Proud Eagle

You are going to have to change a lot of stuff to get the textile industry back to the US. To do so in a way that it can compete on price will be even more difficult. It isn't impossible, but not at all easy. You basically need to reinvent the entire economic order and much of the government structure to do that. Good luck with that plan.

Also, official inflation numbers are a bit questionable, to put it mildly.

Interesting point, the official inflation story says that today's dollar is worth only 1/50th what one was a hundred years ago. Keep that fact in mind when you read the prices of things listed in the 1911 reprint of the handbook.

Why in the world did you need to put the OA flap on with velcro? Do your dues lapse frequently enough you need to be able to go flap off when you aren't paid up?

Could part of the problem be that Scouting is seen as an LDS things in your area?

I know this isn't politically correct, but it seems that when an activity becomes associated (at least in people's minds) with one particular church people from other backgrounds become less interested.

Maybe you need to find out if that is one of the issues. In only mention it because you say there are 3 LDS packs and only your one non-LDS pack, so I am guessing this is a heavily LDS area. (I had to look up what Awana was, I had never heard of it, but once I saw the age groups I have seen mention of those on a few posters and the like in places we use for district functions, apparently Awana has "borrowed" a few ideas from Cub Scouts including having a "grand prix" aka pinewood derby and even has an age group called "Cubbies"). Sounds like this Awana group is specifically built to be an evangelical answer to Cub Scouts.

So you have tapped the sports as best you can and tried the churches, how about other community groups? The American Legion, VFW, Kawanis, Lions Club, etc. all offer a place to make a pitch to potential parents and grandparents. At the Cub level the adult buy-in often makes as much difference as the kids.

Don't worry about starting the fire. I am sure there is some budding arsonist in the crowd willing to lend us a light.

I have considerable sympathy for Kudu's position, though I suspect we are far from being in full agreement.

That being said, I think the current BSA program also does much good for many boys and is run by people of good will. It just happens that the road to hell is also paved with good intentions and that I am rather acutely aware of what some of the limits and down sides to our current program are as well.

Now, if we were to test two first class scouts, one from BSA of 2010, the other from Baden-Powell's British SA of 1910, on a few basic Scout skills, which do we think would do better?

Let us have a test of the six basic knots, some simple lashings, finding directions with and without a compass, using a map, building a fire with flint and steel, maybe some basic test of observation? What odds would you lay?

As to the Cub Scout program, I have rather mixed feelings about it. I understand very well why a Cub program of some sort was as natural of a development as boys taking an interest in ideas of military Scouting. Yet, it must be remembered that the core of what is Scouting is the Boy Scout program. All else is a development or outgrowth from that core. The sad fact is often the Boy Scout program is considered entirely secondary to the great things that are Cub Scouts and Venturing (which is afraid even of the words "Scout" and "Scouting" and certainly wants to be kept apart from those childish ideas in the Scout Oath and Law, having instead a much more mature 1990s set of ideas that will certainly never sound dated and will certainly never sound like the product of a committee or marketing firm.)(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

Burn all the heretics!

Or is that supposed to be witches?

I forget.

In any case, we have this lovely stake and pyre all set up, so we may as well burn something.

If you say to someone, "I am sorry" but you are not, you have lied, thus owing them an honest apology for the first offense and an honest one for the second offense of lying.

If you say, "I appeciate this gift" and you in fact think it is useless junk and are insulted by it, then again you have lied and owe an apology.

In polite society why lie to each other constantly as part of social convention and think it is virtuous because of those social conventions. These polite lies, or polite fictions, are in fact part of what greases the skids of civil society. None the less these things remain false.

Basic Christian moral theology holds that you may not do evil that good may come of it. The ends do not justify the means. At all. Ever. Rather the means and the ends must both be good.

From a Catholic point of view, the reminds me of confession and contrition. We distinguish two type of contrition, perfect and imperfect. Perfect contrition is motivated purely by love of God. Imperfect contrition may be motivated by lessers things such as fear of hell. At the minimum imperfect contrition is a requirement to be absolved in confession. In either case a person must acknowledge their sin, have contrition, and have the intent to amend their life and not sin again.

