Pint

The 'God or/and religion Issue is something that if its radicaly changed would ave to be done so at an international level, this is an interesting article on the subject from the World Organisation of the Scout Movement http://www.scout.org/information_events/resource_centre/the_leader_s_questions/spiritual_dimension

From a UK point of view the God issue exists over here as well, but in a much watered down format, stating that an avowed absence of religous belief is a bar to taking on an adult leadership role within Scouting.

The 'God or/and religion Issue is something that if its radicaly changed would ave to be done so at an international level, this is an interesting article on the subject from the World Organisation of the Scout Movement http://www.scout.org/information_events/resource_centre/the_leader_s_questions/spiritual_dimension

From a UK point of view the God issue exists over here as well, but in a much watered down format, stating that an avowed absence of religous belif is a bar to taking on an adult leadership role within Scouting.

Eagle, the reason why i posted it was because it showed how Scouting bought yuong people together from different racial backgrounds, at a time when racisms was rife, and acepted as normal.

thought i would share this little piece from the UK newspaper - The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/

Washington DC in the early 1940s was, for photographer Gordon Parks, not a welcoming place. He arrived in 1942 to work for the Department of Agricultures Farm Security Administration set up to improve the lives of poor, rural landowners as the only black member of its photography corps, and discovered bigotry all about him. He was turned away by restaurants, kicked out of theatres and denied service at department stores. After just a few days in the city, he was demoralised. In this radiant, historic place, he said, racism was rampant.

That backdrop of open prejudice makes his relatively unknown documentation of several interracial childrens camps all the more remarkable. After the FSA disbanded, Parks remained in Washington as a correspondent with the Office of War Information, and one assignment was to photograph this bold social experiment run by the Boy Scouts of America. Espousing egalitarian ideals, the groundbreaking camps were designed to encourage black and white kids to eat, play, pray and raise the US flag together.

A year later, in 1944, disgusted with the prejudice hed encountered, Parks resigned. He moved to Harlem to work as a freelance fashion photographer, and in 1948 a photo-essay on a Harlem gang leader won him a job as a photographer and writer with Life, making him the first African-American staffer on a major US magazine. For the rest of his career, he produced an extraordinarily broad range of work, photographing fashion, sport, Broadway, racial segregation and poverty, and shooting everyone from dictators and gangsters to children in slums and film stars. And he never stopped: he would be 100 now, and probably still working.

Full article here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/gallery/2012/dec/07/gordon-parks-interracial-childrens-camps

"Wouldn't an atheist making a promise of duty to God be lying?"

Peregrinator, are Buddhist scouts liars?

Budhist Scouts have this option...

"On my Honour,

I promise that I will do my best,

to do my duty to my Dharma and to the Queen

to help other people,

and to keep the Scout law"

Muslim this one:

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent the Most

Merciful, I Promise that i will do my best,

to do my duty to Allah, and to the Queen

to help other people and to keep the Scout law

and the standard version:

On my honour, i promise that I will do my best,

to do my duty to God and to the Queen,

to help other people and to keep the Scout law.

And the Scout law:

A Scout is to be trusted.

A Scout is loyal.

A Scout is friendly and considerate.

A Scout belongs to the world-wide family of Scouts.

A Scout has courage in all difficulties.

A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.

A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.

Meanwhile, across the North sea, the Dutch Scouts look on...

ik beloof mijn best te doen

een goede Scout te zijn,

bewust het goede te zoeken en te bevorderen,

iedereen te helpen waar ik kan

en me te houden aan de Scouts-wet.

Jullie kunnen op me rekenen.

and in English....

I promise to do my best

to be a good Scout

to search for, and encourage the good consciously,

to help everyone where I can

and to live by the scout law.

You can depend on me.

The wikkipedia article linked to above (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Scouting

) is a little out of date

from what i know the UK policy ( at theis time of writing ) does not exclude youth members who express doubts/declare themselves to be atheists etc, the policy for adults is slightly different as an avowed absence of a relegious beleif is a bar to membership.

