Beavah

Dear Terry,

I am a relative newbie to the Scouter.com forums, though I have been enjoying Scouter.com since the early days of the magazine. Sometimes the perspective of a new set of eyes can be helpful, so I offer the following thoughts:

It certainly is true that Juris' writing style was at times difficult to parse. And yet I found that very often his posts were interesting, and attempted to bring to the discussion alternate views that really exist out in the wider world of Scouting. His concerns about Cub Scouting, for example, could have come straight from the mouth of one of our ASMs, an Eagle, Navy Commander and Educational Psychology Ph.D. with 20 years as a Scouter, whose son is now in Cub Scouting.

From my perspective, what is disturbing on your nominally moderated forums is not Juris' posts, but the replies to his posts. These frequently degenerate into belittling personal attacks which have no relationship that I can find to the Scout Oath or Law. From my perspective, the problem was not with Juris, but with the others. That includes some responses posted by those who have access to the "secret" moderator discussion forum. It is worth noting that Juris rarely responded in kind.

Dismissing the value of a perspective because of the (lack of) polish in its presentation is hardly a value that's consistent with what I and my Chartering Org. view as appropriate for Scouting. It is little different from dismissing a perspective because of the person's gender, or race, or language background, or faith. The accompanying ridicule is, quite frankly, abhorrent. An enormous number of adults are challenged by literacy, and as a people we have a moral obligation to reach out to them, not with ridicule, but with compassion.

I regret that I must therefore retire from your forums, and that I can no longer recommend your service to the many scouts and scouters I know within my chartered organization and my region. Please delete my forum record and profile from your database.

With sadness,

Beavah

Right.

Da BSA is always flawless and anything that goes wrong is the unit leader's fault. Anything that goes right is because of da BSA program.

Buffalo Biskits.

Read about the latest scouting fatality on the Animas River. One boy dead, multiple boys endangered. Da DE says it was all done "by the (BSA) book" and must be a freak accident. Everyone else wit real knowledge and skill in the articles say that this was an obvious, well-known, well-marked dangerous hazard. Da BSA talks about how they did swim-checks, before paddlin into a trap that an Olympic swimmer would not survive.

So much for the Gospel of BSA Program.

Actually, Barry, I bragged about being Loosy Goosey because the group-think here (and the level of animosity displayed toward those who werent group-thinking) was so profound.

Our SM does a great job. He has many strengths and a few weaknesses. So do I as CC. Well keep the weaknesses under control, but were not going to harp on them. Were going to work with his strengths. In so doing, weve built the largest and most active program in our district. And from my service on Eagle Reviews, were doin just fine on Ideals and Uniform where they count in the heart, not on the sleeve.

CNY writes:

You say that your Troop is good about leadership and the patrol method. These two methods are closely related. You will not have good success in using one without the other. You also say that you are weak in Uniform and Ideals method. Arent these two methods closely related? Isnt one reason we wear the Uniform to show that we follow the Ideals.

Horse hockey. There are lots of youth programs that are great at leadership development without using groupings/competition. There are lots of programs with great teamwork that teach nothing about leadership. There are plenty of people who live the Ideals deeply without the uniform, and plenty in uniform that do not follow the ideals. Besides, the Uniform Method is not about clothing.

Da point? The Methods are related but independent. And dey aren't Gospel.

I know its much easier to concentrate on the strengths but a good leader understands that to grow you must spend the time working on areas where you are weak.

NONSENSE. I would never put a person who believed that in a leadership position. A good leader knows that to grow as a team he must build on the strengths of the individuals he has, not harp on their weaknesses. Never try to make an artist into an engineer. Help him to be a better artist.

If you find yourself in a mediocre unit, build on its strengths, dont harp on its weaknesses.

At least thats the advice of someone with a lot more than 3 years of experience in scouting, and a lot more years working wit young people.

Beavah

Laugh or cry.

I'm a greenhorn here, I admit. But do yah all think it's alright to treat someone you disagree with in this way?

Juris offers an opinion that the BSA booklets ain't Gospel, and are indeed quite quirky when viewed from the perspective of international scouting. Some on this forum "believe" in the BSA Corporate brand as though it were a centralized religion. But even the BSA doesn't believe that, if you look at the extensive modifications it endorses by chartering orgs. like LDS.

I know plenty of good people who struggle with literacy, both youth and adults. Juris appears to be one.

I also know plenty of people who struggle with ethical behavior, kindness and charity. You people appear to be them.

I'm ashamed to wear the same uniform.