In a similar way, you might say that some sort of contrition is required to make a true apology. No contrition, no real apology. However, I don't think we need to hold out for an ideal form of contrition, rather even contrition motivated by loss of friendship or such other natural consequences could be enough. Perhaps more important still, is to acknowledge that some wrong was done and offer restitution if needed (this having to do with satisfying justice) and also to promise not to do it again. In my mind "I am sorry I got caught" is not good enough, but "I am sorry I have wrecked our friendship" very well could be.

In any case, I would not just let someone off the apology hook because their conscience is clear. If they have done what is objectively wrong, and they yet have a clear conscience, then clearly their conscience is either not well informed or has been misformed. In this case working to correct this would seem a necessary thing. How to go about that is a matter far deeper and more complex than just the question of apologies.

If velcro for patches is good enough for the Army ACUs, then surely it is good enough for us?

The Army ACU (part of the inspiration for the centenial BSA uniform, clearly) has velcro pre-sewn to certain areas to make patch placement easier, even if the soldier doesn't always have a patch in that position.

Plus that little pocket is nearly impossible to use a sewing machine on. I like machine sewing for my uniforms when possible. It looks better and it lasts longer (in my experience).

Plus, boys don't sew much. Truth be told many leaders don't sew much either.

I once sewed on an Eagle knot onto the shirt I was wearing while in the back of an SUV full of people on the way to a section CoC meeting. It worked fine for that day, but was not at all up to speck for long term use.

The velcro is also a good idea if you have a half-dozen district/council positions which is unpleasantly common. I know some of the commissioner types like to talk about "single silver service" or some such but that is more myth than reality in these parts. Few jobs get done very well because the few available volunteers are trying to do 3 or 4 each plus unit level service. Not good. So if a bit of velcro makes their lives easier, go for it.

I can't really see how you could use one shirt for both unit and district positions, the unit numerals would need to be removable, and you would need to swap shoulder loops. I do know of those with both pack and troop positions that keep both sets of loops with their shirts and use velcro patches for quick swapping.

The first use of velcro I ever saw on a scout uniform was by a youth in my troop. He was a transfer from Texas with his Eagle. He was given two positions in the troop, and came up with the velcro idea all on his own.

The more extreme notions of LNT are valid, very much so, in certain conditions and places. If you don't think that is true you have never been in a place that is fragile or delicate in this way. I have, and I have seen what happens when people don't follow LNT.

If you have ever seen the tiny little plants and flowers that make up the groundcover in tundra like conditions at high altitude, you really don't understand just where some of these ideas come from. There are places where one footprint may take a year to regrow, and the footprints of a scout troop may take longer than a life time to grow over.

Those aren't your normal conditions. Nor should we act like the same degree of care is needed in all places and cases.

Yet LNT is meant to be more or less universal, so if it doesn't prepare you for the widest range of possibilities, it isn't doing its job. Where I think it does let us down is in clearly showing how the average Scout unit should apply LNT on average outings of different sorts (which needs to be taylored by area).

Final point, someone mentioned urine. At Philmont this has been an ongoing issue with at different theories holding at different times. Last I heard they supported the idea of "fanning" it to avoid creating salt licks on the trees. At other times the theory has been to use the trees to avoid harming the grasses. Maybe they should alternate from year to year. Who knows. Packing out liquids like that is only logical in certain very particular environments, not common situations.

The Palin's Alaska I think does a good thing for Alaska, and shows Palin to be a rather normal sort of person, but the truth is it makes her out to be entirely too ordinary. I think it reveals far too much of "warts and all" of Palin and her household. Nothing about it makes her seem presidential, though it certainly makes her appealing for certain other roles, such as spokesperson for Alaska tourism, or outdoor activity, or even some sort of every-mom type thing.

I think if you read your council by-laws and BSA by-laws you will likely find more info on this topic.

The bit about the money and property being held for future Scouting use jives with what I remember reading, but of coarse you can never find those on-line in any reasonable form, because apparently we prefer our corporate machinery to be considerably more mysterious than an OA ceremony (which any person can easily find on-line).

If I remember, there was language regarding the money/property being given to the council, an alternative for the CO to hold it for future Scouting use, and some other alternative having to do with mutual agreement of the CO and council. I can't see as how this is legally binding on the CO if the CO was not made aware of and did not specifically agree to it in advance, but in a way the reasoning makes some sense. Funds raised by Scout units are clearly raised for Scouting purposes, so it is a bit shady for the CO to use those funds for some other purpose. In some jurisdictions using funds raised for other than the stated purpose qualifies as a sort of mis appropriation and can be considered a sort of theft in the extreme (our council narrowly avoided going down that road about 5 or 6 years ago when it was discovered the money given for James E West Fellowships for years had not been put in the endowment, but rather was used as general fund revenue and spent, at least one attorney involved in the council sited relevent statute involving "theft by misappropriation" as being a possible avenue for prosecution, though nothing came of it in the end).

