Proud Eagle

This is so darn funny I cant remember what it was I wanted to post.

Oh, now I remember.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with stinky cheese. It is usually a good sign of a properly aged cheese, and I think my mother's college health teacher was right that cheeses and wines need to be properly aged, and that it is safer to drive a car with more steel in it than a tank.

I personally favor the cheese made by the Trappist monks at the Abbey of Gethsemani, http://www.monks.org/ which is located near Bardstown, KY and all the Bourbon distilleries (which lends itself to a story for another time...). In any case, the cheese is rather putrid, smelling like what is sometimes referred to as the smell of old monk feet.

In any case, cheese is one of those things that isn't necessarily bad just because it smells so.

Oh, they also make good use of the Bourbon in there exceptional fruitcakes. In fact, a while back the Wall Street Journal rated their fruit cakes as the best in the nation. These are not you normal fruit cakes, people actually want to receive these as Christmas gifts, and actually eat them.

As to when to wear the sash, the advice given by others covers it well. While I was Lodge Chief I did not wear my sash to all events. Instead I wore it to OA functions, and when I was representing the Order. I would suggest troop reps should not wear the sash to normal troop meetings, but if making an OA related presentation (such as promoting the next lodge event, or promoting a lodge sponsored council wide service project) at a troop meeting or PLC, it would be appropriate to wear the sash. Normally he would be wearing his universal arrow ribon, lodge flap, and his OA troop rep patch to signify his membership in the Order, and lodge, and his position or responsibility respectively.

I am not so sure about wearing the sash with a local crew option uniform. I think the sash is only to be worn with the various official BSA field uniforms. It isn't worn with the activities uniform, nor it worn with the dress uniform (at least to my knowledge).

There are only two times the sash is worn with something other than the official uniform (to the best of my knowledge)-

when serving as an elangomat

when in regalia for an OA ceremony

Unfortunately, since BSA gave the crews the option of creating an official crew uniform, this subject is a bit less than clear. However my interpretation would be that the sash can be worn with the official Venturing uniform but not with a crew uniform.

Related qestion- does anyone know what the proper way to wear the sash would be if the person is in the BSA field uniform and is wearing the official red jack-shirt? It seems it might be possible to wear it either under or over the red jack-shirt, but I don't know of anything that spells that out.

Don't be too concerned with getting the biggest pack in the universe, get one large enough for what you will normally use it for (OK, maybe a little bit bigger), and for those extra long treks just get inventive in your packing. Years ago my parents got me (at my suggestion) a peak 1 external composite frame backpack. It is a good size pack with an extremely good suspension system, but it lacks many of the features now common, and really is at its limit for a week long trip. However, I ended up taking that pack to Philmont in 01. I just had to work hard on keeping volume down (which usually keeps weight down too), and then finding a way to strap everything else onto the outside. I had to strap on sleeping bag, ridge rest pad, chair kit for pad, tent poles, and a couple of nalgene bottles in holders. I would imagine adding all that extra stuff to the outside probably wasn't the most weight conscious way to go, but it worked.

I seem to recall Philmont suggestions something in the area of a 4000 cubic inch for externals and something like 4800 cubic inches for internals for their hikes that about 8 days. I did it with a pack that is approximately 3500 cubic inches, but if I go back I will want something larger.

Another thing to consider is the other equipement you are using. For your early attempts at backpacking, which should be weekend length trips in relatively easy terrain, you can use standard equipment such as tents and sleeping bags. However, if you begin to get into serious backpacking, long treks in difficult terrain, you will eventually want to supplement some of your standard camping equipment with some lighter, more compact backpacking versions.

On the issue of being a Scout leader, I would suggest a Venturing Crew specializing in high adventure activity would probably be the best fit for you. The members will be older youth and the activities will be challenging. If that doesn't work out, there are also many Boy Scout Troops that do large amounts of high adventure and other outdoor activities that you might fit in with. Just keep in mind being an adult in Scouting is about more than just the outdoors, it is about developing the character of youth members. Though I would guess that most units would be glad to have another outdoor enthusiast around to help out, even if they do have to show you the ropes first, so to speak.

Also, there are various non-Scouting clubs and groups that specialize recreational camping and backpacking. Some of these are affiliated with universities, YMCAs, outfitters, community centers, or other handy places.

In the old days, new candidates were tapped out. Due to the fact that there is no nationally dictated ceremony for this, some lodges became quite inventive in their methods. Unfortunately, at least a few did things that could be physically harmful or would now be considered hazing. Therefore, the OA put out new guidelines that changed the tap-out into the call-out. Many now believe that any physical contact during ceremonies is prohibited. However, a careful read of the Guide for Officers and Advisers, and the Guide to Inductions, reveals there is no such policy.