The misssmatch occurs when a young person/youth member joins who staes that they do not beleive in God, and refuse the make the scout promise ( and say the line "Duty to God"), which they have to make in order to join.

The article linked to here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9719079/Time-for-a-Promise-that-atheists-can-keep.html is something new, and I await to see exactly what its about tomorrow, cpmplete with the fall out whatever way it goes.

Quote: "Ok...Word to the atheists. Never buy your CHRIST-mas tree from a Boy Scout. "

Isnt that where Xmas comes in?

On a slightly more depersing note we have got a Seasonal service coming up ( was previously a christmas carol service ) that apparently is going to concentrate on the spirutual side of humanity, apparently it will be non denominational, non relegious and instead it will focus on the spritual side things and the diversity of humanity as a whole.

most of the Scouts and parents cant see the point in it.

One of the Issues that i see for the BSA is that with intel and UPs withdrawing support, who next?

The loss of financial support by a large organisation donating money to a far off headquearters may seem distant, after all what realy counts is what goes on in our local comunities, but if these big corporates withdraw suport what will the effect downstream be, will it still be as easy for leaders/Scout masters to ask for extra time off work, if their employers head office/affiliated company(ies) make it clear that they no longer support Scouting?

Then of course theres the press and media, like it or loathe it in order for Scouting to get its message out it needs good P.R, if the media are only pumping out negative stories ,then its going to become increasingly harder to promote scouting as the positive force that it should be.

Weve just had our local Rememberance day parade with an impressive turn out by our Beavers/cubs and Scouts, meeting at the local branch of the Royal British Legion before assembling and parading through our local town to the war memorial by the Church, with a short service that involved a silence at 11am, laying the wreaths and a few other bits.

We then re-asembled and paraded back to the Royal British Legion (RBL is a veterans association ) where some of us

( including the cubs/beavers/scouts) had a few drinks at the bar - (non alcoholic for under 18's )

all over the UK, siamalr parades and services took place, including one in London at the cenotaph, where Scouts form an honour gaurd as the Queen, Prime minister etc file past.

Thought id share this with you...

The Scouts at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day

Since 1922, there has been an Honour Guard of Queen's Scouts (and formerly King's Scouts) flanking the door from the Foreign & Commonwealth Office to the Cenotaph. There are no remaining written records in The Scout Association archives to tell us precisely the history of the first Honour Guard, but it is probable that the King's Scouts were there at the request of King George V himself.

So, what exactly did Scouts do in the First and Second World Wars that qualifies them to mount an Honour Guard at the Foreign & Commonwealth Office to this day, and to stand to attention in front of the Queen, the Prime Minister, Cabinet Ministers and all the representatives of Commonwealth countries as they file past? Well, for a start, an enormous number of Scouts served in the armed forces, police force and fire service since 1908, and have been highly valued by their regiments and squadrons for their prior knowledge and training. Many Scouts served in ambulance units, air raid patrols, and other civilian services.

By the end of the World War 2 more than 60,000 Scouts had been awarded the National Service Badge for their work at home. They had worked as First Aid orderlies, signallers, telephonists, Air Raid Precaution (ARP) messengers, stretcher-bearers, Coast Watch, Home Guard instructors and Rest Centre assistants. They had made camouflage nets, helped evacuate thousands of younger children from bombed city centres, harvested millions of tonnes of food and animal fodder, chopped wood on a massive scale (around 600,000 hours), and salvaged glass, metal and rubber for re-use.

