PACK15NISSAN

packsaddle:

First of all, the Bible is not a story it is history. To address the difference between what Jesus did and a cheap parlor trick is that with parlor tricks that outcome is controlled. Jesus knew the outcome, He did not force things to happen they he wished, he simply knew what would happen if He possed the ultimatum.

Jesus did show the men what the right thing was, He opened their eyes to the fact that everyone has sinned, we have all made mistakes, so don't jump on some one for their faults while overlooking your own.

My evidence that all have sinned is Biblical. The Bible directly says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God is omniscient, He does know exactly who has done what. I do not personally know about everyones sins I simply believe God when He says that all have sinned.

I am not condoning the acts of the people in the aformentioned passage, I am explaining what was going on. The purpose of knowing that these people where acting according to the law plays into account regarding their motives. Their motives where much different then those you used in your parallel, I was simply making a point that your comparison was not an accurate one.

ScoutMomSD:

What exactly is the purpose of quoting John 8? To whom and what context do you think it applies?

packsaddle:

It is clear that you have no understanding of the Bible, perhaps knowledge but no understanding. Jesus knew exactly what would happen before He did or said anything. Secondly, all people have sinned and deep down we all know it, whether we choose to admit it on the surface or not. This was not a hate crime much in the manner that you described your alternate senario. The woman mentioned was caught in the act of adultery and by Jewish law she was to be stoned. They where not so much acting out of hate but rather taking vengence in accordance to the law.

This is one of the things that differs from council to council. The G2SS does not mention anything regarding flushable toilets, just to maintain council regulations. However the BALOO leader is a must no matter which council your in.

In our council we are required to have flush toilets and running water to camp. Also, we have to have the campsite approved by council along with the tour permit. I don't always agree with the toilets rule but with Tiger Cubs I guess it is probably better to be on the safer side.

DanKroh:

Way to prove an important point (not brought up here but none the less true), that despite an extensive vocabulary one can still be ignorant and downright stupid. Although I do applaud your use of the thesaurus.

At no point was I backpeddling nor remending any of my comments. I was thanking some one for understand that my faith says that I am correct in my actions and that others are wrong, just as his says he is right and I am wrong.

I didn't simply say what I was thinking, I was asked a question and I answered it with honesty. I will not water down my answer because it might offend some one. Religion did not make me say anything, I say what I believe because I have faith that my beliefs are correct.

Even though you don't want to hear my opinions (I really don't care if you do or don't) you are not the devil incarnate. However, anyone who does not confess that Christ is the Lord and ask for forgiveness of their sin will go to hell.

I realize that so many people wish I would either not make these comments or at least put the IMHO so that I can protect myself from scrutiny but it is not my humble opinion. It is fact, if I did not believe this then what faith would I have, perhaps one like yours.

Educating your children about other religions is not my beef here, it is that so many people say they believe this or that but that they want their children to experience other religions so they can choose. How is that faith in your own beliefs? I don't want my kids trying out Buddhism or Islam becasue they are wrong. I want them to know that no matter what title you wish to attach or remove yourself from, belief in Christ is the only way into heaven.

If you choose not believe me, that is your choice but I have done my duty to God by letting you know what his word says. I am not simply taking the neutral, don't offend some one side, if my religion offends you, then simply don't listen, but don't expect me not to talk.

Novice_Cubmaster:

Thank you for you response, finally some one who really understands what faith is all about. Faith is believing what you say you believe in not matter who it offends and what the consequences are. I appreciate and respect anyone who will stand by their believes admist the fire.

To the many others who seem to want to comment on my beliefs and imply that I am not being tolerant. Not allowing me to make the comments I choose to make based upon my religious beliefs would make you intolerant of me.

I do not push my beliefs off on anyone, including my children. I give them a christian education just as the school systems do, the best way that we can. What they do with the knowledge they are presented with defines free will. Yes, while they live under my roof they must go to church, do they have to believe, Absolutely not, but they do have to go. What is the point of believing something if you don't believe it is the right way and that your children would benefit from it. All this non-sense regarding educating your children with multiple religions and letting them choose the one that best fits them just shows that you obviously don't really believe your own beliefs.

ScoutMomSD,

IMHO, yes, it my job as a parent it the job of every parent to religiously educate their children. I believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, so yes Jewish parents that don't teach there children about Jesus are bad parents. As are any other parents that mislead their children with false hopes of what will get them to heaven. If I didn't believe this I wouldn't have faith.

I really don't want to get into a religious debate but I will defend against attacks.

I teach my children (7 and 10) about Jesus because as a parent that is my job. Whether or not they choose to believe or make a profession of faith in Christ is theirs. That is not removing or hindering any of their rights, it is the basis of faith and freedom, that they will see what is right and choose to follow it.

