PACK15NISSAN

Well that was a very politcal answer, don't actually address the question rather dance around it.

The question was intended to be general but I guess I need to be more specific.

I have 2 kids who I have been informed by the former DL whose sign off on things the child has not done. The former DL just looked the other way and moved on, I am not that way. What I want to know is can the parents appeal to the CM and overturn me or do I have final say, or are others in CO involved?

One of the parents is good friends with the CM and the other parent is the CM. I am not going to let a child get credit for something they didn't do and I won't except lying or cheating as a way to let a child advance. I simply want to know what course of actions I have.

I intend to have all work brought in or at least pictures of the work being done and will be talking to the boys about what they did so I can get an understanding of what they have really done. I realize that is a parent cheats it is a bad message to the child but still advancing does also. It is like telling little Jimmy that his daddy is a cheater and lier but thats okay as long as he isn't.

This is somewhat of a spin off of another thread.

If a DL and the CM have a disagreement over advancement does the CM trump the DL?

In a previous post some one mentioned a DL not advancing a child based on them not being "Active" in the den, if this or a question over completed achievements comes into play who determines if the child advances?

I know that at the Webelos level the DL signs off on all achievements but can a parent appeal to the CM over discrepancies or does the DL have the final say? Are other people invovled?

While at Webelos Resident Camp this last weekend there was an inspection and one of the gentleman had 10 plus knots on his shirt pocket and I thought man that is a lot of knots.

How many knots and or medals can some one wear at all times?

For some reason I thought (that is the first problem my wife will tell you) that I read some where you could only wear 6 knots or medals or a combination of 6 knots and metals.

Where exactly can I find this information in the BSA Uniform Insignia Guide?

The best track for you depends on what you are looking for.

Wood (cheaper but inconsistant

Aluminum (expensive but fast and consistant)

PVC (between the wood and aluminum)

Aluminum is the best track to get in my opinion, because it lasts longer is easy to take apart and store and gives fast, consistant runs. You will need to get a track at least 42 feet long but you won't have to run multiple races because one lane is faster than another. Also a time is great for an aluminum track because races are very fast and can be very close at the finish line, gives a clear winner without involving any human error.

You have a lot to choose from on a derby track besides material like length, number of lanes, and finish on some aluminum tracks (anodized or not). Look at your funding, and your space (both for the track setup and for storage). BestTrack and Micro Wizard both make good aluminum tracks, Micro Wizard also sells a good wood track. Derby Magic makes the PVC track and there are tons of sites out there for building your wood track or to buy aluminum plating for a wood track which will speed it up and give it more consistancy.

Just got back yesterday from Webelos Resident Camp and my son and I had a blast. The food was good, the staff was good, and the activities were good, especially the OA dancers teaching our kids to a authentic Cherokee Indian Bear Dance.

I only walked away with a few complaints, one being how far we had to walk to our campsite (over 1/2 mile each way) and some parents who stayed with their boys who where stick in the muds.

In the end with lost 3 boys (all had the dad with them) and kept one from going home (no dad with him) and before we left he said he wished he could stay and was ready for next year. Truly this was something I will always remember.

Let me know about your camp

Not so much on the original subject but more so on what the debate has become.

I am sure it already occurs in California, but I wonder how long before we all have to deal with a father/father or mother/mother camping expereince. I have my person views, which unlike others I will not share but according the BSA guidelines that would be fine. A scout and his 2 dads or 2 moms could tent together. Maybe this should be on the political forum, just a fore thought that we may all see in the near future.

Everyone has been a big help, I am going to take a lot to heart and not worry about, just take care of my son and leave the rest to the parents and the council. However, I did break a little, yesterday I called our CM to find out what the deal with his son was and he will not be attending. He did thank me though for keeping him informed and checking up on everything, probably more of a diplomatic thank you then sincere but I will take it none the less.

Just a quick question:

Are all of the boys 10?

If not, they won't complete their AOL until December. Arrow of Light requirement 1 says:

Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelso badge.

If not all of the are 10 or haven't been 10 for at least six months by October or November they could still cross they just wouldn't have earned their AOL.

Good thing our council camp is so far up in the woods, there is no cell phone reception for anyone and there is only one landline, with no answering machine.

Obviously my council is different from most, because scouts sign up individually, at least from our Pack. Perhaps there are other Packs in our council that did it as a unit but I don't know. I am sure that is why the deadline for registration was a month before the actual Camp (starts this Thursday), so that all the applicants can get in and the director can sort them into patrols. The director always tries to make sure all boys from the same Pack are together, but there are times (late registration) when boys just have to be put where there is room. Our council does not have a problem with volunteers, they require 1 adult from each Pack if the Pack is sending more than 3 boys.

