Proud Eagle

My OA lodge has been invited to send representatives to accept the E. Urner Goodman Camping Award.

We are planning on sending a group of 2-3 adults and 2-3 youth. We figure this is sort of a once in a lifetime sort of thing. Due to the extreme cost of airfare to Dallas, I think our guys are going to be taking a road trip. They don't plan on being at the meeting other than the dinner to accept the award (that is the only part they are invited to). If anyone has any ideas about what a mixed group of youth and adults could do in the Dallas area at that time I would be open to it.

I personally will not be with the group. I will be attending National Camp School that week. Otherwise I would certainly go.

In my council sheath knives are forbiden on all council properties by council created policies. There is no law against sheath knives, but the council decided that you must agree to not bring a sheath knife to be allowed on/in any council property.

You have a couple of valid points. You do lose a certain level of control at a council camp, or for that matter at any other event beyond unit level (Camporees, Jamboree, high adventure bases, etc). You also don't have a staff all of your own.

The issue of control over your own program is one that I think many camps need to look at how to better address. We are supposed to be there to serve the troop, the patrol, and the Scouts. Many camps seem to do a poor job of offering opportunities for all three of those elements. In the ideal world a summer camp would be a place where they have the best facilities, the best instructors, and the best program OPPORTUNITIES that can be found in your area. The exact nature of each units program would be decided by that unit. In reality however it is quite difficult to run a camp with any thing other than a centralized program.

At the council camp there are ways to ensure the staff being unfamiliar isn't a problem. You can send leaders around to each program area to volunteer to help out for the week (almost always greatly appreciated). You can also encourage your older youth to consider serving on staff.

In any case, I hope that you all are able to continue offering a fun and exciting program for your youth. If your unit likes doing its own camp, that is fine with me. I think the youth in each unit should be able to choose what it is they want to do. It sounds like your guys like doing the troop's camp.

CCC is a pretty nice camp.

You know, I hear the western part of the state has a pretty decent camp too... now what is it called....

(laughs at own joke while everyone else wonders what he is mumbling about...)

Ah, Jambo.

I guess I am going to miss it this year.

I have made both of the two Jambos since I crossed over from Cubs.

In 97 I was a visitor and in 01 I was a troop member.

I had hoped to do 05 as staff.

However my council needs me at camp, and so I will be at camp. Of coarse camp does end on the 23rd of July, so perhaps I could take an end of summer road trip. Eh, who knows.

Too bad Jambo staff has to be there so much earlier than the start date.

All I can say is that I am quite impressed.

Many units are finding it difficult to get enough adult support simply to send the boys to the council camp. It is quite good that you have enough adult support for this.

The key thing, as some others suggested, is to make certain that is adult support, not an adult command structure or something of that sort.

I would very much like to go with a troop doing one of these camps just as an observer to find out what they do and how. Descriptions are great, but until a person has made first hand observations there is no real way to fully understand.

The big question I have is, why not make use of an established council camp? Is it the program? facilities? what is it that makes units want to do their own camp rather than attend a BSA camp? The reason I ask is that perhaps there are things that those of us putting on the program at the council camps need to do to improve things.

I know one of my big things is that camp should not just be a merit badge university for a week. It needs to be more and better. While we can't make the leap all in one year, we are moving towards a more intersting and varied program. We are also implementing some programs to (hopefully) support the patrol method.

Reading the various camp manuals and such, it is quite clear that BSA has a vision for a very dynamic program for summer camp. Its just that it isn't easy to put it into practice.

Oh, one final question, what do you all that do your own camps do about Order of the Arrow requirement for a long term resident camp under the auspices and standards of the BSA? Do you all follow the current BSA camp standards and have a camp inspection conducted?

Go serve on camp staff. Just do it.

If anyone is thinking about being a camp staffer, do it.

If anyone wants to be a camp staffer but for some reason you are looking for an out of council option (your council has its entire staff in place, you simply want new scenery, whatever as long as you are qualified), let me know by private message. I know I could still use a few more people in program staff, and I think the administrative and supports staffs could still use some people too.

Here is what most of the lodges in my section do in regards to the position patch to be used by the lodge chief:

In most councils the lodge chief is made a member of the council's Executive Board. Therefore the lodge chief wears the position patch to go with that position and also wears grey loops.