In any case, this is a rather tricky question, and I suspect you would need copies of the Charter Agreement, your council by-laws, the BSA rules and regulations, and an attorney knowledgeable with the laws of your state to figure this out.

I think I saw someone start a fire with a bow a few times, but I certainly have never tried it. Then again everyone I saw do it carried a special fire by friction kit for the purpose, never saw anyone improvise it.

Around here we start fires whenever possible, and we even use innovative work arounds to burn bans, everything from those patio fire pits with screen covers to carcoal grills. There are ways. We had a burn ban during our last lodge Vigil induction weekend, that was a bit of a trick to deal with.

I must ask, surely there is a fire place you could use to practice fire building in? Or a wood burner? The same general idea applies after all.

That said, I once had a devil of a time starting a fire in an old brick fire place. I burned up an entire old sears catalog, several hundred pages, and never could get the log to catch or the chimney to draw. Then the owner came in and managed it in just a few minutes. Sometimes it helps to know your equipment.

As to BSA and skills proficiency... I think that is a bad joke. Nothing about BSA's requirements calls for real proficiency. Your average Scout learns something just well enough to get signed off on it and then rapidly forgets all about it. I would hate to think what the failure rate would be if at Eagle BOR we retested the candidates on First Class skills (and the Scoutmasters wouldn't do much, if any, better). This is before even opening the issue of sign offs during classes at summer camps or merit badge universities or any other large group setting. I like that BSA now wants Scouts to teach skills, but the EDGE method as part of Tenderfoot is farcicle.

BS-87, I wish it were not yet time to even think about this yet.

BadenP, why do you think that?

sherminator505, that is easy to guess, what is much harder is why you posted in the thread at all.

I don't think any of the has beens will be a good choice for 2012. In my book Romney, Palin, Huckabee, Paul, and Gingrich qualify as has beens and also rans. Mitch Daniels has done some pretty good work in Indiana, and he knows the federal budget inside and out after his stint in the White House under GW Bush. I don't know if he has national appeal or not, and it is inevitable the media are saving some dirt on him in case of a national run that hasn't come out in the state races. As to Pawlenty, I have no idea. There are plenty of GOP Presidents who made multiple tries before winning the nomination and then the Presidency, but I don't see that as likely this time around.

Things to watch for in 2012 are Democratic challengers to Obama. Will anyone try to unseat him from within the party? The left wing certainly isn't happy with him nor or the few remaining conservative democrats. Or will there be any serious third party candidates? It is easy to imagine a moderate D running as a third party and hamstringing Obama, or some other moderate running a big third party campaign and doing a Perot and keeping the GOP from a victory.

Married couples sharing tents is no problem, and it was common when family members went along on troop outings when I was a youth.

Now, there may be times that this won't work well. For example if you have two female and two male leaders going on a backpacking trip, with one of each constituting a married couple, it may be best for the two females to share a tent adn the two males to share another to avoid taking extra tentage and leaving someone without a tent partner. Similar circumstances may come up in cabin camping or on the rare occasion you stay in a motel while traveling. Generally, married couples stay with one another, but don't put the group out of sorts to accomodate the couple.

My thoughts:

If I were a youth member of that crew, I would want to relieve this girl of the responsibility of her leadership position. She has plenty of responsibility in life being an expectant mother, she doesn't need to be burdenend with a crew position too. This may look like a slap in the face, but in fact it would be a charitable move.

Further, the crew needs to make sure she is getting regular medical checks and that she is observing the activity limits her condition places on her. You really don't want to deal with a misccarriage during your 50 miler, I am pretty sure that isn't in your first aid training.

The attitudes of everyone involved also are a big part of this, and adjustments need to be made accordingly. If she is the new teen celebrity and this is being viewed as some all great thing, then one approach would be needed. If she is about to be run out of town on a rail, another would be appropriate.