However, it was the service performed by Scouts during air raids and the Blitz on London that showed outstanding courage and application of the words of the Scout Promise and Law. 80 young Scouts were given Scouting gallantry medals, and in London, Coventry and Liverpool the Silver Cross (Scouting) was awarded to entire Troops. Individual Scouts were awarded the George Medal and George Cross. Fifteen Scouts just old enough to serve in the forces were awarded the Victoria Cross. One particular service Scouts gave to London was guiding fire engines in from the outskirts of the city by the quickest routes to blazing buildings. When they couldn't get any closer to the fires because of the danger, the Scouts provided First Aid treatment and a barricade to stop others getting too close. In an air raid on Manchester, Scouts rushed burned and wounded firemen to hospital and returned to the scene to carry on their First Aid work. In many cases, older Scouts took over from Leaders who had joined up or been killed, in order to keep Troops together.

That's just a small indication of the support and service given by Scouts at a time when their skills, training and team-spiritedness were called upon constantly. The uniform made them instantly recognisable as individuals who could be trusted to give directions or provide a focus in a crisis, such as an air raid. So, on the eleventh day of the eleventh month every year, Scouts march at the tail of the procession of veterans, alongside Guides and members of the Boys' Brigade who have also provided civilian services to the public. From the 1930s until the late 1950s, London's Rover Scouts had their own service and procession past the Cenotaph, and thousands came from all over the country to march.

Remembrance Sunday for Scouts isn't about marching like soldiers or glorifying war. It's about representing fellow Scouts who 'did their best' in frightening and dangerous circumstances for the sake of their community and their country.

nice bit of publicity and probably something the lad will remember for a while.

Just out of curiosity, from a UK scouter, what is Scout popcorn?

and as for

Great story.

I bet that the Queen never bought anything from a Boy Scout.

Ea.

although her Daughter in law ( kate ) volunteers with the Scouts.

From a UK Scouters point of view... ( ie my p.o.v)

I think there is more to this than meets the eye, what in the USA with the BSA you call the Scout Oath, we have a Scout Promise, which is

"On My honour,

I promise that I will do my best,

To do my duty to God and to the Queen,

to help other people,

and to keep the Scout law"

This is where things start to get a little contradictory, all members have to take the Scout promise when joining, the rules state that for adult members that an avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a ( Adult )Leadership position.

for those under 18 - ie youth members the UK Cheif comisioner for Scouting says this:

Scouting is of course open to followers of all faiths (and appropriate variations of the Scout Promise are available),furthermore we recognise that many young people have not yet fully formed their beliefs or faith, indeed one of the elements of Scouting is to actively encourage and allow young people to explore their faiths, beliefs and attitudes.Indeed, we accept that young people who question Gods existence(and say they are atheists or agnostics), their own spirituality or thestructures and forms of belief espoused by the various religions may simply besearching for spiritual understanding.

So if a youth member says that they are atheist/agnostic then they are simply searching for spiritual uderstanding ( or have not yet found it)and there is nothing wrong with them being in scouts, or joining Scouts.

which brings us back round to the Scout promise which they must say Do my "Duty to God" in order to join - has anyone spotted a flaw/contradiction in this anywhere?

If we look at whats happened it could possibly appear that:

The Scout leader should have told the youth member about the Scout promise and law, and if the youth member has/had any issues and questions then these should have been raised, and dealt with apropiatley, with regards to the God question if asked, i would have mentioned that its up to the young person to define God, weather they see, or understand God to be as God is in the traditional sense of things, or to re-define God as maybe something else - such as the force of nature, or even the force behind nature.

If you look at Evolution how did that all start, what was the zero point in the evolution of life? who, or what lit the fuse that started the big bang? was/is it nature? is nature just another word/term for God?

Another oddity is that the youth member had been attending Scouts for some time, almost a year, why the wait?

(This message has been edited by pint)

If your going down that route then try this set of factsheets and information

"Promoting good sexual health"

http://scouts.org.uk/supportresources/search/?cat=299,303,412

anyway back to reality, looking in from the outside - and the other side of the pond it can often seem that the gay issue is a major thing in the USA/BSA in the UK the gay/lesbain population is very much a minority - in the sense that theres not that many of them, do i know of any gay/lesbain Scouters? and the answer to that is a no, do i know of any? well theres so and so, who was at a camp 6 years ago who could have been but probably wasnt, and thats about as far as it goes.

so from my view point there is either a large amount of lesbian/gay people knocking on the door of the BSA, or its being blown out of all proportion by the media and news who feed of negative stories, and hype them up endlessly.