On page 18 of the Guide to Inductions the clearest explanation can be found. The section is titled "Framework for the Call-Out Ceremony".

"Tapping

Any physical contact in any Order of the Arrow ceremony must be symbolic in nature."

There is a somewhat misleading line under Items Not to Include, but those with a proper understanding of symbolic progression understand what this line is talking about.

So my reading is that at least some of the old style tap-outs are currently allowed. (Though obviously anything that violates symbolic progression, injures someone, or qualifies as hazing would not be allowed.)

I would have liked to put this in the restricted section, but I seem to be having difficulties getting into that section (yes I know how to spell the admonition). So remember that anyone can read this thread.(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

Ordeal: spring 1999 at Camp Wildcat Hollow

Brotherhood: spring 2000 at Camp Wildcat Hollow

Vigil Honor: early 2003 at Camp Wildcat Hollow

I have served on several ceremonies teams. I served in chapter offices in 2000 and 2001. I served as Chief of the White Horse Lodge in 2002. http://www.lodge201.org

From the time I received the Vigil Honor until the present time I have served as chairman of the lodge's Brothers of the Vigil Honor committee. I will likely remain in that capacity until I become an adult Arrowman later this year.

I was not tapped or called out prior to the Ordeal since elections were in the spring and call outs were done at summer camp. That issue has since been addressed, at least in part, by conducting call outs during the spring camporree.

On the issue of tap outs versus call outs, I am starting a new thread on that issue.

Wulelensin Woapalanne(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

Try supply division, or your local scout shop or council office for those cards. I know I received cards with all my advancements, and most of my merit badges (time period 1995-2001). They are still available last I knew.

I can't locate them in the on-line catalog, but ask around next time you are at the scout shop and they will probably be able to hook you up.

I believe they refer to these as "pocket certificates".(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

This statement may actually have been correct. I know of one troop that until very recently (last couple of years) gave all new scouts who had earned the AOL their Tenderfoot automatically. Why they did this no one really knows. It is just the way they did things.

It is possible there are other troops still doing this.

Hopefully, if this is the case, someone can be shown the light and brought up to speed on how things are supposed to work in the 21st century.

This is one of those cases where you know what happened, but would have a heck of a time ever proving it to anyone.

You should watch this PL very closely. I would recommend a SM conference with the boy. Don't mention the specific situation that prompted it. Just discuss the issues of proper behavior for Scouts, and the expectations you have for those participating in troop functions. Try to get him to do some self analysis if you can.

Also, a discussion with the committee may be in order. I would at least bounce the idea off the CC to see what he thinks.

If you don't think that this is enough correct his behavior and prevent future problems, you may want to remove him from his position. If you think that is necessary, then I would certainly want the committee to discuss the issue as well. I would say the bullying is certainly grounds for removing him from his position.

Further, you should consider having him go before a BOR to discuss these issues and to formulate a plan to get back on track so that next time he will be able to go for his second class.

The thing is, we can only make suggestions. You are the one on the ground who best knows the situation. You must determine how to balance the needs for corrective action with the need to avoid overreacting and driving him out. Hopefully, you can make a carefully measured response, get this boy back on track, and have him continue on with a successful time in Scouting.

Oh, don't forget about that SPL. You can't prove that he had anything to do with fixing the election, but odds are he at least knew about it. Keep your eyes open for any future incidents.

I am very much against the idea of the "you vote for me and I will make APL". This is particularly troubling because he could be making that exact deal with every member of the patrol and no one would know until it is too late. Also, if he is elected, he should be selecting his APL based on merit, not on who they voted for. This isn't good. I would suggest that a good way to deal with this would be to have the PLC set down some guidelines about campaigning.

I don't mind campaigning, but this seems more like bribery. Though I guess this is minor compared to what goes on with OA section elections... Ah, the blissful days before I knew too much...

These things happen.

The last Eagle court I attended was for a friend back during spring break. I know him through OA, and so do many others, so there was a large group of OA people in attendance. The day before this COH the council exec had resigned under "interesting" circumstances and so that was the dominating topic of discussion. Fortunately, most in attendance were inclined to celebrate that news as well, so it just added to the celebratory atmosphere.

In any case, being asked to take part in an Eagle COH is a pretty big honor, and a bit humbling. I had the experience of being the master of ceremonies for another friends Eagle court only a few months after my own COH, so I know the feeling.

