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Proud Eagle

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Posts posted by Proud Eagle

  1. Most Scoutmaster I have talked with know of it and many have even looked at it. Few have made use of it. If council cares anything about it that would be news to me. It looks like a great little no-brainer of a tool, but we spend more time worrying about what BSA policy says you can't do with the internet than trying to make good use of the internet.

  2. This is a terrible tragedy.

     

    If you ever staff a summer camp at the level of one of the directors, you will get a suprising amount of updates from your Scout Exec on things that have gone wrong elsewhere, news reports forwarded by friends, Scout leaders telling you about things, and even concerned parents, members of the general public, and even media calling about things that have happened somewhere.

     

    Lots of safety stuff focuses on adult leadership, but I wonder, and I am just thinking hypothetically, if perhaps the real focus for safety ought to be on the youth?

     

    Maybe one of the questions we should consider standard in our planning is:

     

    If any one of our patrols gets cut off from adult leaders in this activity can it survive?

     

    I bet Kudu would have some ideas about this idea.

     

    I once had the experience of having all the participants in a high adventure outing get seperated from the program staff in such a way that their location was unknown and there was no ready method of communication while the last light of the day was fading. We eventually found everyone safe and sound. When the staff got into a fix (mechanical problems) and had to stop the participants simply followed the plan of the day and went exactly where they were supposed to be for the night. That was a wake up call on a lot of levels. As it worked out the biggest problem was coming up with a plan B for that night's meal. That being the early days of cell phones, the clever idea was hit upon of pulling the med forms and calling people back home to try to get a cell number for a participant. Talk about a delicately phrased conversation. Eventually we got a number of someone who had their phone on and had signal. That was a huge relief. I tried to suggest a formal after action review on the incident, but that never happened, at least so far as I know.

     

    That is one of my top six times I got seriously worried about something while on camp staff. The others being a fish hook in an eye (a bit of surgery and he was fine, later in the week was even back teaching has buddy how to cast properly), a severed toe(ended a kid's soccer ambitions), the time we thought my next door neighboor from back home was lost (found in wrong shower house just before sounding alarm), the time boat sank while a class was in it (rescued by a fisherman), the time a kitchen volunteer collapsed (she lived, barely, should have been a pink folder incident, but we had no SE and area didn't want to deal with it) and a major gas leak (lead to replacement of propane tanks, thankfully no big boom, did contribute 400 gals of propane to global warming).

     

    Don't kid yourself folks, this Scouting stuff has risk even when everyone does the right thing and everything goes right. If someone messes up or you have bad luck those risks start going up rather quickly. There is a fine line between manageable and acceptable levels of risk, and reckless gambles.

  3. In all seriousness, I think the idea of heads of chartering institutions (that is what IR indicates?) better understanding what Scouting is, how their organization views Scouting, and setting out their own goals more clearly would be a good idea. Way too many times all sorts of assumptions are made and things are not clearly communicated. I suspect 8/10 organizations think of the BSA units they charter morre as outside groups they let in, rather than owned and operated parts of their own program. Of the others, 1/10 think everyone in their unit is part of their organization and agrees with their institution, while perhaps the last 1/10 understand what is going on.

     

    I have no idea what the Scouts in my troop believe, or what our charter org thinks regarding people of very different faiths. Who knows, they may even think I am one of their members since I am the CC, but that certainly isn't the case.

     

    As to Catholic units, there is no reason they could not be open units, but there are some limits to that too it would seem. After all the Catholic Church has a particular understanding of its relationship to other Christians, to Jews, to Moslems, and to pagans, atheists, etc.

     

    I don't think in that guy's case his unit was chartered by a Catholic Church, but that isn't quite clear.

     

    p.s.

    I really didn't know what part of the forum to mention this article in. If it should have gone elsewhere, I am sure some sort of moderator will move it.

  4. It sounds to me like the beef of the guy with the complaints on the comments thread was really that his charter organization didn't back him and some of the others up in their position. For some reason he blamed the BSA for the fact that his CO was open to someone he considered a spiritual danger to his kid. No one should in good conscience put their child in what they believe to be deadly danger for light reasons, so in a way I get the guys point.