Besides, children don't have all the rights that adults do. That is why schools are aloud to get away with limiting so many thinks they do without 'violating their rights' because they simply say those right don't exist to a child yet.

Does a child or anyone for that matter have a right to be an atheist? Of course they do, however it does not mean they have a right to be a member of BSA.

Every parent has an obligation to educate their children and that includes religious education, do you force them to take it, no but you teach as the truth and let them do with it as they will. That is exactly what the public school system does, it teaches things as fact (most of which cannot be proven) and expects the child to respond accordingly, not they believe it.

On a side note, Communism is a horrible thing, however Markism which is what Communist attempt to practice is a great idea. It is a utopian world, not practical, but ideal.

Lisabob:

To be fair you did say that the boys DL did not have a say in this.

Maybe I missed it, but what exactly is your role in the pack? Are you the Committee Chair, Cubmaster, or Charter Org. Rep? If not I would say that you need not do anything because it isn't your responsibility to deal with this issue. Supposing that you ARE in one of those roles though...

That is from your earlier post.

As far as my other comments, they stem from comments from Knight saying:

As long as there is some spark there (ie, not complete rejection of the Almighty under any name or form), he can continue. But, this is also crucial parent decision. They can sign his requirements as Akelas - and the religious requirements are squarely their responsibility. If they totally reject God, then yes, it is time to part company. If they complete the exercises (and sign their son's book), then he stays. Nobody but the parents could sign the boys "Duty to God" requirements in the Packs we've been in.

and also from ScoutNut:

The bottom line is that in Cub Scouts, even for a Webelos, the religious requirements are the sole responsibility of the parents. For a family that has no "official" religious affiliation, the parent is considered the boys "religious leader". If the parents state that their Webelos has "done his best", and requirement #8E has been completed, than that, as the saying goes, is that. It is wrong to second guess it, and wrong to question, at this point, what the boy has meant for the last 4.5 years when saying the Promise.

It is not the parents sole responsibility. A leaders job is not only to lead the boys, but to assist them in there growth and advancement within scouting. If you know parents are atheists then they should not be able to sign off what they feel is fair, this demeens the achievement for all the other boys.

Whether the boy is an atheist or not matter in earning his religious requirements at this age. I agree that a boy his age is not capable of fully deciding whether he believes there is a God or not. Let's look at the requirements, he can't do 8d because there is no religious emblem for atheists, therefore he must do 8e. None of the parts of 8e can he legitimately do if the family is atheist because it is not a religion, rather a lack there of.

Allowing the parents to sign off of this would not be bending the rules, it would be breaking them.

I have said and agree that everyone needs to sit down and discuss things to find out exactly what this families belief system is but if they are atheists then they don't belong in scouts. Whether or not everyone agrees with me, I don't really care. Just know this is how it would be handle in my pack.

Also, Scoutnut: it is not wrong for a DL to question the advancement of a scout, it is their duty. If I suspect a boy did not do something that their parents signed off on, I talk to the boy and if I feel he probably didn't do it, then I go to the parents and discuss that the WDL signs off on advancement and that I need to see what he has done. Doing your best is not simply handing out advancement and rank for trying or attempting, if you think that, then perhaps it is good that you are not in my pack.

First of all, if this boy is an atheist then everytime he has said the cub scout promise he had lied and his parents have looked the other way. How can you promise to do your duty to God if you don't believe God exists. He might as well say he promises to be kind to all unicorns and leprecons.

Secondly, he can't complete the requirements for his Webelos rank because doesn't believe in God. There is no religous emblem for atheists (no Me and Me or the Big Bang and Me program). That leaves out 8d as an option, so he must do 8e. There are no parts of 8e that an atheist could trully and honestly do, not without some looking the other way and modification which isn't allowed.

Finally, the rules are clear, if he is atheist he must go. If he or anyone else doesn't like it then you don't have to be a part of this private organization. I would love to see him join the school basketball team and say that he doesn't believe in dribbling the ball so he shouldn't have to. Rules are rules, if you don't like them then don't play.

As far as others signing off on Webelos Advancement, yes it is allowed however when you appoint some one they should understand the requirements before signing off. If his parents are atheists then they can't understand the religious requirements and therefore should not and cannot sign off.

Have a conference with the boy, his parents, the COR and the Cubmaster and maybe even some people from your council and discuss the matter first.

I do disagree with those who think a DL doesn't have a say in this. As a WDL, if I had a boy who was an atheist I would bring it the attention of the CM and COR. Also, I would not give the boy his rank because of the religious requirements until all things had been cleared up.

Lisabob,

I agree that all things need be cleared up and that there should be a consensus of exactly what this boy and his family's beliefs are before continuing.

Assuming this boy is a true atheist:

Although you comments seem to be having the feelings of all parties involved and they appear to be in the spirit of scouting, the parents of this boy can not simply sign off of this.