As for the UK side of things, im not sure if there was a specific ban on gay/lesbains in scouting in the UK in the past, all i know is that an equal opportunities policy was just quietly updated/introduced that explictly banned discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, from where i am the equal opps policy had no effect what so ever, this is the equal opportunities policy - ok lets just concentrate on Scouting.

The problem that i see for the BSA adopting a simalar problem is that they appear to have backed themselves into a corner, and a quiet adoption of a simalar policy with no or very little fuss/publicity from the media wouldnt be that easy, the only way that i could see it working for the BSA is to drop it as a mandatory national requirement, and allowing charter organisations to opt out should they chose to do so.

The Charter organisation set up is a fundamental difference between UK Scout Asssociation Scouting and USA BSA Scouting, charter orgs. do not exist in the UK, and sponsored Scout troops are not the normal set up.

So to ask the question "So a Scout Tells you he is gay????" i would leave it at that and say its no problem ( even if it was/could be) as long as they didnt ake an issue of it - i dont walk rould shouting im straight/hetro, and niether would i expect any one to walk round shouting that they are gay/homosexual.

Dont forget that aot of young people are still trying to find themselves in this big nasty old world, and as part of the growing up process confusion is common, as Scout leaders/scout masters we should be helping young people to fully develop their physical, intellectual, spiritual and social well being, in order that they can become better citizens and individuals, and in turn make a positive impact upon their comunites, countries, and maybe the world as a whole.

Consult a factsheet...

LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender)

The Scout Association has an equal opportunities policy, and welcomes members regardless of their sexual orientation or gender.

View Supporting a young person who is gay and in Scouting (FS185083) (PDF)

View It's OK to be gay and a Scout: advice for young people (FS185082) (PDF)

View Being gay with an adult role in Scouting (FS185081) (PDF)

http://scouts.org.uk/supportresources/search/?cat=377,378

(This message has been edited by pint)(This message has been edited by pint)

The UK Scout Association has just issued a guide called "how to talk about Scouting"

here http://www.scouts.org.uk/documents/How%20to%20Talk%20About%20Scouting.pdf

Although this forum mainly deals with USA Scouting (BSA) there may be some stuff in there that could be used to promote the positive aspects of Scouting anywhere in the world

"Is this how you keep the scouts away from the TV? That's a good one. How do you like your snipe cooked?

LOL "

I should have mentioned that im in the UK, and in order to watch live TV we need to purchase a Tv licence, which currently costs 145 per year, ( roughly $232 ) the revenue form this funds BBC Tv, BBC online, and BBC radio which in the UK is advert/comercial free. ( Radio licences were dropped a long time ago in favour of TV licences)

The current penalty is a fine of 1,000 ($1,600 roughly) plus legal costs and a court apearance.

Enforcament is carried out by comparing a database of addresses with and without Tv licences, those places that dont have a licence get threatening letters warning of the consequencies, and in some cases can expect a visit by an enforcement team.

see here: http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/detection-and-penalties-top5/

We looked into a projector, but went with a 42inch TV from the local supermarket, it acepts inputs from all sorts of devices ( including PC/VGA in) and its running costs/initial price is considerably less than a projector.

for storage pruposes it lives in a box, and for setting up/use its somewhat easier than messing around with a projector+focusing+projector screen.

The only downside is that our Scout HQ doesnt have a TV licence, so its ilegal to use the Tv to watch lve broadcasts, which is why a sign has been placed on the back wrming users that thye will be liable for any fine for licence evasion if caught by a TV detector van/enforcement team

The God question, or issue dependiong on your take on it goes further than the BSA or any other national Scout organisation

take a read of this from the Wosm website:

http://www.scout.org/information_events/resource_centre/the_leader_s_questions/spiritual_dimension

In my opinion the word and term Marrige describes the long term union of a Man and Woman, or to be more exact male and female human.