     

    There are a lot of people who have the idea that because BSA uses the wording "duty to God" that is meant in the particular, monotheistic or Judeo-Christian way, and I suspect a poll of both BSA members, alumni, and the general public would show this to greater or lesser degrees. I think it likely that the earliest drafts of the Scout Oath did in fact have that meaning in mind.

     

    Over-all I think the article is good press for BSA.

     

    And I will let the Inquisition remark go, but just know that it was logged by a secret Vatican computer that records all electronic communication globally and at any time Opus Dei may start looking into your background and you should probably keep your eyes open for albino monks from now on.

  5. Don't do anything based on some numbers game. Just don't.

     

    In the long term that is doing the wrong thing for a not very good reason. If you are worried about taking a hit on membership and looking bad, don't sweat it. Fix the glitch, take the hit in numbers, then work on making the unit and its program better, which will in turn put you in a better position for long-term recruiting and retention. Sometimes a little short-term pain makes for long-term gain. Plus, you have to pay the fees on these no-good-so-and-sos from now till doomsday if you get yourself stuck in one of those numbers games traps. Vote them off the island, say goodbye to the weakest link, cull the herd, do what must be done.

     

    Otherwise good advice it sounds like.

    I am glad I don't have your issues, though brother I do sypathize as I am a relatively new CC of a troop with some issues of its own.

    Good luck.

  6. As a member of a Catholic Committee on Scouting I should mention these just in case someone looks at this thread. Catholic Scouts should pursue the particular Catholic religious emblems and info on this can be found at the National Catholic Committee on Scouting http://www.nccs-bsa.org or the Catholic Committee on Scouting of the diocese (office of youth ministry usually) or sometimes the local parish. The Catholic programs are not coordinated through PRAY. The National Catholic Committee for Girl Scouts and Camp Fire: http://www.nccgscf.org/index.htm has programs for those programs.

     

    I know several of the protestant faiths have essentially the same programs and emblems through PRAY but do require some learning about the particular faith of the Scout. Others Christian groups have their own programs. Non-Christian groups tend to have seperate, particular programs.

     

    There is no reason you can't introduce the topic of religious emblems to the entire den and all parents, let everyone know what is out there and where to go for info, and let them know that BSA encourages these programs. For those who are interested in working on these, some may need to be directed to their own programs, but some basic support will certainly help them. For those who may be working on essentially the same program, it may perhaps be possible to conduct part of it in a group setting with the denomination specific parts on their own. (I have heard of ministers approving of this at times, but this isn't the norm. More likely they will work with their parents and clergy or perhaps in a small group all of the same faith.)

     

    As the den leader, your best bet is to provide information on these programs, help each family find the right program for them, help them find the needed resources, and perhaps even check if there is an established counselor for the programs there is interest in (through the local council and its contacts). You can then offer recognition and congratulations to those who complete the program.

  7. Industrial competitiveness is a complex issue.

     

    To a very large degree the falling behind of American industry was a combination of circumstance and self-inflicted injury. History is a very important part of this picture. You really have to look at when America industrialized vs when other countries did, the cycles of rebuilding, etc with a particular focus on both world wars, the depression, and the post-war period. To make it way over simplified, the US came on-line as an industrial power after Europe did, thus we had newer, more innovative ways of doing things (this is more than just tech, it is business practices, government, labor agreements, natural resources, the whole package) that could compete very well in a world where the demand for industrial products was greater than the total supply. Fast forward and the US dominates due to being spared the worst of the world wars and making itself the arsenal of democracy. The trouble was in the post-war period our entire system was exhausted. Our industries were largely worn out by the war and hadn't had sufficient capital investment since pre-Great War other than a brief period in the 20s. Our population and labor pool experienced a major shift as did our politics, all the while we still had in place a great many Depression and War related rules, regulations, and practices that were not very market efficient. Our corporate, labor, and government leaders basically assumed we were the natural dominators of the world economy and would always be so.