Maybe I am taking to much from this, the boys in my den have set goals and I want to help them achieve it, and I guess I have to figure in parent involvement or lack there of.

ScoutNut: I still think regardless if we register as a unit or not that is my business as the WDL to know who is going to camp. If that one boy is put into another group then he will not be happy, and I like to try to keep all the boys who are going to camp working on the same activity badges and Badge requirements during den or patrol time. If I have 3 that have done X and 1 that has done Y, it makes it that much harder to get them all on the same page.

Not all the planning is done by the camp staff either. I have to make sure that I provide transportation for all the boys going. If I have one that is a "maybe" then it makes it hard to plan for a possible extra, especially right now since that means taking 1 vehicle if he doens't go and 2 if he does.

As far as the telling the parents the truth, I do agree that I will have to tell them to contact whomever is "in charge" of the activity and see what they say. However, the truth would be "sure your son can go, deadlines don't mean anything in our council, besides the CM doesn't care, why should you". It is going to be a real problem one day when a parent doesn't send their child or can't because of a deadline and the CM's son goes. I just think it is a kick to all of those who follow the rules.

I realize that policy may not support this, but I was told that leaders could where whatever neckerchief, slide, and hat they wished as long as it was BSA. Personally I don't like the picnic blanket look of the Webelos hat and neckerchief so I opted for a Cub Scout hat and a Boy Scout neckerchief that matches color.

Again just opinion here, but as long as you are setting the example of wearing the uniform it shouldn't matter which neckerchief and slide you use.

As far as your son is concerned, it would interested for him to wear it a couple of times and tell people about it, but I would think it best for him to match the other boys.

We have the two-tier pricing in effect for our council, early registration was by June 15th and late was up until June 30th. I like the idea of an incentive to sign up early or at least a penalty for signing up late however you look at it.

We have never made reservations by unit for Cub Day Camp or Resident Camp, it is an individual thing. I contacted everyone multiple times to remind them and answer questions about it and out of 8 solid boys we have 3 going and maybe the CM's son.

What I am supposed to do in the future when I parent who is late signing their kid up comes to me and ask can I still register, tell them "no the deadline passed", "yes, they always take people late", or "you will have to talk to such and such and see if they will except him"?

I guess I am just aggrevated that some one in power is abusing it rather than setting the example.

In our Pack we try to keep the vests down to Pack Meetings or special events, we treat them just like any special awards. That keeps them "special", not just something you where every week.

I think a parade or anything out in the public (minus something that might be dirty) is a great time for the vest or any other awards, it gives the kids a chance to show off what they have done.

Now don't shoot the messenger because I do not know everything about the situation, but we had a Webelos last year who would not join Boy Scouts because he couldn't wear his red vest. He wore it all the time and became dependant on that vest to feel good about his accomplishments.

Our CM seems to think that the rules don't apply to him. I am not sure if it is because he is the CM or a local Elem. Principal, but he seems to just ignore deadlines for events and register his kid anytime. Our Webelos Resident camp is coming up this weekend, the deadline to register was the end of June and he still hasn't signed his kid up. When I asked if his son was coming, he said he didn't know yet, then when I mentioned the deadline had passed a long time ago he said "they will still let him in, they always do".

I realize that eventually I am going to deal with other parents trying to push the deadline too. I am not sure whether to talk with him, some one with the CO or to just ignore the problem. I realize that if the program director of the event is going to let him in that really it doesn't have too much of an effect on me, but I really need to know who and how many of my kids are participating in an event to plan.

So I guess my question is what do I do?

Is this normal for a CM (do they have special rules)?

Concerning the counting of a project for two awards: Last year, we did WCA as a bear den and we did not allow parents to count the electives done for WCA toward Arrow Points because of the whole double dipping thing (of course we made some very mad). I have never read anything that says you can't count one activity for two awards or achievements (except for Webelos), but our interpretation was that the boys where earning an award and the electives where requirements of that award not just something extra.

I agree with most people here in saying that the purpose of ranks, achievements, and awards is for the boys to work toward and earn something not to rack up or bend the rules. I am not implying that is what you are trying to do AlabamaDan. However, we ran into a lot in Bears and I am sure you will see it in Wolves too that some parents want to do as little work as possible and get the most for their boys.

We did a cleanup around a local lake for our service project and did a few other requirements while we where there. If you can get people to come, a Saturday afternoon would be great for this, you can get a lot done of the WCA award in one outing if you plan well.

I haven't visited any other camps so I can't really compare, but Camp Daniel Boone is probably not too far from where you at. We have great facilites, at least that is the comments from other Troops. We are in Western North Carolina.

We are supposed to pick a patrol name the first evening, and then work on a den yell. I can handle the patrol name, the flag, the song, and even the skit they want us to do. Can some one give me an example of a den yell?