Signing off,

Beavah

Nah, we've always adapted the program according to the strengths of the adults and the input of the youth.

Ideals moved a bit out of front-and-center because of the strengths and weaknesses of the current SM. The ideals moving out of front-and -center and the slack in uniforming corresponds most directly to the dramatic improvement in the use of the patrol method and further improvements in the leadership method brought by the current SM.

It's a good example of the tradeoffs that come with individual strengths and development, when ya think about it. PL's doing their job and taking lead means less adult-run "Scout Law" talk (and the SM don't like doing that kind of talk because he ain't good at it). Youth-run outdoor meetings by patrol means less uniforming at meetings, 'cause they're swimmin and paddlin and orienteerin', not dressin' up.

Beavah

LOL!

Yah, well, OK. Maybe not Loosey-Goosey... maybe "cafeteria scouting" or "wild goosey."

Let me see...

No new scout patrol. No real emphasis on 1st class in a year. No UC. Don't use troop program features. Weak in-house uniforming; no official pants. Well, dat may be it. Still sounds like da sort of "adaptation" that everyone here seems up in arms about.

If I were to be honest...

The Ideals: We're OK, not as strong as we were a few years ago. Current SM doesn't keep the Oath and Law front-and-center as much.

Patrol Method: Pretty good, better than we've been in the past. Meetings are 95% by patrol (5% whole troop announcements/opening/closing). Camping is always by patrol; some patrol outings but still most campouts are done as a troop.

Outdoors: Very strong, lots of activities, run all summer, etc.

Advancement: Ah... OK. Not an emphasis. We use it, it works for some kids. Have a couple Eagles a year. Not a badge mill for sure. Some 17 year old Tenderfoots.

Adult Association: Strongly emphasized, works well. Deliberately recruit young adults who have good rapport with kids.

Personal Growth: I never did figure out what this one meant. Yah, our kids grow, and we really care about dem learning, eh?

Leadership: Yah, we're mostly youth run. PLC chooses events, boys plan events, PLs run patrols.

Uniform: Nah. Ever since the PLC really took ownership of meeting plans, we do most of them outside, where the "field uniform" doesn't belong. Usually da guys are pretty good about dragging a uniform shirt out for public events, with some pair of olive-ish pants.

Alright, so not too bad. But still enough violations to be sent to Scouter Jail. You guys are pretty kind, though... maybe I can get by with a fine of a woodchuck bead?

I wouldn't worry too much about the relationship between methods, CNY. Those kinda take care of themselves. Your goal it seems is to build the patrol method in your unit.

1) Make sure the patrols are big enough to be viable on all campouts, even when some members don't show.

2) Make the patrols mixed-age, so that older boys can serve as mentors/leaders, and so patrol competitions of different kinds can be fair.

3) Take Kahuna's advice and blow up your regular summer camp plans. Regular BSA camps with dining halls encourage Personal Growth and individual Advancement, but aren't very good at all on the Patrol Method. Take the boys somewhere where they camp by patrol, cook by patrol, and spend at least half of the day together doing activities by patrol.

4) During #3, and more generally, adopt some form of "patrol points" system... kinda like the Harry Potter books. Start posting patrol points. No need to offer prizes. No need for adult commentary. Just post the points. The rest will take care of itself.

5) At least once per quarter, every patrol should plan its own campout or trip, without the rest of the troop.

6) Use the Adult Association method. Have the adult(s) associated with a patrol get to know the boys interests and strengths, and build on them. Each patrol will then get "really good" at different things based on their interests/strengths, and will develop its own personality and role in the bigger troop. Yeah, the Flaming Tomcats are awesome cooks... they always do the best meals, but the Barney Hunters are the fastest hikers and best at orienteering...

7) Bring duct tape to deal with any adult who ever suggests anything like combining patrols for an outing, or planning food as a "whole troop." Leave them taped up in the woods with some honey spread round to attract da bears. Or give 'em to da Flaming Tomcats for a scouter roast.

Boston Beavah

CNY, you should of course do what you think is right for your son and your family. There certainly are "issues" in your troop, things that I would not consider ideal.

But I gotta be honest, pardner. Ya sound like a candidate for a Bravo TV reality show... "Scout Kids Moms and Dads."

Talk to your son. Ask him honestly what he's learning and enjoying. His scouting experience will never be a clone of yours from 20 years ago, and if you try to make it that you will fail utterly. It has to be HIS. Youth leadership means listening to and letting the youth choose and make mistakes. Listen to your son, let him choose, even if you think it's a mistake. Then relax a bit.