As to the father, there are some who think that knocking up a girl is some great accomplishement, but for the most part being the father of a child with an underage, unwed mother is viewed very, very negatively around here. The mother may recieve support. The father is more likely to recieve crucifixion.

As to the question of if the pregnancy "went away" in these parts that would not at all be taken lightly, in fact few things would be viewed more negatively.

I should note that in these parts teen mothers are known to happen, but it is handled with some privacy. No one is in school one day and giving birth the next, rather at some point teen mothers will dissappear for a few months in the later stages of preganancy and for a while after birth, completing studies from home and the like. There aren't any rules that require it be this way, just a lot of social convention.

I tend to favor the mid 90s through 2000s version of the Boy Scout uniform. I like the new uniforms to a point, but I wish the old style had been continued as it offers a far cleaner and neater appearance. Quite frankly for indoor useage it was a superior uniform in all regards. For outdoors the new uniform offers some advantages, but how often is the new uniform actually being worn on outings, particularly given the costs involved?

Also has anyone else noticed an odor problem with the 100 % nylon? It seems to nearly instantly pick up, amplify, and retain even the slightest hint of BO to an extreme. If you sweat in the nylons, it will stink. I also think that having all pants being zip off is a bad idea. Also, the built in belts are rediculous, particulary since they are continuing with selling another not built in belt. At least make the thing easily removable. Also the stitching on the shirts presents an odd and unpleasing asymetrical look, and that extra seem down the left pocket is pointless. If the left sleeve pocket must be used for position patches, please pre sew velcro on it and the patches, after all it is very difficult to machine sew that at home, and machine sewing really is vastly superior to hand sewing. I really think the centenial uniform was a set of good ideas that were not well implemented, and in many cases carried off as only half measures. Also, at a time when fashion is going towards more fitted looks, the centenialls seem to be very loose, baggy, and over-sized. It almost necessar to order a size down to obtain a reasonable fit compared to the prior uniforms.

If I had my druthers, each program would have a uniform suited to its particular needs that was more field/activity oriented, and at the same time an organization wide uniform more suited toward dress useage would also exist. Something like the Centenials carried a step farther towards utility as a outdoor uniform with something along the lines of the prior poly/wools as an indoor uniform organization wide.

Apologies without any contrition are of no value at all, and are essentially a lie.

That does not mean that apologizing should not be encouraged. Many times a person will know they have done wrong but lacks the will or courage or what have you to admit that and then to face the person they have wronged and apologise. Thus adding some external compulsion to get them to make an apology can be in order in certain circumstances, but not all.

If a person rejects completely that they have wronged someone, it is of no use to have them apologize, and will be counter productive to force it.

The council I serve in has no univeral policy, but it does have one regarding its properties. Our camp use permit has, as its first and foremost rule you must agree to, that no sheeth knives are allowed on property. Which is really rather funny, when you start to realise that patrol box cooking knives should be in sheethes, and so should some of the ones down in the camp rangers building, and the handicraft building... etc...

I have often questioned this rule, no one knows who created it, why it was created, or even has any rational reason for it. Yet it survives and turns up on each version of the camp use form even when other rules have been dropped. I think there is some mythological status being attached to this rule, and like most mythical creatures it will be a day for rejoicing when this dragon is slain.

LNT is great when it is understood and applied correctly. It can be a loopy and irratating thing when it is not rightly understood and applied.

Quite frankly there are lot of wrong ideas about what LNT requires in various situations, which is itself a problem since LNT is a set of principles or guidelines, not hard and fast rules carved in stone.

We hear all sorts of crazy ideas about LNT at our long term council camps, everything from people thinking they need to camoflage their tents to people telling their Scouts not to walk in the same place twice to others wanting to put down board walks to perserve the ground. Clearly these people not only received a poor LNT education, but also fail common sense 101.

The case of leaving a campsite better than you found it does not necessarily go away with LNT. It just means that for a pristine backcountry camp, you don't make permanent changes, instead you take extra time to fluff the grass, find all the bits of trash (even those others left) etc. If you are at an established camp site, then building a single, permanent fire ring can in fact be the right thing to do even considering LNT, it just depends on the circumstances.

As for cutting live wood, I don't know of any Boy Scouts that think that is OK. Sounds like the bone headed thinking I have seen in certain non-Scout groups and (sadly) among Cubs (particularly non-leader parents, saw a Cub parent using a double headed axe at night once while the cubs were running all around him and no axe yard boundary, kept wondering if he would split open his own head or one of the cubs). Plus we all know green wood doesn't burn very well, so it isn't a good idea in any case. Not to mention it is illegal on many types of public lands.