I have no issue with same sex relationships, or civil partnerships etc etc and if they want it then they should have something thats equivalent to marriage in law, but in my opinion whatever they call it it wont be marriage.

As for civil partnerships, from my understanding of the situation here ( in the UK ) these dont have the same legal status as marriage, they sort of ocupy an almost but not quite status, and they are not available to hetrosexual couples who may not feel ready to comit fully in marriage, maybe their should eb a civil engaement and then marriage and civil partnerships and then something else for the homosexuals.

Realistically? probably the same as whats happened elsewhere, and thats not much.

First thing that would have to go or change would be the name The Boy Scouts of America wouldnt cut it as a true co-ed organisation, so as waht ahppened in the Uk in the late 1960's/early 1970's the Boy part could be dropped to just Scouts of America.

Next up would be washroom provision at Scout facilities, if they dont already cater for separate male/female then provision would need to be made

As for camping, and other trips that involve overnight stays, separate accomodation may be required.

As for the rest of scoutsin what shold be changed? the answer would be hardly anything, my opinion was that if girls want to join then they would join to do Scouting on equal terms with everyone else.

There is no local option, well to all intents and purposes.

If the Group Scout leader approves of that person, and in some cases the Group Exec comittee usualy made up of a mixture of parents/ex parents old scouters/ and any one from a sponsoring body ( in the rare case its a sponsored group) the new volunteer frst has to fill out an Adult aplication form which includes a full and comprehensive background check ( this includes something called and Enhanced CRB ) once cleared ( or sometimes before - but not without unsupervised access) He/She usaly starts on a provisional appointment this is then followed up by a meeting with the district apointments comittee.

Regardless of whos who, and whats what such as sponsored or non sponsored group - sponsoring bodys policy/Group scout leaders own opinions and so on they can not go against national policy on equal opportunites.

Although each Scout Group is an autonomous entity, if it folds ( ie ceases to exist) or choses to leave the Scout association and move to another scouting organisation all of its assets then belong to district, and in turn Regional, and from there national.

If a Scout Group decides to go against national policy those responsable for that decision adn enforcing it are removed/suspended from Scouting. the most recent case of this was a group who had some of their leaders removed ( ie mebership was revoked) when the refused to alow girls to join as this was against national policy.

The Natinal UK Scout Association policy as outlined in POR is above all else.

so in short in the UK District/regional/National would support a leader who was removed in contravention of natinal policy to the extent of removing those who went against this policy regardless of who they were/are(This message has been edited by pint)

Following on from recent press and media articles about the membership policy of the Boy Scouts of America, the UK Scout Association has issued the following statement...

( copy and pasted from here:

http://www.scouts.org.uk/newsandviews/module/31/663/sexual-orientation-should-not-be-a-bar-to-membership )

*******************************************************

"There has been coverage in the media and on social media of the recent decision by the Boy Scouts of America to uphold their ban excluding gay people from membership of that organisation, either as Scouts or leaders.

We would like to restate our own, very different position with regard to this issue within The Scout Association in the UK, through the following statement.

'The Scout Association is aware of the recent decision by the Boy Scouts of America to continue with its ban of gay leaders and members. We have been asked by our own members and leaders here in the UK, and by our wider stakeholders and community, to affirm our own position on this aspect of diversity and inclusivity.

We recognise that each National Scout Organisation within our World Scout Movement is an independent organisation that delivers a programme designed to meet the needs of the communities in the country in which it operates. Those communities will judge the relevance and appropriateness of each organisation's policies by joining or not joining that organisation.

