot of fun, except for the adults, eh?

I suspect that da only viable thing is to take your younger lad out of the program.   How can yeh possibly send your boy out into the woods with these folks given what you're sayin' about 'em here?   Either it's irresponsible, or yeh really don't think they're that bad if you're willin' to trust your son to them on a regular basis.   Yeh have to really think about which it is.

On da flipside, no adult in their right mind should choose to assume responsibility for your boy on campouts or in counselin' situations knowin' yeh feel and behave da way yeh do, eh?   It's not worth da aggravation or da risk for a volunteer.  They might stop just short of removin' your boy from the program because scouters hate kickin' boys out, but they're goin' to put up a lot of barriers to protect themselves that will impact your son's scoutin' experience.  Da CC is just a volunteer, eh?  He isn't required to spend time with your son workin' on a badge if he's not comfortable with that.

I reckon yeh need to find a new activity for your boys, eh?   Da only other possible option is if your spouse is better at this sort of thing, and you're willin' to step completely out of da scoutin' game and let her/him handle it from here on out.   Accept your ban as being a permanent thing for your own benefit and your son's, and let your spouse be da one who interfaces with the troop goin' forward.   I've only seen that work a couple of times, but yeh might think about it.   My guess would be that it's not somethin' yeh would be willin' or able to do, so you're back to findin' a new activity for your younger son.

I'd take a look at 4-H, or activity-specific adventure programs in your area.   If yeh have a semi-local rock climbing gym, for example, they're sure to have a youth program that's way more adventurous and fitness-promoting than da BSA.   Odds are your younger son will be able to suck some of his school and scout friends into another activity that he finds cool or interestin'.

Good luck with it.

Beavah

To tell the truth I do not see how camping and hiking will help him get all those citizenship badges, but you could fill libraries with all the material I do not understand.  In the long run all that matters is that he have fun.

Yah, that's because Scoutin' works its magic in da background, eh?

There will be troop and patrol elections, so your nephew will see up close and personal how elections affect his life and other people's lives, eh?  How sometimes the fellow who is da best talker or da funniest or da one he agrees with most isn't the hardest worker or the best leader.   

He'll come to see a Patrol Leader's Council act as a legislature of sorts, settin' budgets and choosing activities.

He'll watch a Senior Patrol Leader and the fellows he selects serve as a sort of executive and cabinet, eh?  Gettin' things done, takin' on specific roles like managin' the troop gear, etc.  He'll learn that not every real leader is elected, eh?  Some just step up.

He'll see how his patrol and other patrols are also independent from da troop in many ways, and can run their own activities and set their own budgets and rules.  Just like states!

He'll have to resolve disputes about doin' dishes and what route to take on a hike and disputes between tent-mates, and begin to see da advantage of havin' independent mechanisms for resolvin' disputes.

He'll start to experience how on hikes da stronger boys take care of da weaker ones, or how on a bad-weather campout da stronger patrols help out the ones that need help.  So he'll begin to see that's often what we try to do as good citizens as well, eh?  He'll learn that lots of times good citizens have to work extra hard to clean up da mess that was caused by a friend or another patrol, and sometimes he'll be the one that causes a problem that his buddies have to fix.

He'll play Capture The Flag against other troops, and be proud of both his patrol and his troop as teammates workin' together.  He'll have to negotiate game rules with other troops, just the way countries negotiate treaties, and he'll also learn that other troops do things differently but can still be friends, allies, or honorable rivals.

Boy Scoutin' and all that camping and hiking is what makes citizenship real to the boys, eh?  Not just an abstract thing that yeh learn in school, but somethin' that really matters and that each boy is really a part of.  That's the magic of what we do, eh, and what's really behind all that campin' and hikin' and adventurin'.

Beavah

Yah, I'd say your $275 is pretty much in line with what da actual costs are for a reasonably active troop, eh?   Depends on where yeh are in da country and how much gear yeh have vs. what yeh have to rent (around here, canoe rentals have gotten steep...). 

On average, I'd say troops run the range, eh?  Some of 'em charge roughly that as dues (usually split quarterly or semi-annually), some of 'em commit to fundraisin' da whole thing.  Most split it in some way, either through scout accounts/family choice, or some other formula.   Lots and lots of variations on that.

So you're not out of line expense-wise.   Based on what you're sayin' and what yeh say your troop culture has been up to this point I'd suggest two options:  

1) Commit to additional fundraisers and keep da troop culture of we always pay for things through fundraisin'.

2) Set dues to match the activity fees or some fraction thereof, and then have fundraising go to gear/camperships/summer camp/reregistration/awards/adult and youth leader training fees, etc.     In other words, set da new culture to be that boys and families pay for the activities for themselves, and fundraise for all da group stuff that makes the troop go.  It often helps when fundraisin' to know where it's goin' - both to encourage donors and to encourage participants!

Beavah

Yah, @@blw2, take a break, grab a beverage, and then sit back down and read your original post, eh?

There's an awful lot of adult-driven stuff there, yeh know.  Yeh tell 'em how much.  Yeh tell 'em how (a "pouch" they have to bring to meetings?  really?).  Yeh set up a whole accounting/reporting system that goes back to da adult treasurer.   Yeh have to have adults approve purchases, etc.

And yeh haven't even really identified any reason they might genuinely want to do this themselves, eh?

Gack!

How 'bout this instead. 

Yeh encourage the lads to think about stuff they might want or want to do as a patrol.   Cool new stove?  Tiki torches for their campground?  Special trip just for them?

Yeh help 'em budget for it and set dues to whatever they need to accomplish that.

Yeh let 'em handle the money themselves.  Paypal, square, cash, patrol fiat currency exchangeable for girl scout cookies, whatever.  

Yeh coach da scribe or youth treasurer on how to help guide and support da patrols/patrol treasurer.

Yeh get out of the way.

Honestly, da weekly dues thing I think is just adult-run nonsense.  There's no real-world organization that has weekly dues.  What a nightmare that would be!   Annual is most common for organizations, followed by monthly.  And yeh never ever have to show up in person to pay your dues in cash.  Prepare the lads for da real world, and stop givin' 'em arbitrary adult make-work.

Beavah