I remember hearing something about this some time ago. Apparently the idea is to fully integrate the tiger dens into the pack, so that it is more or less just another type of den, rather than a semi-separate program. The change in uniforms is part of that. Also, I think another idea was to have one less reason for tigers to quit after their first year.

From what I remember reading, there was supposed to be at least a year that packs could choose either uniform, then it was going to the CS blues only.

That is all I can remember, and it may be a bit off since I don't really follow CS issues very much.

Effective use of electronic communications, with some time devoted to proper etiquette for use with such things as email. See the thread on Problems with Email for the idea. It could also incorporate some information on how to supplement printed mailings with electronic mailings, that sort of thing.

I guess I have been pretty lucky. Every time someone starts sending me lots of forwards I am always able to convince them to either take me off the list of people they forward to, or at least to only send the good stuff. Most of them went the rout of only sending the good stuff.

I personally try to avoid forwarding anything non-essential.

I know there are some scouting people around here who cause problems. The DC has been blocked by almost every Scouter in the district because he forwards everything to everyone, no exceptions. One SM even had him blocked from the entire network at his place of work, and had them rig up a somewhat interesting auto-reply.

Maybe Bob White should offer a electronic communication etiquette class at that U of Scouting he is working on...

I have also been unable to enter the restricted area. I know I have the correct spelling, since I have it printed in one of the ceremonies. I also tried the alternative spelling from the Lenape-English Dictionary with the same results.

When I enter in my user name, password, and the forum password it comes back with an HTTP 500 Internal server error.

My council has three camps.

One was a summer camp until the 70s. For latrines all it has is two normal bathrooms in the lodge/cabin/dining hall building.

Another had its last year of Boy Scout camp in 94. It has latrines in various states of (dis)repair at each campsite. These latrines are a small step above a true outhouses. They mostly have a pilot/copilot seat configuration, a urinal, trough like sink (cold water only), and water spigot. Hot showers are available at the pool, and there is a shower in the staff lodge and the medical lodge as well. There are also a few flush toilets in major buildings.

The current summer camp has essentially the same latrine configuration as the other camp, except the latrines are in far better condition due to the greater amount of maintenance money available. Showers are also better. There are two hot water equipped shower houses for campers, plus staff showers. The only flush toilets are in staff areas.

This is a test of the Issues and Politics inflammatory subjects system. If the system is working, by the mere mention of the three words I am about to post, a 5 page argument will be started.

GAYS

GOD

GIRLS

I have occasionally slipped and used (a homonym for something beavers build), (a word beginning with "c" for something deposited in a latrine), or hell in ways that were probably not optimal. I don't think I have ever done this while leading youth, per say. However, as a youth OA leader I have sometimes slipped and done so around other youth OA leaders who are also youth members of the BSA. I try not to use any objectionable language, but I do sometimes slip up from time to time. Though I still maintain hell is just a geographical (for lack of a better term) location when used in the proper context.

Oh, and I must say, what one poster has said here is very ironic considering something they have said in another thread.(This message has been edited by Proud Eagle)

I have yet to make use of the squelch feature. I do not intend to ever make use of it.

However, if some poster decides to make their personal mission in life attacking me, or some other thing such as that, then I would likely be forced to use it.

Perhaps everyone who posts here should agree to just forgive and forget the past insults and injuries by other posters, and everyone could also rededicate themselves to the applying the Oath and Law to these forums. Then everyone could turn the squelch off and we could get back to the business at hand.

Online re-dedication ceremony anyone?

The only thing I would suggest on this topic is to place the FOS presentation at the beggining of the COH. The entire thing is more dignified if all the other business is out of the way before the recognition portion is begun.

Another possible venue for FOS, would be a parents meeting. I know many troops have at least a couple of those each year to keep the parents informed about things like major trips coming up and the annual fundraiser and such.

Another good place (and this may bring in some outside the unit money) would be a cook out with members of the charter organization. Back home my troop is chartered to the men's club of a church. Once a year there is a cook out for all members of the men's club, troop members, and the parents of Scouts.

When did I say, or suggest, that Scouts should be rotated as quickly as possible?

When did I say anything at all about the Scout's need/want for rank advancement?

The answer is never, at least not in this thread.

I did mention there is a need to create a balance between the desire to train and developed new leaders and the desire to have the most qualified person in a position at all times. That doesn't sound like some radical statement to me. I did go on to say that I would slightly favor developing a new leader over leaving the better qualified one in place.