I am still kind of new to things in Cub Scouts, we are headed to our Webelos Resident Camp in just about two weeks and they said each den needs a den yell. Can some one please explain to me exactly what this is?

I am not sure what our Council's policy is, but our Pack puts a cutoff date for achievements and awards one week before our crossover (usually first week in June). The is allows our Advancement Chair to have to input everything in the computer and get everything. She doesn't make a whole lot of exceptions on this either.

Our Council uses online advancement but they still except paper forms too. I don't know what who said it, but having parents go and get ranks and other advancements when their child has finished has never been a problem in our council. Our council will only let the CM, ACM, and Advancement Chair pick up awards, unless they call and give permission to some one else. Parent don't have an option to just get it, in fact neither do DL's.

I know this is not on the original topic but it is where it has ended up. I hope more council's move toward online advancement, this keeps a backup, not just a card in case something is lost. My son is now a Webelos and got his new uniform and I have to gather up all his cards before I can go and get new ranks for the uniform (kind of stinks).

Please note: I am not 100% sure about this is BSA policy (I am sure some one will correct me if it's not).

All leaders have to be registered with the BSA and you can only register for one position. Therefore you can't technically be a ACM and a Tiger DL or Tiger ADL.

You could kind of do what John said, be the ACM and help with the Tigers. If you Pack is like ours this is a lot of planning for the ACM but he doesn't really have to do a lot during den meetings. You could go "assist" with the Tigers and still be available as the ACM if needed during den meetings. The same things goes for campouts and outings, as long as you plan and organize what is needed and available as the ACM, you can still be with you son in Tigers and be the unofficial ADL.

Although our CM is not the most modivated in the world he is very practical, if he know that some one else was willing and able to take control then he would step down and let them take over, with the approval of everyone involved.

I am not trying to take over some one's job. My son is a Webelos 1 and I will be his DL until he crosses over into boy scouts. The point I was trying to make by saying that other people felt said I should be the CM was that people notice the job he does. Like I said before I wouldn't take the CM job right now, I would rather be a DL.

I don't know a whole lot about our CO, our previous (long running) CM held the job through 2 of his boys (6-7) years. He did everything and always had all his ducks in a row and never needed anyone to do anything he just did it all (which is not the way to be either). He is a deacon in our CO (church), but the new CM doesn't attend it and neither do many of the leaders so we will all have to work on establishing a relationship with them.

Our CM does more than share the load, he has 2 ASM's and countless other people who help with everything. Don't get me wrong he is not a bad guy, he is a local elementary principal, and on the local soccer committee, he just has too much and really didn't want another big commitment.

However, he earned the nickname "paper cubmaster", he loves his name on every piece of paper saying he is helping with this or doing this, leading that, etc. but never really does anything and half the time doesn't even show up. He also has the attitude of the CM trump card, that no matter if there are deadlines or no-exceptions, that he can get in or get his kids in because he is the CM. The deadline for our Resident Camp was June 30, and he still hasn't registered his boy, I asked him if he was coming and reminded of the date and he said he will be there, they always let people in late (still hasn't registered).

Multiple people from my Pack and several leaders from other Packs have suggested that I take over, I just don't feel that I have the experience. I was never a scout, my son just started scouts in Feb. and I just took over as the Webelos leader, I don't fully know everything that is going on or how things work but I am motivated and can manage well. I really don't want to give up working with the boys in my den but I want the best for the Pack (help the Pack grow). Any body want to share some outside suggestions?

(our whole pack is runs on the why do today what you can do tomorrow and some one else will handle that policy. I like the what is today but yesterday's tomorrow and if I don't do it who else will philosophy)

Our current CM is by far qualified for the position but doesn't seem to do a good job. We had a really motivated CM for a while but due to a sudden job transfer our current CM stepped in, and it is apparent that he doesn't really like the job. No one else in our Pack has been a CM or ACM before so he doesn't have a suitable replacement.

Are we better off with some one who might not know as much or have as much experience with scouting but is motivated? I realize that anyone can be "trained" for the position but does a Quality leader beat a Qualified leader?

Personally I would love to have the position but I wouldn't trade working with the boys one on one for it.

This is what the BSA says about when a boy can start working on their next rank:

In the Cub Scout program, all boys in a den work toward a badge that is geared to their level of development. If the Wolf badge is completed before the end of the program year, a boy may work on electives to earn Arrow Points, but he may not begin working on the requirements for the Bear badge. His work on the Bear badge will begin the next program year, when he graduates into a Bear den.

Officially, boys can start working on there badges after they cross over into a new rank. Our crossover is in June, so after that date, boys that where Wolves are now Bears and start working on that rank, same for Tigers or any other rank.