As a note, I believe it is national policy that councils may have up to two youth members on their executive board. In many councils these positions are occupied by the Lodge Chief and the President of the Venturing Cabinet (or whatever that is called these days).

Miami_Chief, I don't know where your information came from, but I am afraid it is incorrect.

Please take a look at the current edition of the Guide for Officers and Advisers. There is a section titled "Choosing Vigil Honor Candidates" (page 31 & 32 in the version I am looking at) in that section there should be a 13 point list. Take a close look at 11 and 13.

"Approved Vigil Honor candidates must be inducted within one year of national office approval. Otherwise they must be removed from the approved list. Their selection and approval must then be reconsidered with the current year's quota."

"If approved candidates are not inducted, it is very important to notify the director of the Order of the Arrow immediately. Otherwise, they will be considered inducted members of the Vigil Honor, and their petitions will be kept on permanent national file."

At NOAC 2004 I attended a training session on the Vigil Honor. In it the issues of how to handle notifying candidates and dealing with a decline of the honor were discussed. The concensus opinion (strongly backed by the trainers) was that candidates should be informed or asked privately before a call out. That way if they wish to decline it is a private matter rather than becoming an issue of the entire lodge. Also, it was thought that it was easier to decline in private than in public. It was also agreed that there was nothing wrong with offering the candidate the entire year to consider it, but that in most cases if they declined they would not change their mind in that year.

So, the answer is the Vigil must be completed within one year.

If not completed, the national director of the Order of the Arrow must be notified.

They can then be nominated again in the future.

In my area the LDS units seem to have decided that they cannot travel on Sundays. As best as I can tell they don't seem to have a problem being away from home, they just don't travel.

(On the other hand most of the individual members of the LDS church I have known traveled on Sunday just like everyone else when there was some activity such as a school trip.)

In any case, these travel restrictions have made it very difficult for LDS Scout to participate in certain district and council functions, attend summer camp or other major summer activities, and to participate in the Order of the Arrow. I can't recall ever seeing an LDS unit at a camporree. I know we have had a few LDS Scouts join the OA lodge, but most of the LDS units seem to discourage their members from completing the Ordeal, even when that unit asks for an election (which many don't).

So, what are some techniques to employ to better adapt programs and activities to the needs of the LDS Scouts and other Scouts with travel restrictions? How can units that don't traditionally participate in the various district, council, and lodge activities be made to feel welcome?

Obviously there is nothing wrong with certain units choosing to isolate themselves from the larger Scouting family, but on the other hand I think we are all missing out on something when someone chooses to remain apart.

Thoughts anyone?

I certainly am not an expert on these things, and in fact I know very little.

I do know that travel restrictions are not limited to the LDS Scouts. I know many Catholic Scouters that will not participate in an activity if it means missing Mass. While I will sometimes participate in an activity even if it means missing mass (Jambo comes to mind), I always try to find a way to make it to mass when possible.

I must say most of what is required to make a section work properly is contained in the various publications and program materials from the national level of the OA. Anyone going for a section office should read through the Field Operations Guide (FOG) and should probably try to attend a CoC (Council of Chiefs) meeting or two to find out how the section works.

Most of the problems in the Scouting program come from our innability to make the vision set out in the many publications a reality. There is no need to invent the wheel, someone else already did that and wrote a book about it.

As for my lodge, if you look at my profile you can figure it out, I think.

As for a motion to close the floor for nominations, I don't realy know if that motion is in order or not. I have never been a section officer or adviser, so I haven't ever had a reason to know exactly. The FOG makes it quite clear the nominations can only be closed once, and that it must be immediately before the vote is taken. So I don't know if a motion to close the floor was in order or if the floor is simply closed automatically.

I seem to recall that it has been done both ways in the past. I also seem to remember it being done both ways during lodge/chapter functions.

I think it is probably actually the duty of the person presiding over the election to close the floor. If the a motion is made, that would require a vote to close the floor, which seems a bit overly involved.

Robert's Rules of Order anyone?

The FOG only goes so far as to say that a candidate must have his Scout Executives approval in writing in advance of being nominated. As long as that approval was given before he was nominated, it seems to be OK according to the FOG.

The FOG also states that nominations shall be closed only once, immediately before voting for that office. (Chapter 2, Rule IV, B).