Lets think about this another way. In some respects, a Scout troop is a school for leaders. Now lets look at other schools for examples. Schools don't leave the most capable students in the same classes forever. Instead, they move them on to new opportunities, and then other students get to experience the same challenges they have already faced. In schools, this doesn't happen every day. Time must be given to allow people to learn and practice the skills they are being taught. Sometimes an exceptionally capable student skips a grade. Other times, someone must repeat one. So it is with youth leadership in a Scout troop.

Having the same scout be QM for his entire tenure in the troop may get you a very well organized inventory. Unfortunately, it will not produce a capable, balanced leader. It won't give your other Scouts the opportunity to learn about inventory control, attention to detail, and the other skills and abilities that can be gained as a QM. Now if that QM isn't worried about being trained to be an all round good leader, and you aren't worried about exposing the most scouts to the most number of challenges that are practical, then there is nothing wrong with the same scout being QM for his entire tenure, or some other prolonged period of time.

Now the interesting thing is, no matter what I think the best combination of leaders would be for a given troop, my opinion doesn't really matter. Ultimately it is the boys who will have to figure that out by electing their PLs and the SPL (normally, see next paragraph for exception to that), and indirectly by the appointments made by their elected SPL. So it is really out of the hands of this particular ASM (which is true in the next paragraph as well).

Also, I must tell you, I know a few things about forcing people into leadership positions they are not ready for. The SM back home decided that one boy who had gone to JLTC, and is working in the direction of Eagle, would be the new SPL. His reasoning was the boy had expressed great interest, the current SPL was burned out after several terms, and no one else had really expressed much interest. So instead of an election, there was an executive appointment. Now the troop has der furher SPL who believes it is now his troop, that everything must be done his way, and that the only way to get anyone to do something is to command them as if they were his personal servants. He believes he is the commander, and the scouts are his troops. This is particularly unpleasant, because he seems to find the troops to be expendable. So giving this boy his opportunity and challenge has come at a great cost to the rest of the troop. Though this is as much of an example of why the boys should choose their own leaders as it is an example of why people shouldn't be pushed into new leadership positions.

I think a few people have hit on a good point. In many cases the choice to move to a district position is seen as leaving the unit entirely. In fact, I think many unit leaders promote that idea to keep their leaders. Also, some unit leaders are automatically suspicious of district or council related things. Further, the district and council people spread the same idea. The tell people they want people that will dedicate their full Scouting time to the district to fill positions. They tell people they will be moving "beyond" the unit and other things that would make it sound like you will never see that cozy troop campfire again. I think the district is motivated by the desire to get leaders that are not going to be stretched too thin by trying to do unit and district jobs, but in the process they are scaring people away.

I think I should revise my statement, after having read the posts here and considered the matter more closely.

I think part of the problem is, no one wants to do anything for the district. All the competent, active leaders currently in Scouting are up to their eyeballs in unit level stuff. No unit has any active leaders to spare to move into district positions. The district hasn't had much luck in getting people outside of Scouting to help out either.

You know, it actually reminds me more of the Starfleet uniforms from Star Trek than anything else. I can't speak for the average Australian by any means, or even the average American for that matter, but I would certainly want no part of such a uniform.

Your MSalagy is flawed. Leadership development is largely a cumulative process. Your quartermaster probably learned skills while in that position that will be helpful in carrying out other responsibilities.

To put it another way, lets say you do send the guy off to Access training. When he gets back you soon send to to Photo shop training. Now he knows two of the programs that make up the complete Office suit. Maybe a little later he can learn Power Point.

Sure, maybe some of the very specific skills such as the inventory system itself may only apply to the quartermaster's position. However, that inventory system is really more like learning Access than it is a leadership skill. Instead, the contribution to leadership development was in the areas of attention to detail, organizational skills, and problem solving.

As to what constitutes mastery of a leadership skill, that is hard to say. You are correct that there will always be some new challenge (or should be). However, do these challenges really cause any significant growth in the leaders abilities? Here is an example of someone who had mastered their leadership position- James T. Kirk, as a starship captain. In cases such as that, it is best to put the most qualified person in the position, because of the critical nature of the position. In a Scout troop, there is no position that is so weighty with responsibility as that of a starship captain. A troop can survive having a leader that is still learning. That is not so good of an idea when delicate diplomacy or complex combat may be part of the situation.

Have the Brits finally learned to drink coffee?

If so they have a more tolerant pallet than I do. I will take a good cup of tea over coffee any time.

p.s. Yes, I know they have coffee on that side of the pond as well. I even saw a study (National Geographic, I think) that showed the Turks are drinking more tea than the the English now due to the increasing popularity of other drinks, including coffee. What is the world coming to?