     

    Next thing we know the devestated countries of the world are rebuilding using newer technologies plus everything else about their post-war systems was generally more modernized than ours. Thus it wasn't long before these countries were real competitors, and then just about the time we started to notice this, the 3rd world started to really industrialize, thus meaning that there would no longer be an entire planet relying on only US and European industrial output.

     

    To my mind the biggest issues are innovation and capital. We must become more flexible, efficient, responsive, and innovative at every level. Our industries that were prone to collapse largely have, now it is time to rebuild with a fresh approach that can allow us to make real progress. There is danger of making the wrong choices and making things worse, but this is the great thing about a free market, many approaches can be tried at once. As to capital, we must focus on long term investment, not short term speculation. We must understand that savings and investment may lead to delayed gratification, but greater gratification in the end. The economy must be less consumer driven, less profiteering driven, and more driven by sound investment.

     

    I could go into a lot of particular ideas and theories, but just a few other things that must be mentioned:

    1. Regulation must be changed not to decrease safety, but rather to allow innovation. Most regulations are coopted by big established interests to protect their position thus making market entry and innovation difficult. This must change to an approach with a playing field that is fare to the innovators trying new things and the small up and coming players.

    2. The tax system must change so consumption is not the default choice and so that American goods don't incur a tax penalty. American goods sent to Europe face an average 19% extra tax that European goods sent here don't, and this is a result of the European VAT vs our own tax systems. Other examples are nearly endless.

    3. We need both fair and free trade. Currently we let the deck be stacked against us on one hand, and then get into one-sided free trade agreements on the other. We need to get access to markets for our products and sources of materials we need while leveling the playing field. Lefty sounding ideas like international treaties on wages, labor, environment, etc could help as long as there were strong verification procedures and so long as we didn't once again let ourselves be had in the negotiations.

    4. Externalities must be considered. Buying the cheap Chinese junks saves you money today, but how much does it cost you when your kid can't get a decent job? etc. There are no free lunches, there is an opportunity cost to everything, and there are unintended consequences to virtually everything.

  8. The website InsideCatholic.com recently carried a rather positive article about Boy Scouts and teh 100th Anniversary.

    "Raising Men: 100 Years of the Boy Scouts of America" by Chuck Piola

     

    http://www.insidecatholic.com/feature/raising-men-100-years-of-the-boy-scouts-of-america.html

     

    In the comments on the article there is mostly positive feedback, but at least one person had some very deep seated objections to the BSA because they do not think it takes "duty to God" seriously due to an incident involving a unit they were once a leader for.

     

    In any case feel free to check it out, comment on it here or there.

  9. The Shawnee Trails Council and all Scout councils in Kentucky will be holding a joint Camporee in the Fall of 2010. There is a naming contest in process (entries due this month) since BSA won't allow anything other than Jambo to use any variation on 2010 Jamboree or Centennial Jamboree.

     

    The date has been set for, I think, October 2010. The event will have activities for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturers, Sea Scouts, and perhaps Explorers. It is expected that at least 25,000 will attend, since both the Lincoln Heritage Council (Louisville) and the Bluegrass Council (Lexington) have pledged 10,000 participants each. (Those numbers are not at all unrealistic, Lincoln Heritage has conducted several council events in the past that were near the 10k mark.)

     

    This will be the largest Scouting event ever in Kentucky so far as I know. There is some talk that it may even expand to the point of being second only to National Jamboree for centennial celebrations, but we don't have anything like the numbers in the big councils to draw from, so we shall see.

     

    It is my understanding that the Shawnee Trails Council was asked to take the lead on Cub Scout programing for the event, while Bluegrass and Lincoln Heritage would be doing Boy Scout and Venturing programs (I don't remember which will do each). Personally I would have preferred that STC be given the Boy Scout program assignment, since that is the closest thing we have to a strong point, and it is also my personal area of expertise. Also, I once again was forced to voice my objections to including Cub Scouts in a Camporee since that clearly does not fit with the age appropriate activities chart from the guide to safe scouting.