First of all, this is Webelos, the Den Leader is supposed to be signing off, not mommy and daddy. How would this be getting him ready for Boy Scouts, saying hey if the requirements don't fit get mom and dad to sign off on what they think is fair.

Secondly, you can't alter a requirement. There is no way this boy can complete the religious requirements and cannot obtain rank.

Finally, BSA prohibits atheists from being members. Although some may not like this (I do however agree with it), a rule is a rule. It should be opps sorry you misunderstood but either believe in God or out you go.

NeilLup: I can understand your concerns and perhaps even your experiences with burned out Webelos. However, perhaps you or whomever you are drawing your experience from went about it in the wrong way. Boys need to experience or at least have the chance to experience all that scouting has to offer not just what the leaders and/or parents care to show them.

I will have gone through 19 activity badges by the time my boys move up, some parts are homework but a good portion is done in patrol meetings. Every boy has a chance to sample everything and when they come to something they don't like, they usually don't do the homework and don't finish the badge which is fine to.

I realize that some times experience leads the way and can point you in the right direction, you learn from the mistakes and success of others. However, you must admit experience is never complete, because of differences. No 2 groups are the same, you must adapt to your group and until you have seen it all and tried it all you can't assume the outcome will be negative.

NeilLup: I can understand where you are coming from worrying aobut the boys burning themselves out by doing too much. So far this year my boys (Webelos 1's) have done 10 badges and will have done 15 by the end of the year. Some of them are do at home badges, and others have been short and easy badges due to the help I have. Doing all 20 badges with my boys was their choice and they are having a fun, I feel they are getting a chance to sample a lot of different things instead of doing what I pick. When they become boy scouts they will know what they like and pursue that, and they probably won't do the badges that are similar to the those in Webelos that they didn't have fun with. They are getting a taste of many different things this way, I don't force anything on these boys.

There are so many badges that can be done in a den meeting or in 2, why not have them work to 'Do their Best' not the minimum. My job as a Webelos Leader is to prepare them for Boy Scouts and that is exactly what I am doing. There are ways to work in the 7 methods of scouting into the badges you just have to plan for it.

The 13-550 is the right number, it is the exact book the instructor used. However, my problem lies in the fact that I can't get a hold of one of those books. My council (whether they are right or wrong) says they can't get me one and that I can't buy one. When I looked online at scoutstuff, I can't find it there either. So I really don't care if I am supposed to or not supposed to have the book, rather where do I get it.

The past weekend I took the Cub Scout Shooting Sports Certification course at our local University of Scouting. The instructor read out of a book (blue cover) that I believe to be the BSA Shooting Sports Guide but I did not see the cover nor did I think to ask. He said that we should all get one, then when I went to talk to our scout store and some people at council, I was informed that the only people who get this book are those who attend National Camp School. I was told the book wasn't even sold through national, so basically there was no way I could get it, unless given it.

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of this book? I am planning to teach either BB's or Archery at Cub Scout Day Camp this summer and would really like to have a copy of it.

We had a problem with our OWL training in my district. Both OWL and BALOO are held only once a year, OWL had to be postponed due to the "gas shortage" and such a long drive to council camp. They rescheduled it for November and it is closer, however it is on the same day as BALOO. When I called council and spoke to the training chair they said it was the only date they could get and not to worry because if I took OWL I could use it as BALOO for all camping purposes. So the next time I fill out a camping form not only do I have the OWL that I should have but I have the BALOO that I have to have, at least according to my council.

I have a friend that works for AB Emblem and they manufacture a lot of the patches that are used for scouting. My Webelos Den became a patrol and we are having a custom patch made for them. These patches may not be BSA approved patches but they are the correct size and everything and made the same way as every other patch is made so I am letting them use it.

It cost us about $50 for 50 patches (that is the smallest number they will make for you), but that means each boy in the patrol will get 2 patches, one for uniform and one for the back pack or something at around $3 each person and still leave us some extras if new boys join. The patches that BSA has approved are really plain and boring, not something my boys wanted. Does that mean that we are breaking the uniform guidelines or something?

I think you may be reading more into this than what is intended.

You can use Outdoorsman toward the Webelos Rank, because it falls outside of the Physical Skills Group (Fitness) and Community Group (Citizen). You can not use Readyman since it is the Community Group with Citizen.

If Outdoorsman is used toward the Webelos Rank, when AOL time comes around you are going to have to do another badge. There must be 8 badges earned to achieve AOL.

Citizen

Fitness

Outdoorsman

Readyman

One from Mental Skills Group

One from Technology Group

One of choice

and another one of choice to substitute for using Outdoorsman for Webelos Badge

Earn five more activity badges in addition to the three you already earned for the Webelos badge. (this is from the AOL requirements, there has to be 8 in total and Citzen, Fitness, Readyman, and Outdoorsman must be earned).