In years past the correct paperwork was required by some certain point in the conclave. The theory was this requirement was necessary to give the section chief and adviser time to confirm that the paperwork was complete and the SE had approved the candidate, and that all other requirements were met.

However, last year there was a dispute of some sort and it was decided that the rule about the paperwork deadline may not be in keeping with the FOG. (I personally think it is within the power of the COC to determine what constitutes a reasonable and proper amount of time to certify a candidate, but others apparently don't share that opinion.)

Now, I don't know when our new VC had his papers turned in. As long as they were turned in before he was nominated, I suppose everything was technically done correctly.

On the other hand there is the issue of fundamental fairness. The other candidates for office all turned in their papers and were nominated earlier in the weekend. All other candidates participated in the candidate forum on Saturday night, giving a chance for thorough questioning of them (unlike the Sunday morning meeting where time was very limited). Also, all other candidates provided information to be published in the on-sight newsletter so everyone would know something about them. It seems unfair to everyone involved that someone would run but not participate.

That being said, I don't think the host lodge chief had any intention of running at the start of the weekend. I think he was encouraged to run at some point. I can also easily see how he might not have gotten around to making a final decision until the last minute, after all the host lodge people are quite busy during conclave. So, I place no fault on the new section vice chief.

Instead I must place some blame on the general pattern of section politics. The section seems to trend toward far too much political intrigue, behind the scenes deals, and all sort of stuff beyond the knowledge of ordinary Arrowmen. The outcomes of section elections often seem to be determined well before the lodge members are polled. Also, while I can't confirm it, I am relatively certain most of the chiefs vote according to their own inclinations rather than following the wishes of their lodge members.

I have never been very good at the section politics thing. Mostly because I have never been well enough informed to be good at it. That was true when I was a lodge chief, and it is true now as a lodge adviser.

BENEDICT XVI

19 April 2005

Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum;

habemus Papam:

Eminentissimum ac Reverendissimum Dominum,

Dominum Josephum

Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinalem Ratzinger

qui sibi nomen imposuit Benedictum XVI

Urbi et Orbi Blessing

Dear brothers and sisters,

after our great Pope, John Paul II, the Cardinals have elected me, a simple, humble worker in God's vineyard.

I am consoled by the fact that the Lord knows how to work and how to act, even with insufficient tools, and I especially trust in your prayers.

In the joy of the resurrected Lord, trustful of his permanent help, we go ahead, sure that God will help. And Mary, his most beloved Mother, stands on our side. Thank you.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/elezione/biografia_en.html

Just out of curiousity, how do you handle notify the aquatics staff about medical conditions?

The Safe Swim Defense makes it clear that the person supervising an aquatics activity MUST be aware of any medical conditions that could impact the swimmers. It seems that some sort of list of conditions would need to be provided at least to the Aquatics Director, perhaps some of the other staff as well.

So, how is this done at other camps?

Are there other staffers that should be made aware of certain medical conditions?

Thank you all for the feed-back.

Some of that is in line with what I was thinking, some of it is in areas I had not thought of.

Oh, and yes there are a great many requirements about what has to be served.

Now as for the rest of you that haven't responded, surely someone has some more opinions.

This is an entire forum full of opinionated Scouters and only two have opinions about ways to make summer camp a great experience?

I thought you were condisering putting poly-wool legs on poly-cotton shorts. Sorry, I must have misunderstood you.

I am looking for a few good ideas. I will be once again serving on camp staff this summer, and the camp leadership is attempting to finalise some of our plans. While there are many good ideas on hand already, I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask for some feed back from this esteemed group of Scouters. I am open to any ideas you may have. I have provided some items to think on in case you need something to jump start your grey matter.

To learn more about our current program elements, please see our leaders guide.

http://www.shawneetrails.org/PDF/Summer%20Camp/RCM%202005%20No%20Pictures%20PDF.pdf

Camp Fire Program

We have a Sunday night opening campfire, a Thursday night Parents Night campfire with OA call-out ceremony, and a Friday night awards/closing campfire. Suggestion of any form are appreciated.

Chaplain program/chappel service

On Wednesday night we have a chappel service. In some past years we have had a full time chaplain, but recently we have only had a volunteer chaplain for the chappel service. I am looking for ways to improve this aspect of our camp program and services. I would like to find some way of involving the Chaplain's Aides throughout the week.

Commisioner Services

Ideas?