  10. No, this is not a big deal, it is not completely black and white, and common sense (and any local interpretation made by those in proper authority) should rule the day.

     

    That said, I do not wear my sash at Courts of Honor. If I was invited to one in my capacity as the Associate Chapter Advisor (or any of the other positions I held in the past) I would certainly wear the sash.

     

    Let us consider what a Court of Honor is for. Its purpose is a formal recognition for awards, advancements, etc that have been earned by unit members. Ordinarily this means wearing the most complete version of your current awards. Thus Scouts and Scouters would be justified in wearing the medals for awards. Also, wearing the Merit Badge sash is certainly appropriate to display all of those awards that a Scout has earned. Now some will say that the OA sash was also earned, but I would dispute this. The OA membership is not earned in the same sort of way (and this goes to the nature of the award, not just the method of selection), and it has already been presented in a formal fashion in an event that is set apart from the troop. Thus I will certainly wear my Eagle medal to a COH, but I do not wear my Vigil Honor sash. Now, all that being said, if a troop chooses to recognize those scouts who have recently become OA members, or completed Brotherhood, or received other OA awards at its own COH as an additional recognition, I would certainly say the troop has that right and also has the right to request such individuals wear the sash for that purpose.

     

    Finally, a key point that the OA sash makes is that of service. At National Jamboree if someone is seen wearing an OA sash it is assumed they are part of the OA service corps staff. Similarly, at district and council events someone with a sash on will likely be taken as service corps member and quite likely tasked with things to do in that capacity. So if you show up to a Scouting event wearing your sash, don't be surprised if someone asks you to take the trash out or something of that sort.

  11. There is an appropriate and inappropriate degree of help with these sorts of things. I did all of the project planning related paperwork for my Eagle, but when it came to the post project part, I did ask my mother to help a bit with preparing the final presentation materials. That being said, she certainly didn't write any of the content or go get signatures for me or anything like that. (On the other hand the Court of Honor she had a bit more to do with...)

     

    In any case, I doubt anything will stop these people. Around here we might stop something like this since the Eagle BOR is done at the district level, but we might or might not know to ask the right questions to spot something like this, and then there is always the possibility of the kids being smart enough to cover for it on the fly.

     

    I would say the real problem is "Scout Spirit". If I were their SM I would not sign off on that under these conditions. They are not living the Oath and Law if they are willing to get Eagle by hook or crook, and they certainly are not being supportive of their troop, or even giving a good attitude. The SM should give them something of a "shape up or ship out" talk.

     

    In any case, not much you can do, other than politely ask pointed questions and make suggestions.

  12. I think the answer to the question is "never" in the way the question was posed, but "sometimes, under the right circumstances" if it had been posed another way.

     

    That being said, a scout leader should never strike another leader, parent, or especially Scout in anything other than physical self defense.

     

    Now, there were plenty of times I have felt the need to deliver a friendly jab to the shoulder (not a serious blow), or smack to the back of the head over something that was said or done. This was always in the context of friends, and while it may not have been the best idea it always seemed to work out.

     

    In another case someone once made a joke that involved throwing salt at me and saying I had been "a SALT ed" to which my reply was a hit to the face and the words, "no, that was assault". Not exactly a proud moment, and it wasn't much of a hit, and no harm was done (we both laughed about it, later), but it was not something I would do again.

     

    One of the few times anyone ever struck me, was my freshman year of high school. I was riding the bus to the YMCA with other students, and a rather large (think football player, not biggest loser) girl was the subject of some sort of joke by a friend of mine. She proceeded to lift him from his seat by the neck and began strangling him one handed. About the time he was turning purple she said something stupid, which caused me to crack up. When she realized I was laughing AT her and not WITH her, she dropped my friend and then delivered a more forceful smack to the face than I knew was possible as she stormed back to her seat. I think my friend probably deserved a smacking, but he certainly didn't deserve to be choked. The finger marks on his neck still hadn't gone away when we left the YMCA that afternoon.

     

    End of random rambling.