Just a question, what do you do for a scout who is an atheist. Is there a Me and Me program or the Big Bang and Me, for them?

i personally think it is a good idea to challenge boys to practice and explore their faith in every aspect of scouting. I don't know about some of the upper God and Country programs but at the Cub Scout level, you do not have to attend a church to earn the emblem or to complete the requirements for advancement. Those who don't attend church simply have to either find a church to do it with or find some one qualified to do it with.

We are planning to do our God and Family with our Webelos den as a whole. All of the boys are protestant and no parents have any objections. Myself and one of my assistants are youth directors, Sunday school and Bible school teachers, so we are more than capable of leading it.

My Webelos den just became a patrol, they are the Wolverines. It doesn't have any prolific deep meaning, but it is what they wanted. We are working on the citizen badge and to show them some rights (like voting) I let each boy nominate a patrol name (some didn't) and then we voted for the one they wanted. It was a chance to tie everything together and teach them that this is there patrol not mine and within reason they get to make the decisions.

To add a little extra fun and "coolness" to the whole thing, I gave each boy a sheet with 6, 2" circles on it and am letting them design what they want our patch to look like. Next week we will vote on which one we want to be our design. I have a friend who works for a company that makes a lot of patches for the boy scouts and she is going to get it made for us. In the end it is cheaper than buying them from scout supply and the boys have a custom patch that they designed. I think it is really helping them understand that they are a team and they work together and make choices, giving them some independance and since of pride.

Personally, I can't wait to see what they pick as their patch.

Yesterday evening, after seeing that the registrar was obviously wrong, I called the guy who is handling the DE position (we don't have a DE right now) and he said that finishing the 5th grade was the cut off.

He also went on to say that if the boy, parents, and I wanted to put him on an accelerated program we could but we didn't have too. In fact he said if the boy was 15 and still hadn't finished the 5th grade he could still be a Cub Scout.

Thanks for the info ladies and gents.

I have already spoken with the council registrar and she told me that once he is 11 that he has to move up. However, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, I have several boys in the correct age/grade that have birthdays in October, that would mean they had to crossover before the end of their Web. 2 year.

There has be something in writing some where to spells this out. Personally I thought if you didn't turn 12 during the current scouting year you could stay.

I am the Webelos 1 leader for my Pack (I know Webelos are Webelos, there are no 1's or 2's), and I have a boy who is in 4th grade and was held back a year. He is currently 10 and will be 11 on July 14 of next year.

My question is what is the age limit for Cub Scouts?

When do boys have to move up to Boy Scouts?

I am trying to figure out if we need to have a special program for him so that he can reach AOL before he has to cross over.

We are in Daniel Boone Council in the South East. I know that a lot of our stuff is cheaper down here, our camp was $60 for boys and $45 for adults. You got a $10 discount for being a leader, I think in total I paid $105 ($10 extra for an adult t-shirt). It was 4 days and 3 nights like everyone elses. It was a good quality program, they didn't skimp on anything.

Our Cub Day Camp was $60 for the week was $15 discount if volunteered for at least 3 days. It ran from 8am - 5pm. They had snacks and t-shirts, the only thing was as others mention the Pack picks up awards and we had to pack our own lunch.

Move to the South, cause grits makes e'ry tang cheaper.

Thanks for all the input everyone.

However, one problem is going to be is this is a Pack trip, not just a den outing. I may have Tigers or maybe just Bears and Webelos, I have no idea and we can't fairly call it a Pack event and exclude some of the boys, especially when we are speculating that they wouldn't be able to make it.

Secondly, not trying to be selfish, but I can't afford to drive up to Virginia to check the trail with gas at $3.75 a gallon around here.

This is supposed to be a fun outing for everyone, the only thing I know to do is to require that parents attend, so that if their son can't make it they will have to wait with him until we can drive up and get them.

I will let the other leaders know to go over bike safety and I will make sure that everyone knows their child should know how to ride reasonably well before going. Also, I am going to mention in the Pack meeting and on the sign up that safety equipment is required by everyone (adults too) and that anyone who doesn't have it when we meet to leave, can't go. The only thing I can do is make sure everyone is informed that this a 17 mile ride, that is not too hard, but that there is no way for some one to follow us by car if some one wants to quit, and then let parents make the desicion.

I have to agree with the majority here. Although, as stated there are no direct instructions saying not to count things twice (except in some Webelos achievements) why have 2 different achievements or electives if you can do one thing and count it for both.

Obviously, this is highly opinionated, but if why have requirements 3A and 5E (in original example) if building a reciple holder would count twice. The child is only learning how to bend the rules and take short cuts, which by the way will prove to be a big disappointment in higher ranks. I didn't allow my son to get 2 for 1's and neither did most parents I knew and they all earned rank and several arrow points. There really is no need for it.