Or choose curtain #3... start a new troop and be SM. Find a supportive committee, and run the program you want. Sounds like your area could use an exemplary troop. As an added bonus you'll develop a "special appreciation" of new parents who come in pointing out your weaknesses, and of how imperfect SMs need the kindness and support of their assistants.

Good luck with it.

Beav

"Our responsibility is to see that the scouting program is delivered to the boys, not to sit silently while the program is ignored and boys are abandoned."

Yah, you need some violin music to go wit dat melodrama, eh?

Come on, BobWhite. CNY visited 9 local troops and found this one to be the BEST. His son is happy in the program and has made good friends. The committee discussion sounded like a good committee discussion, not a micromanagement session. The troop recognizes its weaknesses and is willing to engage in long discussions with a bull-in-the-china-shop newcomer, and even begin to give the newb responsibility.

"Ignored and abandoned" is a bit much, dontcha think?

"It may be that if the great majority of adults aren't following the program, there just might be some reason for that."

There's a great guy on our committee who just got his 50-year pin a few years back. He remembers scouting when he was a boy. Them thar scouts really used boy leadership and patrol method. In the summer, they went out into the woodland 5-6 miles outside of town, and camped. Without any adults. For the whole summer! Occasionally (like once a week) an adult would come out to check on them, or they'd hike in to buy food, or whatnot.

Can you imagine a modern adult even considering such a natural application of youth leadership and the patrol method?

Yah, there's a reason for it, Oak. In the modern age of hyperprotective parenting, youth leadership and the patrol method are extremely countercultural. It takes a lot of huztpah to buck the trend.

Whew, CNY.

I think perhaps the "deep breath, step back" is in order. If you are expecting perfection in every troop you touch, you will always be disappointed.

Sounds like your son is enjoying his Scouting experience, but you are not. The proper response is for him to do more, and you to do less. It'll make you both happier.

Loyalty, Courtesy, Kindness, and Obedience demand that an ASM be a vocal supporter of the SM, even when he or she isn't perfect or even correct. Helpfulness implies that an ASM should step up when their personal skill set can make a contribution. I've never heard of "disgruntled" as a right, but I believe "Cheerfulness" is an obligation.

The Ideals Method and the Scout Law apply even when we're not successful with the other methods.

How do other methods support the Patrol Method? They don't necessarily. The purpose of the Methods is to get to the Goals of Scouting... fitness, character, and citizenship. So the real question is probably more like "How do different units use the Patrol Method to help kids build character, grow more physically and mentally fit, and become better citizens?"

Sure, the methods sometimes work together. Adult Relationships Method includes helping "coach" patrol leaders, being an example to PL's and others, etc. The Uniform Method helps provide outward "signs" of patrol membership through common T-shirts, "colors," and patrol patches. The Outdoor Method puts patrols in an environment where they have to work together for their own comfort, well-being, and fun. Youth Leadership Method is pretty obvious in its relations to patrols. Advancement Method isn't... unless your patrols are mixed-age, so that boys seek advancement opportunities within their patrol, from other patrol members.

I had a hard time understanding CNY'S message when I read it the first two times. Every time he said "leader" I thought of a boy, so I couldn't figure out how the trip could be run by the leaders (boys) with no input from the scouts. LOL.

There's no easy way to train people out of doing things for/to their kids. There's no easy way to have them read a book and understand how to talk with kids as peers, and encourage them to make mistakes (because that shows they have ownership and are trying). There's no good way to explain to people with limited outdoor skills how to run a creative, safe, experiential outdoor program.

It's not our program, or the kids. It's the adults today.

Ahoy Dan K!

You say we haven't had much success with improving leader recruitment. At the same time, you admit that we haven't had much success with improving training / materials / developing a "leader-proof" program that everyone can follow successfully.

The thing is, we've spent a lot more time and $$$ trying to do the latter. And we continue to spend more time and $$$ on curriculum and regulation even though we know, as you admit, that finding better leaders gets us a much bigger bang.

That's just poor economics.

I wonder what would happen if half the $$ spent on curriculum / materials were instead spent on helping CO's recruit, select, and evaluate leaders? I wonder what would happen if half the time spent on discussing regulations for "following the program" were spent on recruiting high quality volunteer adults with a commitment beyond the tenure of their own son?

Beavah

With Juris, I vote in favor of Loosey-Goosey. Maybe I just like the freedom and beauty of a flying goose.

I'm CC in a unit with a good CO relationship. The CO and COR are involved in unit financial oversight, committee member selection, and leader selection and training. Most of our troop ASMs are non-parents (former scouts, CO and community volunteers). In that way, we follow the BSA model better than most units mentioned here.