  13. Thank you for the quick reply. I will think on the matter and be back again tonight, but here is brief reply.

     

    We don't have a UC. (Well, maybe on paper, but...) The DC has not been doing the job this year, the ADC has been trying to do as much as he can, but a lot of things have slipped through the cracks. The DE does what she can, but she is only one person.

     

    You are right that the DE should have been contacted before now.

     

    I agree completely that finding leadership is the critical first step, the problem is who and how?

     

    I agree with your second point.

     

    I agree with your third. So far as I know I am the only person to take part in any training in the last several years.

     

    Your fourth point is also on target. The Cub pack has asked for help, even suggested opportunities, but not been given any (to the point they had apparently complained to our DE several times about it, as I found out last week).

     

    Aw yes, eating an elephant. It is certainly possible if done one bite at a time, but I suspect it will require some sauce to cover up the taste and some antacid to deal with the heart burn in this instance.

     

    On the final point, I am certainly open to examining the way I serve the youth of Scouting, but currently the one option that is not open to consideration is being a Scoutmaster. For more info on my current and past Scouting involvement see this thread Returning Member

     

    (This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

  14. I currently serve as the Assistant Scoutmaster of a small troop (7 active Scouts, with a few more registered). The unit is going through some tough times and I would appreciate any advice. I will try to provide enough information to give you a picture of the situation.

     

    The troop lost another Scoutmaster back in the spring and has been operating on the efforts of a few parents and leaders and its existing momentum to continue on. The troop has continued to meet, conduct monthly activities, and sent a group of Scouts to summer camp in conjunction with another troop. Currently the troop is conducting its annual Christmas tree sale fundraiser and is thus not meeting or having other activities until after the holidays. The troop's committee chairman has experienced changes in his job situation and has for months been out of the state traveling on business far more than in it. The COR works shifts that keep him from being directly involved in much. The committee is nothing more than whatever group of parents happen to show up and when a "parents' meeting" is called.

     

    The troop does have monthly program plans, but its meetings have no particular plan. The troop has largely abandoned the use of the uniform. The youth are not given a true opportunity to lead the troop and are usually relegated to leading the opening, closing, and certain tasks on camp-outs. No other leaders are trained (maybe youth protection, but I would not bet on that).

     

    The unit has a good long-term relationship with its chartering organization, however that relationship is quite distant at the moment. Very few (if any) of those currently involved in the troop are members of the Methodist church that charters the troop. There are essentially no activities or events involving both the church and troop.

     

    During the final meetings of November and the final "parents' meeting" talk began of the possibility of not rechartering in February, and exploring the option of merging with another unit. The parent/committee member who has been serving as the "acting scoutmaster" in this period has made it clear he can not continue to do as much due to commitment to family, job, and being the head of a youth soccer league.

     

    There is a very strong and active pack with the same chartering organization (the pack was last year's number one popcorn seller for the council with over 20k in sales). However, despite the efforts of its leaders, the troop has not established any sort of relationship with the pack. The next group of webelos are likely going to transfer into other troops, despite the fact the pack leaders are not comfortable with those other units either.

     

    So, it would seem that a troop with 358 months of tenure, dozens of Eagle Scouts, hundreds of nights of camping, and the most stable and solid record of providing a quality Scouting program over the long term in my town may now have finally reached the end of the road. It looks quite possible that come February we may have a 30th anniversary "celebration" and case the unit's colors and fade into history.

     

    I am not at all happy about the prospects of our current Scouts should the unit fold. I suspect they would not remain together for long, and I don't see any of the other troops being a very good fit for some of them. While one other unit is very laid back and I like its leaders, it doesn't seem the parents are at all interested in that unit. Another troop has recently been restarted (again) with a new group of 13 first year scouts with more to come next year. It has very focused and dedicated leadership, but its leaders have made it clear that while our scouts are welcome to join their troop, it should be understood they would be joining the troop "as is" and should fully accept its current leadership, program, and policies. Its leaders are very set in doing things in their own particular and unique ways and it is unlikely they would make any adjustments to better serve a mixed group of older scouts. The final troop in town has a new and capable Scoutmaster, has a similar history to ours, but has been kept on life support by the district commissioner for the last 5 years or so with barely enough to recharter even keeping inactive scouts on the charter, and with some long period of very minimal activity.