Scoutmaster/adult activities

We always offer some adult leader training during camp. However we need ways to keep the adults interested and involved during the week. We would like to provide some special opportunities for the Scoutmasters. Many camps offer an SM meritbadge. Any ideas of this sort would be appreciated.

Troop activities

We currently offer some relatively unstructured opportunities for troops in the evening such as use of the aquatics facilities, sand volley ball court, and service projects. Ideas for how to promote units to make use of the opportunities are welcome. Ideas on other unit level activities or competitions are welcome as well.

Patrol competitions/activities

Our Wednesday schedule is devoted to troop, patrol, and individual competition and recreation. Ideas for how to make this an outstanding program are welcome.

Dining hall program

We want the dining hall to be more than just a place for eating. Some sort of meal time program would be welcome. We don't want anything too fancy or involved, but we do want something good.

Food Services

What do you like best and what works best at other camps. We have talked about "family style" serving, but we have traditionally used a cafeteria style model where everyone goes through a central serving line. We are looking for any and all ways to improve the dining experience. We know if we provide good food in good quantity that goes a long way to keeping everyone happy. Suggestions on what foods Scout really want, or really don't want are welcome. We have a menu drafted, but we still have a chance to change if anyone has any good ideas.

While we have a great deal of planning either completed or in progress, we are always open to a good suggestion. If there is anything you know of that works well at camps you have been to, or doesn't work well, please let me know.

We want to offer the best program possible for the Scouts, Scouters, and staffers. Any helpful suggestions or ideas you can offer to make this a reality are welcome.

Special note for those attending our camp this year, you will see many of the same great features of camp program you have come to know and love. You will also find some new ideas being implemented to make camp even better. We (the staff and leadership) will be working hard to plan for and deliver the best camping experience possible.

Early Registration Deadlines.

I know my council requires all registrations be in by April 15 to get the early registration discount. Most other councils and camps have similar early registration discounts. Make certain you get your paperwork and money sent in on time if you haven't already missed the deadline. I would hate to think a bunch of hard earned Scouting money got eaten up on late fees because an adult was slow in filling out paperwork.

Don't forget those new Scouts!

Many Webelos will still be crossing over between now and summer camp. Don't forget to offer to include them in your summer camp experience. These new guys need summer camp as much or more than anyone so make an extra effort to convince your new Scouts and the Webelos that will be crossing over to go to camp. This may require some selling of the idea to the parents as well.

Camp Staff Positions.

Many councils still have positions available on their summer staff. This can range from high adventure bases, to Boy Scout Camp, to Cub Day Camp. If you are interested in serving on staff, contact your local council. If you know someone who would be a good staffer, make the effort to suggest it to them.

Camping Opportunities Still Available

Many camps have not yet been filled. If your unit has not yet made a commitment to go to camp this year, I would strongly encourage you to consider it. There is still time to register your unit at many camps.

Camp Roy C. Manchester, located on scenic Kentucky Lake, is operated by the Shawnee Trails Council. RCM still has openings for units interested in camping and for staff members. We intend to provide a new, improved, dynamic, and exciting program this summer. If anyone is interested in learning more about Camp Roy C. Manchester, feel free to contact me, or to contact the Shawnee Trails Council office in Owensboro, KY.

What exactly are you asking about?

Are you talking about building platforms/floors for BSA wall tents?

If so, you will need to know what size tent you are using, as BSA has several sizes.

I would suggest you contact the BSA Engineering Service. They have plans for many things of that sort on file. I don't know for certain if they have what you need, but they are worth a try.

I don't know the exact contact information for that office, but if you call the main line at the national office I am sure they can either connect you to them or give you contact information.

972-580-2000(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

Hey!

I can bring some pointy sticks if someone else can supply the things to roast on them.

I will be the first to admit the uniform isn't perfect. I could wright a book compaining about it.

However, I don't know of any other solution that would really be better in a universal sense of the word. I can think of many options that would be better in some ways in certain situations. Yet, I can't think of anything that would be better without being worse in some other way.

We could have lower cost, but then we would either have lower quality or have to settle for the risks of sweat shop labor and the like.

We could have a better uniform for outings, but then it wouldn't be as good for meetings and ceremonies.

We could have a uniform for ceremonies and meetings but it would be even more useless for outings.

What we have now is a decent uniform that makes everyone equally happy/unhappy.