Aside from that, we're loosey-goosey. Our unit leaders and PLC adapt BSA materials to meet their needs all the time. Two months ago, I sat on a Life BOR for a PL (now SPL) who said "It is so much better here for the 1st-year scouts who are in regular patrols. In the troop I transferred from, we had to be in a new scout patrol and just work on first class. It was really bad... 12 guys who didn't know what they were doing all together, with only this Troop Guide to help." So in that way we don't follow the BSA model, and have happier younger scouts, and older boys with a greater commitment to mentoring.

We don't do camporees; the kids prefer to plan their own outings. The kids do outing budgeting, not the committee. The committee doesn't meet monthly. We don't have a UC. Uniforming is fairly relaxed in-house but pretty good for public events, though you'll never see us camping in dress beige. We don't follow the BSA NCS summer camp example of lecturing kids on rules and regulations for hours at a time. We don't allow FOS at Courts of Honor, which are for the kids. Adult relationships with kids are very strong... it's not unusual for the SM to be doing math tutoring on the side for kids who need it, for the ASM to pay boys to work on his land, etc. We don't do chuck-box and trailer car camping. We tried to use BSA program features for meetings a couple times, and abandoned those as both "too young" and unworkable. Instead, the kids plan and run our meetings by patrol.

We are the largest and most active troop in our town.

If we were faced with a choice between being shoehorned into the BSA model and giving up our charter, we would give up our charter.

Three cheers for loosey-goosey!

Boston Beavah

Woodbadge BobWhite comments that being a scout leader is a challenging but not a difficult task, that requires only attitude and acceptance of the program.

While that's hard to parse syntactically, my point was similar. Good youth leaders come with significant prior knowledge (aptitude) and significant natural inclination (attitude) to work with kids. Curriculum (program) and training are never sufficient to replace these things. At best they can supplement or shore up a weak spot... maybe.

Relying on program / curriculum is never sufficient. You have to find good, capable, enthusiastic people... what B-P called "the right sort of scouter."

In response to Dan's question, I'm not sure what to do with the part-time parents, if that's all you have to work with. They're fine "extra hands," but on their own they're not enough to run a good program.

Boston Beavah

Our educational community has spent 50+ years and some billions of dollars attempting to come up with "teacher-proof" curricula... programs and materials that do not require good people but are still successful.

I think that (with the exception of the commercial promoters) the consensus is that "human-proof" programs are not possible. "Just follow the curriculum" doesn't work. Anywhere. Ever.

Finding good people may seem harder. But perhaps if we put the same energy and money into that as we have into fine-grained analysis of the program we'd show better results.

In 20 years, I've seen:

2 expulsions (marijuana & behavior)

1 suspension/expulsion (repeated bullying)

1 suspension/expulsion (repeated gross safety issues w/behavior problems)

A few other suspensions (behavior/fighting) that turned kids around.

It is hard to do as an adult. Many adults don't care enough about their kids to do things like suspensions when they need to. But if things aren't working, you have to change the environment if the boys (all of them) are going to learn anything.

Each year, we put together an "annual report" for the unit which we provide to all the officers and board members of the chartered org. It features lots of good things, numbers (of kids, of outings, of service hours), financial reports, and challenges. It always leads off with the explanatation that it is a report on the CO's program.

We also do cleanup and service work whenever asked, of course, and some Eagle projects for the CO.

The hardest thing for us has been keeping the communication lines open. It really helps if someone on the unit committee is also on the CO's board or is otherwise "connected" with what is going on. There are a lot of times we could have been of service that we missed, just because nobody at the CO thought to ask.

Interesting discussion.

New and "undistinguished" teachers are helped by being provided a good, highly specified and well developed curriculum. If they follow it. Following the program can move a poor teacher into the lower end of mediocre.

Good and experienced teachers do better when they are provided a good, highly specified and well developed curriculum AND ADAPT IT to the local conditions. That's the difference between a mediocre teacher and an excellent one.

In education, we're pretty sure that curriculum amounts to something like 5% of the variance in outcomes. That is to say, having a good program and following it gets you an added 5%. Under the best circumstances with lots of added resources, maybe 10%. The big effects are from having the right people, and having those people adapt to meet the needs of the kids they have.

So sure, if somebody is new or weak, getting them training to follow the program will help. It's a good start, but it's not a panacea. You might be better off looking for better people (perhaps ones that read books...). Putting your faith in people is a better investment than putting your faith in a program.