     

    After this months roundtable I made certain to take the time to speak with our DE about this matter. It was the first she had heard of any problem at all. She said she would make a call to the acting scoutmaster.

     

     

    Can the troop be saved?

     

    Should the troop be saved?

     

    If so, how?

     

    If not, what would be the best approach to finding a new Scouting home for the youth?

     

     

     

    As for myself, if the troop folds, I don't know what I will do for a Scouting home. I am not particularly comfortable with the idea of joining any of the current troops. I wish I was able to take the Scoutmaster position, and I have been asked to do so, but circumstances in my life make that totally impossible at the moment.

  15. I need some help and advice for creating a training session for the council's upcoming University of Scouting. I have been asked to create and conduct a session entitled "Troop Program Planning" described as "How to help Patrol Leaders plan fun and effective troop meetings and activities" and to last 50 minutes. It is being offered to adult boy scout leaders.

     

    I am searching for the best references, training aids, materials, ideas, and concepts to use in this session.

     

    I need to put together a syllabus/lesson plan, any materials to be distributed, visual aids, etc.

     

    Your assistance would be greatly appreciated.

  16. Hello fellow Scouts and Scouters,

     

    I have been away from the forum for a very long time, but I decided to return at long last. In my previous period of activity I was a good bit less mature, and I probably said some incorrect, ignorant, stupid, or even offensive things at times. Hopefully we can all forgive and forget.

     

    In any case, I am here mostly seeking some help and advice on a few issues, but also to offer my own limited experiences. I will provide you all with a brief history of my Scouting involvement.

     

    I was a member of Pack 50 at Holy Name of Jesus Catholic Church starting as a Tiger Cub and finishing as a Webelos II, including earning the Arrow of Light.

     

    I then became a member of Troop 280 at Chapel Hill United Methodist Church and eventually became an Eagle Scout in 2002 and I currently serve as Assistant Scoutmaster.

     

    I have also been active in White Horse Lodge of the Order of the Arrow starting with my Ordeal in 1999, Brotherhood in 2000, chapter offices including treasurer, vice-chief and chief, lodge committee chairmanships, Lodge Chief in 2002, Vigil Honor in 2003, Founder's Award in 2004, Lodge Advisor in 2005 and 2006, and currently Associate Chapter Advisor.

     

    I have also been a part of the Boy Scout resident camp staff of Camp Roy C. Manchester on Kentucky Lake. My positions included archery instructor in 2004, Program Director in 2005, Camp Commissioner in 2006, Program Director in 2007 & 2008. I attended National Camp School in 2005 and I served on the Council Camping Committee from 2005 through 2007.

     

    I am currently also a member of the Diocese of Owensboro Catholic Committee on Scouting, the District Advancement Committee where I frequently sit on Eagle Boards of Review, and the council's 2010 Jamboree planning committee.

     

    I was a "Brave Beaver" of SR-918 with Camps Roy C. Manchester and Wildcat Hollow serving as Gillwell.

     

    My participation in national programs includes the 2001 National Jamboree as Senior Patrol Leader of Troop 1626, crew leader of Philmont trek 619-E-01, National Order of the Arrow Conference in 2000, 2002, 2004, and 2006, and National Conservation and Leadership Summit in 2007.

     

    Summer camps I attended as a youth or adult include Old Ben, Daniel Boone, Roy C. Manchester (including the high adventure sailing program now known as Aquabase), Wallwood, and Skymont. I have also visited many others during Order of the Arrow Conclaves in SR-6N.

     

    In the non-Scouting areas, I was born and raised in Henderson, Kentucky. I went to the local parochial school for K-8, then public schools for high school (2002 graduate). I then attended the University of Louisville in 2002 and 2003, initially studying engineering but then political science, while also participating in Army ROTC. Then in 2005 I resumed my studies at Henderson Community College and completed an Associate of Arts in 2006. After that I transferred to the University of Southern Indiana in Evansville, IN where I pursued a B.S. in Economics and Political Science. I am currently unemployed and looking for a job.