We can't make an improvement in one area without making a sacrifice in another.

Oh, there really is only two variants of the uniform, so far as I can tell.

There is a "field" and an "activities" uniform. The field uniform is the official, complete, BSA uniform. The activities uniform is a mix of the official uniform pieces with a shirt and hat selected to be appropriate for the activity. (Troop t-shirts or BSA activity shirts will work.)

There is no A B C D or any other letter.

I have some zip-off pants made of similar material to Scout pants. They are horrible. They type and weight of the fabric causes the zippers to rub. The weight of the fabric requires heavier zippers than most zip-offs, and so they really don't feel very nice.

Zip-offs are fine for very light materials like thin, quick-dry nylon. It isn't such a good idea for most other types of material.

At least that is my experience.

Also, zip-offs need to be a little looser fitting to keep the zippers from becoming uncomfortable.

Finally, the two types of fabric will likely fade at diffrent rates. So pretty soon they legs won't match the shorts. At least I suspect that is the case. If they were the same type of material it might work out.

Humor me by playing along with my little concocted situation:

StarGazerOne suggests that a grouping of stars looks like an elephant.

StarGazerTwo suggests that a grouping of stars looks like an alligator.

Both believe you can find patterns that make up things such as constellations in the starts. However, they completely disagree about which stars make which patterns. Both respect the fact that the stars do make patterns, but they just can't agree on what those patterns are.

Then StarGazerThree comes along and denies that it is possible for stars to contain any particular pattern resembling any particular terrestrial thing. He denies that it is even possible for there to be constellations. He doesn't just say he doesn't see them, he says it is impossible for their to be any.

As you may have guessed, One and Two are believers of some sort. Three is an atheist.

It is rather difficult to think that someone with Three's position could ever really respect the beliefs of others, since he thinks it is utterly and completely impossible for there to be anything to believe in.

The atheists I have met were mostly nice people. Most of them didn't argue much about religion, after all that would be sort of like arguing about the price of fruit when you didn't think fruit was real. However, the atheists I have met almost universally thought that religion was a silly waste of time. On the other hand, I have met a great deal of believers in a variety of faiths (and even agnostics) who had deep respect for the beliefs of others, even though they thought those beliefs were incorrect.

I personally think there are many religions that are the wrong path. However, I understand what faith is about. I understand the basics of having faith in something. Struggling to understand, having your beliefs tested. I can sympathize with people of other faiths. It is sort of like two people taking a hike. They may take different paths, but they both make a journey. We have something in common. On the other hand, the person that denies there is any path to take and so therefore will not make the journey, they really don't understand what it is like to climb the hills, and go down into the valleys, and to rest under the shade of an old tree watching the sun set while birds sing and animals meander about.

I admit that I can't even begin to understand atheism. Most atheists I have know admit they can't even begin to understand faith.

It seems to me if we wish to admit atheists, we will need to expunge all references to God, all idea of encouraging Scouts to seek their path. After all, it would be somewhat hypocritical to ask an atheist to send a Scout on a journey that goes to no-where.

(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

I don't know how to even start answering this question.

To begin with the question is a false dicotemy.

We have no idea if the homosexuals are trained leaders or not. Bob makes no mention of the homosexuals having training or not, yet everyone seems to assume they are trained.

On the other hand, everyone is assuming the untrained leaders are running a poor program. They may have been mentored by excellent trained leaders, have read the relevant materials, maybe even watched all the films, but just never have been qualified as a "Trained" leader.

Also, untrained leaders can become trained leaders.

It is unlikely, though possible, that the homosexual leaders will become... well.... non-homosexual.

Next, we don't know quite what it means that these leaders are homosexual. Does this mean they are emotionally attracted to those of the same sex and want a romatic relationship with them? Does it mean they are physically attracted to others of the same sex and seek such a relationship? Does it mean they are currently engaged in a romantic or physical relationship with another of the same sex? While I would rather not know the answers to those question, I must assume since we know they are homosexual that those items may come into play.

Why exactly do we know these people are homosexual? Are they making a big deal out of it? Sex doesn't really fit in well with Scouting, yet we somehow know these leaders are all homosexual. Quite odd.

So, again, we don't really have enough information to make a choice.

However, why not make a third option sense this argument is based on a logical falisy in the first place. Why not start a third unit with trained leaders who may not all be homosexual?