Hispanic Youth...

Really I don't know much about the question. We live in a rather non-diverse area but it is certainly gaining more and more diversity. In this area it isn't race that is the main diversity element, though racial diversity is increasing very quickly (but still only a tiny part of total population). To be blunt even council or lodge level functions often have visible minorities counted in the single digits, so this is clearly an issue. Minorities of various types are certainly rather under represented in this area at all levels, while other minorities are over-represented (the percentage of LDS youth in Scouting is certainly an example of this sort).

To some degree I think the Scouting program really does not have exactly equal appeal to all groups.

On the other hand, a lot of it is not only how we market but who is doing the marketing. If someone that looks and sounds like us that we know of from our social network makes a pitch to us we are more likely to be receptive than if someone who looks different, sounds different, and we have never heard of makes that same pitch. It is part of both the brilliance and the handicap of the Charter Organization model of scouting in use by BSA.

I will say the back and forth has gotten rather a bit heated. Kudu certainly has an axe to grind, but I tend to think it is one in need of sharpening and that he knows a thing or two about putting an edge on rusty wood tools. His approach to this question may not be particularly diplomatic or even on point, but in general I think Kudu has a point. As a former (I assume former, it is a new year and no one asked me to serve this year, but that hasn't stopped people's names being put on the roster before) disctrict committee member I have no idea what our TAY or TAR numbers are. I know the council as a whole was running something like 5% at one point where the norm is more like 10%, but that may just be Cubs. After all, Boy Scouts struggles around here and rarely gets any recruiting support, while Venturing might as well not exist and Sea Scouting is as much a mythical creature as sea serpents (despite our council operating an aquatic high adventure and having a camp on a lake larger than Philmont and navigable rivers in every district.

As for DeanRx's ideas, I don't particularly think that is on target, but I could be wrong. As to the question of the Catholic Church and Scouting, it certainly has a voice in things (on the atheist question the Catholic Church and the LDS took a strong position and the Methodists backed keeping God too, thus meaning all three major charter partners were on the same side), but not nearly as much as some would think. The BSA/Catholic relationship has always been a bit of an awkward fit, but one that generally works. However, there are many on both sides that have always had issues with the other. Many on the Catholic side see scouting as being a distraction from real youth ministry work, and some are rather uncomfortable with OA (as are those in many other religious groups). Many in Scouting take a view to the role of religion that is not compatible with the Catholic view of the role of religion in the life of the individual and society (largely a carry over from certain anti-Catholic protestant attitudes). In any case, BSA made it choices on these issues, and it can't un-make them without losing all credibility. It can't say to its members and the world on one day that the sun rises in the east and on the next day say that it rises in the west and be taken seriously as a guide to anything of importance any longer. The loss of special relationships has happened. Those fences will not be mended by changing policy. Rather those relationships are forever and for always changed. Those who insist upon an exclusive version of tolerance/inclusivity/diversity never really welcome in those who ever once were in the opposition, rather considering those switching sides to be always and for ever under suspicion.

I think it is a good idea to encourage health and fitness, but again we need to encourage it, not dictate it.

Leading by example would be a great place to start. I will say that the higher ups I have heard have been well aware of their own limits and understood the need for improvement. I have even heard the CSE make comment along that line, but that was to an all Scouting audience where you knew it wasn't going to be on morning papers.

The height/weight chart is an issue, but it is reasonable as a starting point. There need to be clear alternative methods of qualifying available. There also needs to be clearer guidance about disqualifying those who meat height/weight but not physical ability. I will be honest and say I fit Philmont height/weight but probably could not complete a trek right now, and I may not ever be able to again even though only a decade ago I did one that included Baldy and I am at an age and appear to be in the sort of health to do it again. My docs sign off on the med forms with no restrictions, but I am well aware of having limitations they apparear not to recognize.