  17. Sorry everyone. I just needed a place to vent a bit.

     

    On days I felt like this at while working at camp, I would let it all out in a nice clean scream like they taught us at NCS.

     

    However, at the moment this is as close as I can get.

     

    so...

     

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

     

    OK, that helped a little.

     

    Thanks guys. Sorry for indulging myself on everyone else's time.

     

    Oh, and while I am not exactly a regular in the first place, don't expect to see me around much for a while. The "real life" part of my scouting activities have become a bit more complicated and less pleasant lately.

     

    I wish everyone the best of luck with all their Scouting adventures.

     

    Just remember, the best things in Scouting go on at the unit level, in the great outdoors. Meetings, politics, personalities, none of that really matters if just one Scout is having even the smallest of Scouting's adventures. With luck that thought will allow me to keep seeing the silver lining of any dark clouds that come near my favorite camp site or newest wilderness trail.

  18. I have been told by a member of the local council professional staff that some changes in the way DEs are evaluated is in the works.

     

    Apparently growth in units will be considered of lower importance than growth in members.

     

    Also, the new system apparently includes a way to measure, and reward, retention.

     

    So, perhaps BSA has finally decided to do what the volunteers have long been hoping for?

  19. ASM59,

     

    Keep in mind there may be a method to the madness of the Council Advancement Chair. There are times when getting different answers from different people is caused by the job they hold and the responsibilities it covers.

     

    The council advancement chair was not looking at this from the perspective of unit level action, I think. I would say he was looking at it from the standpoint of council level actions, such as Eagle BOR. If some uncertainty about an Eagle candidate being active came up at the BOR, it would probably be settled by checking their membership status. After all, at that point the SM has already signed off on Scout spirit.

     

    The District Advancement Chair, I think was trying to answer the question in a way that would actually be applicable at the unit level.

     

    Use good judgment in these things. Set out clearly, up front, what you expect of your Scouts and your youth leaders. Hold them to those expectations. I don't think anyone would fault you for that, even if they disagree with you.

  20. A few points need to be made, I think.

     

    These are not in order of importance, or in order of appearance in the thread, just in random order.

     

    The flag of the United States was officially established by the Continental Congress on 14 June 1777. The United States Constitution was signed on 17 September 1787. The Bill of Rights, which is often what people remember about the Constitution, was not ratified until 1791. The flag has outlasted the Continental Congress that created it. The flag could easily outlast the present constitution. The principles and ideals of the nation are older, deeper, and more sacred than any mere legal document created by our government. The flag is a symbol of those ideals and principles. The Constitution also attempts to express those ideals, though in a vastly different manner.

     

    The idea that what is legal or approved by parents should be a good enough standard for us and all Scouts is, I think, a rather empty idea. The standard we should strive for is the Scout Oath and Law. Many things that are legal violate that oath and law. Some parents even permit things that violate the oath and law. Our purpose is to create citizens of character who are capable of making ethical decisions over the course of a lifetime. If all we have as a standard is the legal, parental, and religious obligations of each individual then we have no uniform or unifying set of Scouting ideals. In each situation we should hold ourselves and our fellow Scouts and Scouters to the highest expectations, whether those be set by the Oath and Law, by the parents of a Scout, or by the government. (Don't forget that the law allows many things that BSA does not. The law should not be the high ideal we shoot for. Rather it should be the low bar we must clear.)

     

    On the issue of flag burning, it is seen by many as being a direct attack on the symbol of this nation and its ideals. How anyone can simultaneously promote the principle of free speech while burning a symbol of that same ideal is rather mind boggling to many. Attacks on symbols are in many cases the closest anyone can come to a direct, open attack on the things they symbolize. While a Scout burning a flag as a protest does not necessarily indicate that they have renounced or repudiated the ideals that Scouting and this nation are built upon, it could certainly be interpreted that way. Also, keep in mind that at least a few people in our nation's history have literally died to protect the flag itself from harm.