In the UK we have a very clear policy and practice that welcomes adults and young people (boys and girls) irrespective of their sexual orientation. We are proud that we have had this approach in place for many years. We believe that this reflects the needs and wants of the communities in which we operate, and reflects our affirmed view that sexual orientation should not be a bar to membership. We believe that discriminating against an individual simply on the grounds of his or her sexuality is inappropriate, and is contrary to our interpretation of the inclusivity and values of Scouting.

In the UK, our Scout membership has seen significant and sustained growth over the last eight years for young people and for adult volunteers. We have been pleased to support Pride events. We openly and equally welcome LGBT and heterosexual young people, volunteers and supporters who wish to join our Movement. We would hope that as a result of further dialogue and reflection, the Boy Scouts of America would reconsider their position to further serve young people and the wider community.'

Wayne Bulpitt, UK Chief Commissioner and Derek Twine, Chief Executive , July 2012

The Scout Association in the Uk has started to use TV advertising to recruit more adult leaders first add here

http://youtu.be/xhlvja2ZY8g(This message has been edited by pint)

a cynical approach could be; Scouts - where else can you get child care for under 1.25 per hour? that somehow makes the right noises for both - what those in the USA would call Liberal minded people Scouting is inclusive accepts male and females on an equal grounds has a prescence and (promotes it) at events such as Gay Pride, as well as the more right wing type flag waving, traditional values, patriotic and so on.

Wosm is just an abreviation for the World Organisation of the Scout Movement.

The main Scouting organisation on the UK is The scout Association, and they cover Scouting in the whole of the UK, which includes England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

The Boy Scouts of America, The (UK ) Scout Association, and Scouts Austrailia all belong to WOSM and memebers usualy wear the purple membership badge, or world crest as i beleive its known as in the USA.

Girl Guides Australia, Girl scouts USA, and Girl Guides (UK) all belong to the World Assocaition of Girl Guides and Girl scouts (WaGGS)

both are different orgnisations.

If a National scouting organisation, and memeber of WOSM dropped the God part ( or relegiouspart )of their promise/oath then it would be worth sitting up and taking notice, but as we are talking about another non Scouting organisation (Waggs) and what they do has little, or no effect on Wosm based Scouting.

To overturn the God part would require permision and authorisation from WOSM, if you read up on it, and try and get an understanfding of international Scouting you will probably come to the same conclusion as me, in that it will most likly never happen- there are only a few National Scouting organisations who are members of WOSM who have God as an option in their promise/oath, and these exceptions are anything but new.

If we are goign to look into the history of things then maybe the oulander promise (oath) as originaly written by Baden-Powell could be resurected ...

On my honor I promise to do my best:

To render service to my country;

To help other people at all times;

To obey the Scout Law.

and the original Scout law ( no longer in use in the UK )

A Scouts honour is to be trusted

A Scout is loyal

A Scouts duty is to be useful and to help others

A Scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other Scout no matter what social class the other

scout belongs

A Scout is courteous

A Scout is a friend to all animals

A Scout obeys orders

A Scout smiles and whistles

A Scout is thrifty.

And for comparison the current UK Promise and Law

The Scout Promise

On my honour, I promise that I will do my best

To do my duty to God and to the Queen,

To help other people

And to keep the Scout Law

The Scout Law

A Scout is to be trusted.

A Scout is loyal.

A Scout is friendly and considerate.

A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.

A Scout has courage in all difficulties.

A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.

A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.

and to bring things back round to Australia, it olooks like this..

On my honour

I promise that I will do my best

To do my duty to my God, and

To Australia

To help other people, and

To live by the Scout Law

OR

On my honour

I promise that I will do my best

To do my duty to my God, and

To the Queen of Australia

To help other people, and

To live by the Scout Law

THE SCOUT LAW

A Scout is trustworthy

A Scout is loyal

A Scout is helpful

A Scout is friendly

A Scout is cheerful

A Scout is considerate

A Scout is thrifty

A Scout is courageous

A Scout is respectful

A Scout cares for the environment