As to encouraging school sports... in our neck of the woods very few of those in school sports are also in Scouts. There are lots of reasons for this, but very little of it has to do with Scouing being a barrier to sports. Rather, the sports community actively tries to prevent its participants from involvement in other activities and tries to make them into a sort of ideal "jock" type. The high school bands have similar attitudes towards requiring total commitment and devotion the exclusion of all else, but the kids who take to band tend to be more likely to also take an interest in Scouting. (I have theories about this, but this isn't the place.) I was one of the few people in my troop to ever play for a school team while active in Scouts (7th grade basketball). It did require cutting back on Scouting and missing a lot of great Scouting opportunities for a sport I was not very good at. Yet, when I had something with Scouting that I thought was really important, I talked to the coach, he told me it was my choice and I knew the team rules, but he respected my decision. (If I had just skipped basketball it would have been a big issue complete with yelling and screeming, extra laps for me and the entire team... etc. as it was it just required making up what I missed more or less.) So I would encourage Scouts to play sports, but I don't have much love for the organized school and league sports programs.

(...steps on soap box...)

I really enjoy most things about Scouting, but I do have a list of things I don't like about it.

One of the things at the top of my list of dislikes is having to deal with adults regarding things Scouting says you can't do. Just recently a rather capable Scoutmaster told me about using one of those small backyard type zip-lines running over a pond during a weekend. I had to cringe inwardly and then relate about helping run a COPE zip line and the fact that what he did was probably lots of fun but was probably not allowed. Those sorts of things seem to happen quite a lot.

One of the only things that is worse than that is when the youth come up with a perfectly good program idea that they then have to be told is not allowed by the rules, which also happens with rather a high degree of regularity.

The list of program related things that would have been possible if nor for the rules is rather long. It starts with the Scouts wanting to do lazer tag or paint ball and just gets longer and longer.

To make it worse their local church camps and youth groups are offering forms of outdoor adventure that Scouting does not allow itself to offer. So do all sorts of other clubs and organizations.

Once upon a time if you wanted to do something adventurous Scouting was probably the best place to do it.

Today we look up and down the lake and just about every other camp offers some sort of program that BSA rules prevent us from offering.

I am always amazed at the results certain leaders and units produce considering we often face not only stiff competition for membership but also fight our battles with one hand tide behind our backs.

When I am rather honest about things, I have to say that Scouting delivers the promise... sometimes... partially... to some people.

(...steps off soap box...)

Our council offered all four historical merit badges at our first annual winter camp. From what I hear other council's have done similar things, so I expect a lot of end of year submissions for these. Also, it seems that since Scouting's actual anniversary is in Feb. that these should have been earnable until Scouting's 101st anniversary this February.

So the only basis for assigning MB Counselors is the Scout's preference (very likely uninformed) and concern over being a pedophile? So anyone who is not a pedophile is thus a fine choice for MB counselor so long as the Scout thinks so? Well, I am sure when BSA learns this it will make the process for approving MB counselors much easier.

GSLAC has, at least in the past, been infamaous about adding extra requirements regarding number of MBs each couneslor could teach (6 I think), the maximum number Scouts could get with their parents/scout leaders, etc and still count for Eagle (plus the whole "White Card" business that has finally been fixed, but that many SMs don't realise).

Now in my experience I earned all of my MBs either through the troop or at camp. That isn't ideal, but we didn't have any outside list to draw from. If we wanted something either each of us individually or the troop had to find a counselor. My troop also frowned on using school work toward MB requiremetns, thus I completed the Chemistry requirements at least 3 or 4 times over in high school but never got the badge, and the same with Reading, and the list could go on... not that I really cared, MBs were a necessary annoyance as far as I was concerned as a Scout.

At one time I was officially approved to counsel something like 30 or 40 different badges. The reason for this was that as a camp program director I had to have the ability to at least sign a blue card for everything we offered, just in case some sort of paperwork mix-up or if someone under age worked with the Scout on a requirment and needed an adult to sign it off (youth can't be MB counselors, though they can be given permission to sign off on advancement requirements, which is interesting).

Realistically I could probably instruct a dozen or so.

Now how about this unfortunate situation:

My council does not actively maintain a MB counselor list. Virtually all MBs counseled based purely on SM approval with no district or council involvement. I got an aquaintance of mine registered to do coin collecting, and neither our service center staff nor our Sr. DE even knew there was a particular form to register as a MB counselor other than just the adult application, so I looked it up online and printed a copy (which I suspect someone had an interesting time figuring out what to do with when it was turned in). I wonder, would that technically mean all of the Eagles here for the last decade or so are somewhat illegitimate?