     

    I personally don't like the use of "G-d" because it could be mistaken as the abbreviation for a pair of words that we certainly don't want. That being said, I certainly respect those who treat the name of God with such reverence that they will not write or speak it in vulgar circumstance. And yes, this forum could quite easily be classified as vulgar, depending on what definition of the word you use. (n.b. this particular use of the word has nothing to do with cursing!)

     

    Next, as for the BOR, we should be mindful of the fact that many a confused teenager has done something stupid out of a combination of irrational enthusiasm for an idea and ignorance of such truth as may contradict that idea. Burning a flag in protest should not be taken lightly, but neither should it be the subject of a zero tolerance policy.

     

    Finally, the cartoon protests need to be addressed. The cartoonists were exercising their legitimate right to free speech. It is open to debate if this was a wise use of that right. After all, as Victor Davis Hanson pointed out, Salman Rushdie was the "canary in the mine" on Muslim reaction to western exercise of free speech. It is worth noting that all liberty is predicated on a moral or just use of that liberty. The Muslims certainly have the right to peaceful protest. They may express their disagreement in any number of ways. However, the violence, death, and destruction that has been witnessed of late; and the repeated threats to life, limb, liberty, and property made by the protesters can not be excused nor should it be overlooked. The protests are not the spontaneous, undirected acts some claim them to be. Certain agitators encouraged the protests and other contemptible types in certain government and religious establishments have exploited the situation for their own reasons.

     

    I do not think one has to favor government censorship to think that we must exercise our rights in a reasonable and ethical manner. That is a sort of false dichotomy.

     

    (Corrected the mistaken use of a homonym.)(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

  21. If I were you I would want to speak to the council climbing director. That is an individual who has been National Camp School certified as a BSA Climbing Director, and appointed by the council to oversee all climbing activities within the council.

     

    That person will be able to give you correct and current safety information, any rules or regulations your council may impose on climbing, and also perhaps make a determination about this particular event.

     

    I should note that as of this year (2006), all councils are REQUIRED to have a Climbing Director. If they do not that council may not conduct any climbing activities or programs, either at summer camp or year-round. (At least that is my understanding of the issue.) This is essentially the same as requirements that had previously existed for COPE.

  22. We need more information to be able to come up with a proper response. I can think of all sorts of extenuating circumstances. I can also think of a bunch of lame excuses.

     

    However, I will share a little thing I have learned over the last year or so:

     

    Promise little and then keep those promises. Don't promise big things. Don't promise things that may not happen. Only promise those things you are totally certain you can and will make happen.

     

    I think Southwest airlines operates on a similar philosophy. Set the expectations very low, then exceed them by a wide margin.

     

    I have a tendency to want to promise things that I may not be able to deliver on. That has caused me more than a few problems. So, I am trying not to do that any more. (Though I am still working on it.)

  23. The OA issue is a bit uncertain.

    See this link for more info:

    http://www.oa-bsa.org/qanda/qa-08.htm

    I would take that to mean that for it to be counted for OA, it must meat BSA resident camp standards. My understanding is that even a trek at Philmont does not qualify since it is not resident camping, but is a high-adventure trek.

     

     

    As for the answer given by a particular DE in a particular council, that is all nice and such but it doesn't hold any particular weight in any other place or time.

     

    I personally hope the efforts of these volunteers succeeds. However, they need to be given realistic information about the challenges involved in running a BSA resident camp.

     

    One final note, some SEs do at least make the rounds at camp. At RCM this past summer our new SE made at least a weekly appearance and took the time to make himself available to unit leaders on camp. Several weeks he greeted units during Sunday check in. In councils where the camp is close to the office this may not seem like much, but in our case it is about a 3 hour drive each way. (One night I was told after campfire he showed up and watched the campfire program and left without my ever knowing he was there. Don't know if that is the case or not, but that is what at least one leader related to me. I assume if so he was probably just passing through the area in any case and stopped in.) Down at Skymont a few years ago their SE cooked the steaks for the SM dinner. So there are a few that still know the importance of summer camp.

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